Prospect Info: Rangers Prospect Thread (Player Stats in Post #1; Updated 3.7.22)

[nyr2k2]

Third point for Kjellberg. RPI tied it with a late SHG and then Kjellberg threw one across the crease to a teammate who banged in the PPG. All three points for Kjellberg on the PP today. Could be more hockey left for him this year.

EDIT: RPI wins and advances.

 

[cwede]

thanks for heads up, RPI just hit empty net

 

[nyr2k2]

#37 for Othmann.

 

[nyr2k2]

Second Kjellberg goal.

Assist on the GWG.

 

[nyr2k2]

Nothing to do with NYR, but this one is for @Fitzy.

 

[Fitzy]

Nothing to do with NYR, but this one is for @Fitzy.

Covid has sucked for literally everyone and every thing except the Skating Saints

First winning their first ECAC title in 20 years as one of only 3 teams competing (after everyone else dropped out) and being outshot 50-20 in the final, then this.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

My understanding is that he can't, due to the transfer agreement. @Amazing Kreiderman would know better.

Correct.

Players drafted out of major juniors have to be offered to their junior team first before being allowed to go on loan to a pro team unless the player:

- Has completed 4 seasons of major junior hockey, or
- Is released by his major junior team
- Turns 20 by Dec 31st of that season
- Was playing in major juniors on loan in his draft year (Zadina and Sandin for instance)

So Othmann can't go to Switzerland to play either without Flint's permission.

CBA page 21:

 

[mike14]

If the Rangers offer Othmann to Flint, they say "no thanks send him O/S" and then a few days later end up with fat stacks of cash courtesy of Dolan, is that considered CBA tampering?

 

[The Crypto Guy]

If the Rangers offer Othmann to Flint, they say "no thanks send him O/S" and then a few days later end up with fat stacks of cash courtesy of Dolan, is that considered CBA tampering?

I can barely understand what you are asking, but yes. If you are handing over cash under the table, it's probably because what you are asking is illegal.

 

[mike14]

I can barely understand what you are asking, but yes. If you are handing over cash under the table, it's probably because what you are asking is illegal.

I guess the question is, does the cash need to be under the table, or is it ok for the Rangers to offer Othmann back to Flint with the caveat that if they so 'no' so that he can play overseas, the Rangers will compensate them for that decision

 

[Mugless]

Vierling is starting to get interesting.

 

[GAGLine]

I guess the question is, does the cash need to be under the table, or is it ok for the Rangers to offer Othmann back to Flint with the caveat that if they so 'no' so that he can play overseas, the Rangers will compensate them for that decision

I don't think the Rangers would be breaking any rules if they did that. It isn't cap circumvention. They aren't tampering with players whose rights are owned by others. NHL teams talk to CHL teams all the time about moving their players to better situations.

The only difference here is the monetary compensation for releasing the player, which is sure to make some people look at it sideways, but I can't see any reason why it would be against the rules.

People have long talked about amending the NHL/CHL rule to allow some sort of exception. Why not do it in a way that compensates the CHL team for their loss? Other leagues get compensated as part of their transfer agreements. Why not the CHL?

 

[The Crypto Guy]

I don't think the Rangers would be breaking any rules if they did that. It isn't cap circumvention. They aren't tampering with players whose rights are owned by others. NHL teams talk to CHL teams all the time about moving their players to better situations.

The only difference here is the monetary compensation for releasing the player, which is sure to make some people look at it sideways, but I can't see any reason why it would be against the rules.

People have long talked about amending the NHL/CHL rule to allow some sort of exception. Why not do it in a way that compensates the CHL team for their loss? Other leagues get compensated as part of their transfer agreements. Why not the CHL?

Because the poor teams will cry they don’t have the same money to do that like the rich teams do so it’s an unfair advantage.

 

[GAGLine]

Because the poor teams will cry they don’t have the same money to do that like the rich teams do so it’s an unfair advantage.

