RANK! Better Career: Bourque vs Lidstrom vs Coffey vs Stevens

[OzzyFan]

Rank who had the better careers from best to worst: Bourque vs Lidstrom vs Coffey vs Stevens. One might not belong, but I want to see people's thoughts.

Vote and Debate away!

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[Sonny Lamateena]

1 Lidstrom - 4 Cups, 7 Norris, Conn Smythe, Olympic Gold
2 Bourque - 1 Cup, 5 Norris, Career Leader in G,A,Pts by a defenseman
3 Coffey - 4 Cups, 3 Norris


4 Stevens - 3 Cups, Conn Smythe

 

[quoipourquoi]

I imagine 4 out of 5 doctors would say Bourque, Lidstrom, Coffey, Stevens.

 

[Big Phil]

I imagine 4 out of 5 doctors would say Bourque, Lidstrom, Coffey, Stevens.

That's my order too. No one was as good for as LONG as Bourque at the LEVEL of Bourque.

Also, I think if you are going to give credit to Lidstrom for winning the 2006 Gold medal then we should credit Bourque for 1984 and 1987.

Either way, Bourque all the way here.

 

[Sprague Cleghorn]

I imagine 4 out of 5 doctors would say Bourque, Lidstrom, Coffey, Stevens.

Agree.

 

[Hardyvan123]

1 Lidstrom - 4 Cups, 7 Norris, Conn Smythe, Olympic Gold
2 Bourque - 1 Cup, 5 Norris, Career Leader in G,A,Pts by a defenseman
3 Coffey - 4 Cups, 3 Norris


4 Stevens - 3 Cups, Conn Smythe

Switch Coffey and Stevens around and that would be my list.

One could switch around the 1st 2 guys as well (they are very close) but there is a significant gap between them and Stevens (who I think very highly of)

 

[Sonny Lamateena]

Switch Coffey and Stevens around and that would be my list.

One could switch around the 1st 2 guys as well (they are very close) but there is a significant gap between them and Stevens (who I think very highly of)

I based my rankings of their careers on a combination of individual and team success and the prestige of each award, championship, or achievement that the player had. I think Bourque was a better defensemen than Lidstrom but the 3 extra Stanley Cups, 2 extra Norris, 1 Conn Smythe and prestige of an Olympic Gold Medal as opposed to other best vs best tournaments is why I ranked Lidstrom 1st. I think Coffey is close to both Lidstrom and Bourque under these criteria but Stevens is a distant 4th.

 

[Big Phil]

Switch Coffey and Stevens around and that would be my list.

One could switch around the 1st 2 guys as well (they are very close) but there is a significant gap between them and Stevens (who I think very highly of)

Nothing against Stevens of course who is a lock cinch HHOFer and one of the greats, but if you were building a team from scratch would you take him over Coffey?

 

[landy92mack29]

bourque had the best

 

[shazariahl]

I imagine 4 out of 5 doctors would say Bourque, Lidstrom, Coffey, Stevens.

That was the order I thought as soon as I saw the thread.

 

[JaysCyYoung]

I consider Bourque the second best defender ever, so he takes first in this order for me. First Team All-Star as a nineteen year-old and First Team All-Star as a forty year-old. One of my favourite statistics in sports and his combination of consistency, longevity, and elite performance is the greatest at his position and only matched by Howe overall in the sport.

Lidstrom is an extremely close second and one couldn't be blamed for choosing him over Bourque on the basis of his stellar international career and extensive team success. A Conn Smythe, four Cups, and Olympic gold is exceptional.

Coffey-Stevens is the closest and most difficult choice for me and as a Stevens fan (and fan of physically-dominating blue liners in general) it pains me to rank Coffey ahead of him. However, both were similar defencemen until post-1994 when Stevens transitioned from an offensively-oriented defender to a stay-at-home guy and Coffey was still winning Norrises in 1995. Stevens was a pretty similar defender stylistically to Coffey until then, but Coffey's offensive peak is the best out of any defenceman not named Orr. 48 goals by a defenceman in a single season is a record that will likely never be broken. To me it outweighs the advantage Stevens has in the last third of their careers when Coffey became a borderline liability and Stevens was the best shutdown guy in the game.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Nothing against Stevens of course who is a lock cinch HHOFer and one of the greats, but if you were building a team from scratch would you take him over Coffey?

Yes I would take Stevens over Coffey if starting a team from scratch.

Scott was the better player as a rookie and simply was the better all around player to build from IMO.

Even in a single season one would need to compliment Coffey with the right type of guys, Stevens was a guy a team would and could build around.

 

[Hardyvan123]

I consider Bourque the second best defender ever, so he takes first in this order for me. First Team All-Star as a nineteen year-old and First Team All-Star as a forty year-old. One of my favourite statistics in sports and his combination of consistency, longevity, and elite performance is the greatest at his position and only matched by Howe overall in the sport.

