Post-Game Talk (GBU): Rags in our barn edition.

[joshjull]

I wonder if Bogosian could have iced the puck or turned it over in the D-Zone a few more times?

Anyway, awesome effort. I was not a fan of a couple of those goals Lehner let in. He was off tonight.

Lehner said on the Zuccarello goal that he knows him. Didn't expect him to shoot/was expecting a pass. Thought that was interesting insight and explains why he seemed so unprepared for the shot.

 

[old kummelweck]

Lehner is so big he has a 10 hole.

 

[truthbluth]

G: Kane, Eichel, Reinhart coming together. Apparently, injury is the only force that can compel Disco Dan to keep a line together for more than 2 games.
Larsson being Larsson.
Foligno being a monster. Can he keep it up?
That Pysser calm out there. If you put Pysyk's mind in Mike Weber's body, that's a Norris candidate.

B: First half of the 2nd. Everybody, pretty much, was asleep.
Missed Icing. No freaking clue what's going on there.

U: The team is starting to really come together, with O'Reilly back soon, and there are only 14 games left before another long summer. I miss the playoffs so much.

 

[1point21Gigawatts]

One of the few nights where the Sabres deserved better than they got. Lehner and D had some pretty big lapses and poor play, but the team really tightened up and played strong.

G
Eichel and Reinhart are fun to watch.
Larry and Foligno continue to impress.

B
Girgensons
line. Not Girgensons, but his linemates. Kid plays so hard, it sucks he has invisible linemates.

U
Lehner chirping at his bench when he was chased out of net. Point that finger inward, too. That second goal.

 

[Ghills23]

I only caught the 2nd and the 3rd but that was one of the best performances I've seen in awhile. The 3rd was the best period of hockey the Sabres have played in two seasons. Obviously the Rangers were sitting back a bit but I'd like to see that aggressive play more often out of this team.

9-15-23 were flying. Played a ton in the third. I thought they even played two shifts in a row following a TV timeout.


COR on the 1st PP unit drives me crazy. The whole PP 2 drives me crazy.

 

[SoFFacet]

With 9-23-15 and 82-22-12 looking good, I guess the other line could be 28-90-63 if fully healthy? 28-90-26 if Ennis sits the rest of the year.

 

[McPhatty00]

G - All the young guns.

Eichel's physical domination is insane. The way he shields the puck is so reminiscent of Jagr.

Sam is better every night. He makes every linemate better.

B - Lehner didn't look great, but the Rangers are a savvy vet team.

ROR can't come back soon enough. COR is the definition of AHL pro. He's a smart player, but a 4th liner, at best.

U - Horrible decisions by EVERY Dman. Yikes.

Poor 1st period on back-to-back.

 

[SabresBillsBuffalo]

Regardless of the O-zone face offs, Jack has been better at them lately and with 4 mins to go your team was riding wayyy too much momentum to have COR on the PP.

He litterally single handidly soiled the pp

 

[Heraldic]

Overall a really good game. Too bad Lehner had one of his worse games and ended up allowing two softies.

Kane has been surprisingly solid recently. He still has his usual flaws, but it seems he is slowly figuring out that you can do something else than just try to pick an upper corner with the puck on o-zone (which usually ends up Kane shooting the puck to the glass).

Eichel is becoming more and more better at selecting the spots when to try to rush the puck straight to the goal and when to slow it down and create a scoring chance there.

***

There seems to be some confusion about a player playing center and a player being the first forward entering d-zone while opponent is on the rush.

Reinhart having center assignments on d-zone on several occasions was pretty much the same thing that Girgs did with Eichel as well. Eichel tends to play pretty deep and take chances on the o-zone. That more than often means that he is not the first forward entering d-zone. The basic duty for a forward who comes after two d-men on d-zone is to cover the third, lone opposing forward - no matter the position you play. And you DON'T change the positions if the opponent has the possession unless there is a CLEAR opening. I didn't see Eichel and Reinhart changing positions if Eichel was the first forward on d-zone. If the line was designed to have Reinhart having those assignments, they would have switched positions. BUT there were situations where they could have switched positions (Reinhart becoming a winger), but they didn't. That alone doesn't mean there was some integral design. On many situations Eichel had the center assignments

Generally it isn't optimal way to deploy you're line that a winger has center assignments on d-zone and the center is the primary puck carrier. And the reason is that as soon as you get the possession on your own zone, you want the puck as fast as possible to your puck carrier to the middle and to the speed. If your center is presumably standing next to a board when you get the possession, it takes a decade to organize the rush as it should be organised.