Teams in other leagues get compensated for the NHL poaching their players before a certain age. Hard to cry poverty when they are already doing it elsewhere.

 

[NYR Viper]

So, is Kjellberg a legit prospect? I mean what else could he do?

 

[coz21]

So, is Kjellberg a legit prospect? I mean what else could he do?

He's second on the team in points, leads them in assists (or is tied for the lead as there is a discrepancy in his stats on CHN and the RPI site). I haven't watched a ton of RPI this year, but given his offensive production he's probably playing a ton, and has really developed his offensive game. He probably needs to tighten up defensively since RPI was a bottom 3rd team defensively.

He's also probably be going to taking on a big leadership role with 5 of their top 10 scorers graduating including 3 of the top 4. If he can maintain or improve his production in an even bigger role next year, I'd say he's definitely earned an ELC.

 

[cwede]

So, is Kjellberg a legit prospect? I mean what else could he do?

He's second on the team in points, leads them in assists (or is tied for the lead as there is a discrepancy in his stats on CHN and the RPI site). I haven't watched a ton of RPI this year, but given his offensive production he's probably playing a ton, and has really developed his offensive game. He probably needs to tighten up defensively since RPI was a bottom 3rd team defensively. He's also probably be going to taking on a big leadership role with 5 of their top 10 scorers graduating including 3 of the top 4. If he can maintain or improve his production in an even bigger role next year, I'd say he's definitely earned an ELC.

correct me if wrong, but i believe that,
because he/RPI didn't play NCAA last year,
as well as Covid-related NCAA accommodation, of an extra year of eligibility,
Kjellberg could continue playing at RPI past '22-23,
and in that case NYR retains his rights longer, until no longer an NCAA player

but he already turned 22 a few weeks back, so that adds incentive to not delay turning pro for very long

 

[nyr2k2]

correct me if wrong, but i believe that,
because he/RPI didn't play NCAA last year,
as well as Covid-related NCAA accommodation, of an extra year of eligibility,
Kjellberg could continue playing at RPI past '22-23,
and in that case NYR retains his rights longer, until no longer an NCAA player

but he already turned 22 a few weeks back, so that adds incentive to not delay turning pro for very long

You're correct that he can play an extra year beyond 22-23, however, if he did so the Rangers would almost certainly lose his rights. They'll have until August 15, 2023 to sign him, unless the NHL grants an exception:

"If a Player drafted at age 18 or 19 is a bona fide college student at the time of his selection in the Entry Draft, or becomes a bona fide college student prior to the first June 1 following his selection in the Entry Draft, and remains a bona fide college student through the graduation of his college class, his drafting Club shall retain the exclusive right of negotiation for his services through and including the August 15 following the graduation of his college class. The Club need not make a Bona Fide Offer to such Player to retain such rights."

The extra year is an extra year of NCAA eligibility, but I don't think it's going to grant the team an extra year of control since he's been a bona fide college student all three years and his class will graduate after next season.

So, is Kjellberg a legit prospect? I mean what else could he do?

I watched him in Dubuque for kicks and he was basically an average USHL player who brought nothing to the table of note. In his first year at RPI, his modest production blew away expectations based on his work in the USHL.

This year, he legitimately looks like a rover. He gets back and plays defense but isn't particularly good at it, but he is constantly not just joining the rush but finding himself in the corners and below the goal line. A couple of the highlights I have posted recently you can see him playing right around the front of the net.

He also likes to run the point on the PP and to use his clapper, which looks to be average and maybe even above-average. He plays on their PP1 and gets a lot of time out there. He's not a guy who really likes to hold onto the puck, though, as he is more interested in moving it quickly or firing it on goal.

Personally, I still don't see any particular high-end skills. He's 22 and he plays for a bad team and feasted on some of the worst teams in the country. 16 of his 28 points came against teams with a Pairwise of 47 or lower (out of 59), Of course neither Kjellberg nor RPI can pick their opponent, but when you're playing in a weaker conference, you see these kinds of things where mediocre guys who aren't great prospects end up putting up big numbers. Against Quinnipiac, Northeastern, Clarkson, Harvard, and Cornell--who are all top-23 in Pairwise--he registered 3 assists in 10 games.