Lidstrom is an extremely close second and one couldn't be blamed for choosing him over Bourque on the basis of his stellar international career and extensive team success. A Conn Smythe, four Cups, and Olympic gold is exceptional.

Coffey-Stevens is the closest and most difficult choice for me and as a Stevens fan (and fan of physically-dominating blue liners in general) it pains me to rank Coffey ahead of him. However, both were similar defencemen until post-1994 when Stevens transitioned from an offensively-oriented defender to a stay-at-home guy and Coffey was still winning Norrises in 1995. Stevens was a pretty similar defender stylistically to Coffey until then, but Coffey's offensive peak is the best out of any defenceman not named Orr. 48 goals by a defenceman in a single season is a record that will likely never be broken. To me it outweighs the advantage Stevens has in the last third of their careers when Coffey became a borderline liability and Stevens was the best shutdown guy in the game.

Sorry but are you confusing Stevens with someone else?

He was rock solid defensively from day 1 in the NHL and only by playing on teams with supreme talent and run and gun styles could Coffey outrun his lack of defensive play.

Just look at his TGA at ES and it says a lot about his defense, or rather lack of it.

 

[aemoreira1981]

I went with Raymond Jean Bourque in the poll.

I tossed out Paul Coffey because he was really an average D-man at best. I then tossed out Scott Stevens because while he was a great D-man (his worst +/- season was even in 1985-6), he just couldn't match Lidstrom and Bourque in offense.

The tie-breaker for me was offensive skill. People sometimes forget that Bourque was just below a point-a-game player in his career (0.980 PPG, 1579 -- 410-1169, over 1612 games), and was still a good 2-way defenseman into the twilight of his career. In terms of best D-men ever, I'd probably put Bourque in the top 5 at #3, behind Bobby Orr and Denis Potvin, and just ahead of Larry Robinson).

My final ranking: Bourque, Lidstrom, Stevens, and then Coffey.

 

[JaysCyYoung]

Sorry but are you confusing Stevens with someone else?

He was rock solid defensively from day 1 in the NHL and only by playing on teams with supreme talent and run and gun styles could Coffey outrun his lack of defensive play.

Just look at his TGA at ES and it says a lot about his defense, or rather lack of it.

Not in the least. Stevens was SIGNIFICANTLY better defensively in New Jersey than he was in his Washington days.

 

[monster_bertuzzi]

1)Lidstrom
2)Bourque
3)Coffey
4)Stevens

Perhaps im higher on Lids than most - but I value the four championships, Conn Smythe, and 2 extra Norris' than Bourque.

 

[Sprague Cleghorn]

I went with Raymond Jean Bourque in the poll.

I tossed out Paul Coffey because he was really an average D-man at best. I then tossed out Scott Stevens because while he was a great D-man (his worst +/- season was even in 1985-6), he just couldn't match Lidstrom and Bourque in offense.

The tie-breaker for me was offensive skill. People sometimes forget that Bourque was just below a point-a-game player in his career (0.980 PPG, 1579 -- 410-1169, over 1612 games), and was still a good 2-way defenseman into the twilight of his career. In terms of best D-men ever, I'd probably put Bourque in the top 5 at #3, behind Bobby Orr and Denis Potvin, and just ahead of Larry Robinson).

My final ranking: Bourque, Lidstrom, Stevens, and then Coffey.

An average defenseman does not have the 2nd best offensive skills among all defenseman in history.

 

[Plural]

I imagine 4 out of 5 doctors would say Bourque, Lidstrom, Coffey, Stevens.

My thoughts too.

Also, can you imagine better feeling to end your career than finally get to hoist the Stanley Cup in one of the most memorable situations in hockey history?

 

[Morgoth Bauglir]

Not in the least. Stevens was SIGNIFICANTLY better defensively in New Jersey than he was in his Washington days.

I'm from the DC area and watched Stevens in his Caps days and he was excellent defensively. It sounds like your confusing Lemaire's scheme with individual defensive ability.

 

[JaysCyYoung]

I don't agree. I've watched a ton of footage from the 1980s Patrick Division and the conclusion I get while watching Stevens is that he was greatly more prone to high-risk plays than he was post-1994. This is not to suggest that he was deficient defensively or a liability to any extent, but I do think there is a tendency amongst fans to equate physically with effective defensive play.

Stevens was far more likely to take himself out of position to make the big hit and took a lot more high-percentage risks offensively in his Caps days than he later did in New Jersey. He brings to mind later comparable defenders such as Ed Jovanovski and Bryan McCabe who fit a similar profile. That's not an insult either: both of the latter two were all-stars too. I do believe he became a much more dependable defender after Washington though. Less flashy but more consistent.