And if you want one of your forward to be the puck carrier from center ice wihtout having defensive assignments of center, you just put him as a winger. Just like Tyler Ennis played last year. Or was Ennis and Larsson/Girgs splitting playing center? Of course not.

And that is also a reason why Eichel should be surrounded by defensively sound wingers. You don't want Eichel to play safe and sound on o-zone - you want him to use his skillset. And if he has defensively sound wingers, he doesn't have to worry about being the first guy back d-zone. If you're paired with P.Kane and Ovechkin, and you play deep, lose the puck, you're pretty sure that the first guy after d-men on your d-zone is either of them - and you absolutely don't want to either of them having center assignments on d-zone - even for a second.

 

[Jame]

There seems to be some confusion about a player playing center and a player being the first forward entering d-zone while opponent is on the rush.

You're the one who seems to be confused.

The way the Eichel line plays, it naturally leads to Eichel NOT being F1 on the backcheck/defensively quit often. Which naturally puts one of his wingers in to the Center role defensively. This is HOW that line is playing. It's designed/coached to play that way.

Reinhart having center assignments on d-zone on several occasions was pretty much the same thing that Girgs did with Eichel as well.

Correct, this is how the Eichel line is designed to play. And has been since early on when Larsson was on that line.

Eichel tends to play pretty deep and take chances on the o-zone. That more than often means that he is not the first forward entering d-zone.

Correct, this is how the Eichel line is designed to play.

The basic duty for a forward who comes after two d-men on d-zone is to cover the third, lone opposing forward - no matter the position you play.

Correct

And you DON'T change the positions if the opponent has the possession unless there is a CLEAR opening.

Correct. So as we've now established... Eichel is playing an aggressive and deep attacking offensive role, leading to him more often than not NOT being the F1. Thus making his wingers responsible for taking the centers role defensively (unlike other lines center responsibility falling on... you know, the center.)

I didn't see Eichel and Reinhart changing positions if Eichel was the first forward on d-zone.

As you've already established, Eichel is not always the first forward in the d zone.

If the line was designed to have Reinhart having those assignments, they would have switched positions.

The line IS designed to make that switch... as we've now established.

BUT there were situations where they could have switched positions (Reinhart becoming a winger), but they didn't.

There were, and they did.

That alone doesn't mean there was some integral design. On many situations Eichel had the center assignments

When he's F1

He's F1 in fewer cases, because of the design of the attack (based on his natural ability)

It was pretty clearly designed that way (as you noted with Girgs before him). And with players like ROR/Reinhart paired with a player like Eichel, you will continue to see it. Eichel will continue to play high defensively when he's not F1, and he will continue to be puck dominant down low offensively. That will continue to produce F1 responsibilities for players like ROR/Reinhart. They will effectively be playing the center responsibilities defensively much of the time if they are on Eichel's wing.

To pretend this is not by design is naive or intellectually dishonest. your choice. The difference is that when you see it from Girgs, the outlet/playmaking/vision does not support the breakout the way a guy like Reinhart can.

Generally it isn't optimal way to deploy you're line that a winger has center assignments on d-zone and the center is the primary puck carrier. And the reason is that as soon as you get the possession on your own zone, you want the puck as fast as possible to your puck carrier to the middle and to the speed.

It's perfectly normal. See Briere/Hecht

And The puck gets to Eichel as fast as possible, when Reinhart is the point of transition

If your center is presumably standing next to a board when you get the possession, it takes a decade to organize the rush as it should be organised.

No, Not when that player has wheels like Eichel. You should cease with silly generalizations when it comes to Eichel.

And if you want one of your forward to be the puck carrier from center ice wihtout having defensive assignments of center, you just put him as a winger. Just like Tyler Ennis played last year. Or was Ennis and Larsson/Girgs splitting playing center? Of course not.

Which was how Eichel was utilized when he was not F1 on the backcheck. Also, transitioning through center ice, presents opportunities for distributors/playmakers. But transitioning down the outside, is just as aligned with Eichel's blazing speed that creates mismatches.

And that is also a reason why Eichel should be surrounded by defensively sound wingers. You don't want Eichel to play safe and sound on o-zone - you want him to use his skillset. And if he has defensively sound wingers, he doesn't have to worry about being the first guy back d-zone.