Kjellberg has done good work to put himself on the prospect map. I don't think he's special in any way, but he has at least entered into the conversation as a guy to watch. Who knows, maybe he's one of those guys who surprises at every level?

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

If the Rangers offer Othmann to Flint, they say "no thanks send him O/S" and then a few days later end up with fat stacks of cash courtesy of Dolan, is that considered CBA tampering?

No party involved in this is going to risk getting caught and lose their license (Flint, Othmann's agent), draft picks (Rangers) or even getting suspended (Othmann).

This stuff does not happen. Flint isn't relinquishing his rights.

 

[nyr2k2]

No party involved in this is going to risk getting caught and lose their license (Flint, Othmann's agent), draft picks (Rangers) or even getting suspended (Othmann).

This stuff does not happen. Flint isn't relinquishing his rights.

This exactly. Flint wants to compete, and it's why they didn't trade Othmann this year. They're top of their conference (for the moment), and they're not likely to lose much going into next year where they'll hope to compete again. There's no reason for them to want to let go of Othmann.

Also, even if you want to argue the proposed "arrangement" isn't explicitly prohibited by the CBA, it clearly violates the spirit of the document and the NHL would have no problems absolutely busting the Rangers' ass for trying it (and CHL with Flint, for that matter). Any type of under-the-table deal is going to be much more of a problem than it's worth.

 

[cwede]

You're correct that he can play an extra year beyond 22-23, however, if he did so the Rangers would almost certainly lose his rights. They'll have until August 15, 2023 to sign him, unless the NHL grants an exception:
"If a Player drafted at age 18 or 19 is a bona fide college student at the time of his selection in the Entry Draft, or becomes a bona fide college student prior to the first June 1 following his selection in the Entry Draft, and remains a bona fide college student through the graduation of his college class, his drafting Club shall retain the exclusive right of negotiation for his services through and including the August 15 following the graduation of his college class. The Club need not make a Bona Fide Offer to such Player to retain such rights."
The extra year is an extra year of NCAA eligibility, but I don't think it's going to grant the team an extra year of control since he's been a bona fide college student all three years and his class will graduate after next season.

sorry for the following tangent, college eligibility impact on NHL rights has always seemed gray area to me, as per examples that follow

thanks,
it is not explicitly clear to me, because of a player scenario which I had followed in the past, details below
I will be grateful if anyone has a more detailed explanation than 'he was still an enrolled NCAA player'

Jordan Samuels-Thomas was drafted in '09 (by Thrashers(>Jets)
Jordan Samuels-Thomas at eliteprospects.com
Jordan Samuels-Thomas Contract, Cap Hit, Salary and Stats - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

played 2 years at Bowling Green, '09-10 & '10-11
transferred to Q-pac, closer to home in CT, reportedly for family reasons,
played at Q'pac '12-13 and '13-14
and his NHL rights were still in-place summer '14, although his 'original' BG class had graduated in '13
[ In July'14, NHL rights were traded to Sabres, who signed him, before rights expired mid-August with other NCAA kids]

so that is why I suspect that there may an aspect of that CBA clause where "remains a bona fide college student"
has precedence over "August 15 following the graduation of his college class" - perhaps the transfer re-set the 'college class'

also, more familiar to this group,
the Tyler Nanne situation, drafted '14, where he enrolled at OSU, but due to health issues, didn't play there, or even play NCAA hockey
until eventually in '16-17, at home, as a Gopher, he played 4 seasons
IIRC his rights were retained through '19-20 season
(NYR didn't sign him, I believe NYR surrendered his rights, so Hershey AHL did in June '20)

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

This exactly. Flint wants to compete, and it's why they didn't trade Othmann this year. They're top of their conference (for the moment), and they're not likely to lose much going into next year where they'll hope to compete again. There's no reason for them to want to let go of Othmann.