You're free to disagree of course, but I never found Stevens to be anywhere near as reliable in his own end while in DC as he was in the latter-half of his career when he was [IMO] a better player. The reason I rank Coffey ahead of him for the purposes of this thread is because he was a riverboat gambler who offered a significantly greater payoff production-wise than Stevens did in the first two-thirds of their careers, and the gap was already too big to make up for shutdown, all-world defence Stevens after 1994.

 

[plusandminus]

1 Lidstrom - 4 Cups, 7 Norris, Conn Smythe, Olympic Gold
2 Bourque - 1 Cup, 5 Norris, Career Leader in G,A,Pts by a defenseman
3 Coffey - 4 Cups, 3 Norris


4 Stevens - 3 Cups, Conn Smythe

I agree. Good summary.
Lidstrom won more than Coffey, both with his teams and individually. Look at Detrotit's win percentage before Lidstrom entered the team, and after he left it, and compare it with when he was on the team. Like night and day.

I find Coffey underrated here on HOH. I think he was overall an excellent and dominating player during his prime. Great defensively too, in my opinion as good as Ray Bourque. (Now some might ridicule me for thinking that, but I have to write what I've seen. I also think Bourque's defensive was/is overrated.) When Coffey's legs, skating and body were at its best, he was simply great.
I rate Bourque's career above Coffey's, due to his better longevity, but it's not by a huge margin.

Stevens to me is 4th.

 

[Horvath Broncos]

1)Lidstrom
2)Bourque
3)Coffey
4)Stevens

Perhaps im higher on Lids than most - but I value the four championships, Conn Smythe, and 2 extra Norris' than Bourque.

I don't think those two extra norrises mean that much when you take to account who they competed with. Bourque had Chelios, Potvin, Leetch, MacInnis,Coffey, Stevens etc. and Lidas started winning those norrises after those guys were out of the league or at the twilight years of their career. Chara, Niedermayer, Pronger, Weber, Blake etc. are all great players but Bourque competed with one of the best generation of NHL defensemen.

and also Bourque had 13 first all star team selections compared to Lidström's 10.

Lidström has the better team accomblishments but that's about it. Bourque has the peak, prime and career IMO. That's no knock for Lidas by any means though.

 

[Rhiessan71]

I don't agree. I've watched a ton of footage from the 1980s Patrick Division and the conclusion I get while watching Stevens is that he was greatly more prone to high-risk plays than he was post-1994. This is not to suggest that he was deficient defensively or a liability to any extent, but I do think there is a tendency amongst fans to equate physically with effective defensive play.

Stevens was far more likely to take himself out of position to make the big hit and took a lot more high-percentage risks offensively in his Caps days than he later did in New Jersey. He brings to mind later comparable defenders such as Ed Jovanovski and Bryan McCabe who fit a similar profile. That's not an insult either: both of the latter two were all-stars too. I do believe he became a much more dependable defender after Washington though. Less flashy but more consistent.

You're free to disagree of course, but I never found Stevens to be anywhere near as reliable in his own end while in DC as he was in the latter-half of his career when he was [IMO] a better player. The reason I rank Coffey ahead of him for the purposes of this thread is because he was a riverboat gambler who offered a significantly greater payoff production-wise than Stevens did in the first two-thirds of their careers, and the gap was already too big to make up for shutdown, all-world defence Stevens after 1994.

I agree, this is the more accurate assessment, especially mentioning that he often Phaneufed it up and pulled himself out of the play looking for the big hit.

The mistake most make is who they give the credit to for calming Stevens down. It wasn't Lemaire, he got him to concentrate more on his defense and less on offense but it was actually Brian Sutter in Stevens one season with the Blue's that curbed his running around.

As far as the poll goes...Bourque without a doubt.
19 all-star nods in 21 seasons is ridiculous and more just first team all-star nods than Lidstrom has total all-star nods...that's nuff said period!
Sometimes 7 is not greater than 5 and this is one of those cases. Bourque has seasons where he didn't win a Norris that are better than most of Lidstrom's Norris seasons.

 

[MXD]

The title nails it.

 

[feffan]

Bourque number 1 and Lidström 2 i obvious. They are one of the biggest reasons why one just can´t count awards to determine who´s the greatest. And it´s not world apart, if I sound like that. But it´s a clear cut. Bourque has the peak, the prime and the longetivity (how many can say THAT against Lidström...). Lidström got more team success. And in retro he was probably the main piece (even if people at the time assumed Yzerman/Fedorov ahead...).

Would love a thread with Stevens v.s. Coffey. Would assume Coffey in the end takes it, but I could see good arguments for both. For instance, one question is: Who would you like as your teams "main weapon"? I would take Stevens, but that´s before giving it to much tought.

Would also have loved to see where people would have put Potvin here.