When he's not the first guy back, he's not playing center. period. its not even debatable. That's a choice of scheme/strategy. and it was employed last night. and practically every night since the Larsson-Eichel pairing, through the Girgs-Eichel pairing, to the recent Reinhart-Eichel pairing. The "mixed" usage strategy allows Eichel to NOT play safe and sound. To be the puck dominant offensive player, without any weaknesses around the net/premier scoring areas defensively.

Girgs and Larsson were used in the same manner, but did not provide the necessary transition skills. Reinhart does. ROR would.

 

[brian_griffin]

Will watch the game tonight (DVR'd). Watched highlights, though. Didn't like Cola's positioning leading to the odd-man rush against (which I think was the 2nd goal).

Why did Foligno get a 10-min misconduct? (Guess I will see tonight.)

 

[Jame]

Will watch the game tonight (DVR'd). Watched highlights, though. Didn't like Cola's positioning leading to the odd-man rush against (which I think was the 2nd goal).

Why did Foligno get a 10-min misconduct? (Guess I will see tonight.)

Cola does a really good job of reminding everyone that Mike Weber was a really solid 3rd pair guy this year.

 

[vcv]

Cola does a really good job of reminding everyone that Mike Weber was a really solid 3rd pair guy this year.

I don't get it. To start the year, Cola seemed fine. Now he seems terrible.

 

[struckbyaparkedcar]

I don't get it. To start the year, Cola seemed fine. Now he seems terrible.

I don't think there was ever a point where I thought about thinking that.

 

[old kummelweck]

Why did Foligno get a 10-min misconduct? (Guess I will see tonight.)

Linesmen missed a blatant icing at the end and I believe Foligno ripped them.

 

[Zman5778]

I don't get it. To start the year, Cola seemed fine. Now he seems terrible.

Yeah, his trajectory took a sharp nose dive south once he hit that first long stretch of being the consistent healthy scratch.

He was serviceable to start the year, and now he's Benoit/Meszaros level.

 

[joshjull]

I don't get it. To start the year, Cola seemed fine. Now he seems terrible.

Its hard to sit that long and just jump back in.

 

[joshjull]

The vibe I've gotten watching Sam and Jack live is much of the transitioning of responsibilities during the play is done by them. Their natural tendencies compliment each other well. I don't think its a coaching thing.

I find it hard to believe a coaching staff that doesn't trust Reinhart in defensive situations is going to ask him to cover Eichel defensively. As an example they frequently keep Sam on the bench for d-zone face-offs in the 3rd in favor of Gionta, COR or Girgs. I just find it hard to believe they would then set things up with Sam covering for Eichel defensively.

 

[Paxon]

The vibe I've gotten watching Sam and Jack live is much of the transitioning of responsibilities during the play is done by them. Their natural tendencies compliment each other well. I don't think its a coaching thing.

I find it hard to believe a coaching staff that doesn't trust Reinhart in defensive situations is going to ask him to cover Eichel defensively. As an example they frequently keep Sam on the bench for d-zone face-offs in the 3rd in favor of Gionta, COR or Girgs. I just find it hard to believe they would then set things up with Sam covering for Eichel defensively.

I tend to agree since a.) it perfectly fits the strengths of both and b.) it's too obvious for Bylsma

Sam is the better in-zone defender than Eichel and his outlet passes are beautiful. Eichel has gamebreaking speed. Seems pretty obvious who should be doing the work down low to spring the transition and who should be spearheading that transition.

 

[Jame]

The vibe I've gotten watching Sam and Jack live is much of the transitioning of responsibilities during the play is done by them. Their natural tendencies compliment each other well. I don't think its a coaching thing.

I find it hard to believe a coaching staff that doesn't trust Reinhart in defensive situations is going to ask him to cover Eichel defensively. As an example they frequently keep Sam on the bench for d-zone face-offs in the 3rd in favor of Gionta, COR or Girgs. I just find it hard to believe they would then set things up with Sam covering for Eichel defensively.

A d zone faceoff is a completely different situation/tactic.

The transition tactics I described have been used on the Eichel line most of the season. Eichel has had a long offensive leash, and the wingers (Larsson, Girgs, now Reinhart) have had a lot of the defensive transition/dzone responsibility.

I hate Bylsma more than you... But acting like its something they are just "doing on their own"... Please

 

[joshjull]

A d zone faceoff is a completely different situation/tactic.

The transition tactics I described have been used on the Eichel line most of the season. Eichel has had a long offensive leash, and the wingers (Larsson, Girgs, now Reinhart) have had a lot of the defensive transition/dzone responsibility.