Also, even if you want to argue the proposed "arrangement" isn't explicitly prohibited by the CBA, it clearly violates the spirit of the document and the NHL would have no problems absolutely busting the Rangers' ass for trying it (and CHL with Flint, for that matter). Any type of under-the-table deal is going to be much more of a problem than it's worth.

I also looked into the stipulation of the CHL contract and it clearly states the player can only file for contract termination if the employer (The team) isn't paying his expenses etc. So unless Flint somehow forgets to fulfill their duties, Othmann isn't playing in the AHL until the 2023-24 season, with the exception of the end of the season when Flint's season has ended.

 

[nyr2k2]

sorry for the following tangent, college eligibility impact on NHL rights has always seemed gray area to me, as per examples that follow

thanks,
it is not explicitly clear to me, because of a player scenario which I had followed in the past, details below
I will be grateful if anyone has a more detailed explanation than 'he was still an enrolled NCAA player'

Jordan Samuels-Thomas was drafted in '09 (by Thrashers(>Jets)
Jordan Samuels-Thomas at eliteprospects.com
Jordan Samuels-Thomas Contract, Cap Hit, Salary and Stats - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

played 2 years at Bowling Green, '09-10 & '10-11
transferred to Q-pac, closer to home in CT, reportedly for family reasons,
played at Q'pac '12-13 and '13-14
and his NHL rights were still in-place summer '14, although his 'original' BG class had graduated in '13
[ In July'14, NHL rights were traded to Sabres, who signed him, before rights expired mid-August with other NCAA kids]

so that is why I suspect that there may an aspect of that CBA clause where "remains a bona fide college student"
has precedence over "August 15 following the graduation of his college class" - perhaps the transfer re-set the 'college class'

also, more familiar to this group,
the Tyler Nanne situation, drafted '14, where he enrolled at OSU, but due to health issues, didn't play there, or even play NCAA hockey
until eventually in '16-17, at home, as a Gopher, he played 4 seasons
IIRC his rights were retained through '19-20 season
(NYR didn't sign him, I believe NYR surrendered his rights, so Hershey AHL did in June '20)

Yeah, the college thing has always been a bit murky. I know the language changed somewhat in the 2012 CBA, which may or may not have affected Samuels-Thomas. Nanne's situation jumped to my mind as well, when I was making my original post; I don't know the specific mechanism that allowed for us to retain his rights but I assume that since he didn't play or attend classes that first year at OSU, he wasn't considered a bona fide college student and his graduating class became that class of 2020 (since while he didn't play the first year at Minnesota, he was enrolled).

Anyway, you're right that there seem to be lots of NCAA cases that don't seem to align neatly with the rules. For what it's worth, CapFriendly has an August 15, 2023 rights expiration date for him, though it wouldn't be the first time they had to amend something. I'd be surprised however if the NHL extended the deadline for these guys, since AFAIK everyone was granted an extra year of eligibility, whether they played or not last fall/winter.

 

[cwede]

... I'd be surprised however if the NHL extended the deadline for these guys, since AFAIK everyone was granted an extra year of eligibility, whether they played or not last fall/winter.

thanks for the feedback

if only Easton hadn't been the only undrafted Brodzinzki brother,
CapFriendly might offer some clarity regarding Covid extra eligibility on NHL rights 8^)
[there are most likely some 5th-season drafted guys, i don't have names though)

Easton Brodzinski at eliteprospects.com

Makes me wonder the record for career NCAA D1 games played?- some guys may surpass that soon ...


Player Display Page at Hockeydb.com

 

[cwede]

one more on this from me, re the rights question re 5th year NCAA players

found an example of 5th year NCAA drafted player
also at St Cloud
Goalie David Hrenak
5th consecutive season w >25 GP and >560 saves each
David Hrenak Hockey Stats and Profile at hockeydb.com

per CapFriendly, LAK rights extended to Aug'22