I hate Bylsma more than you... But acting like its something they are just "doing on their own"... Please

Eichel is asked to do the same thing defensive and offensively no matter who his wingers are. When he's with wingers that don't have defensive awareness, like Kane, he gets exposed defensively for two reasons. 1) those wingers put him in tougher situations defensively and 2) those players can't help him defensively, so a lot of the defensive responsibility of the line is on Eichel. Girgs, Larsson and Reinhart play the same way defensively no matter who they're with. Thats why when they're put with guys like Eichel they help cover for them defensively. They're not asked to specifically do so. Its just their game. They lighten the load for Eichel defensively since they can shoulder the defensive load from time to time unlike others. Eichel adjusting to the freedom wingers like that give him is not a coaching tactic per se. Its a player realizing he can do things because he's got someone whose helping cover the defensive end of things for him. Eichel is still deep in or zone a lot and is still engaged with defensive responsibilities. He hasn't surrendered that aspect of the game to Reinhart or any of the other wingers. But with those guys he gets a break from having to be the guy in that role all the time.

Early on in that lines existence Reinhart was usually one of the wingers up high. Over several games they began to morph into what we're seeing now. Players that seem to read each other very well and compliment each others skills. They've all helped each other produce offense and the load for each of them individually is much lighter in all aspects.

These statements are not an attack on Disco. Its pointing out that what you think is a coaching tactic is actually organic. The coaching tactic is putting the strong defensive player with the Eichel.



I used the d-zone draws as one example (of a few) of our coaching staff not feeling fully confident in Reinhart yet in defensive situations. So I find it hard to believe they pulled Sam aside and tasked him specifically with protecting Eichel defensively. Also this idea that Eichel's given a "long leash" and doesn't have to worry about defensive responsibilities as much is nonsense. Where he has a long leash is in the amount of screw ups he's forgiven for every game as he struggles to adapt to the defensive aspects of being a NHL center. He's rarely penalized when he screws up badly in our end. But he is still tasked with defensive responsibilities of a center.

 

[Jame]

Eichel is asked to do the same thing defensive and offensively no matter who his wingers are. When he's with wingers that don't have defensive awareness, like Kane, he gets exposed defensively for two reasons. 1) those wingers put him in tougher situations defensively and 2) those players can't help him defensively, so a lot of the defensive responsibility of the line is on Eichel. Girgs, Larsson and Reinhart play the same way defensively no matter who they're with. Thats why when they're put with guys like Eichel they help cover for them defensively. They're not asked to specifically do so. Its just their game. They lighten the load for Eichel defensively since they can shoulder the defensive load from time to time unlike others. Eichel adjusting to the freedom wingers like that give him is not a coaching tactic per se. Its a player realizing he can do things because he's got someone whose helping cover the defensive end of things for him. Eichel is still deep in or zone a lot and is still engaged with defensive responsibilities. He hasn't surrendered that aspect of the game to Reinhart or any of the other wingers. But with those guys he gets a break from having to be the guy in that role all the time.

Early on in that lines existence Reinhart was usually one of the wingers up high. Over several games they began to morph into what we're seeing now. Players that seem to read each other very well and compliment each others skills. They've all helped each other produce offense and the load for each of them individually is much lighter in all aspects.

These statements are not an attack on Disco. Its pointing out that what you think is a coaching tactic is actually organic. The coaching tactic is putting the strong defensive player with the Eichel.



I used the d-zone draws as one example (of a few) of our coaching staff not feeling fully confident in Reinhart yet in defensive situations. So I find it hard to believe they pulled Sam aside and tasked him specifically with protecting Eichel defensively. Also this idea that Eichel's given a "long leash" and doesn't have to worry about defensive responsibilities as much is nonsense. Where he has a long leash is in the amount of screw ups he's forgiven for every game as he struggles to adapt to the defensive aspects of being a NHL center. He's rarely penalized when he screws up badly in our end. But he is still tasked with defensive responsibilities of a center.

I know you like to type a lot, but it wasn't necessary to essentially repeat everything I said, and instead say "but that's not a coaching thing".

Let's agree that I will deduct some points from you in terms of what I think you know about coaching, and you can do the same to me.

Ps the dzone faceoff example remains a completely irrelevant point

 

[Chainshot]

Will watch the game tonight (DVR'd). Watched highlights, though. Didn't like Cola's positioning leading to the odd-man rush against (which I think was the 2nd goal).

Why did Foligno get a 10-min misconduct? (Guess I will see tonight.)

Commentary on the linesman blowing the clear-as-day icing at the end of the game.