Question re: Free Agency Eligibility

[The old geezer]

There seems there is a loophole in the NHL CBA that is allowing teams to sign Euro FA players just to hold their rights for one year.

I know of at least two of these cases this past year where the team has signed a player where it's believed the player already knows they are going back to Europe for at least one more year. I should clarify no league or team official is on record that that is the play, and frankly I wouldn't expect them to.

At least one of the players has now been signed to an HFNHL contract and I'm mullying over the possibility of doing the same with the 2nd player I'm aware of. Can I?
I already missed on the 1st not thinking he would be allowed to sign and I can produce a link from a reliable source showing the 2nd player in question has signed.

Indirectly the old condition about a player having to have played a pro game before he could be signed used to block this sort of thing but now that condition is gone I'm assuming I can sign them.

Click to read more...

 

[The old geezer]

Hmmm ... 23 views (presumably at least one by a member of the Swingstein clan) and no responses so I'll take your silence as a 'Yes' answer to my question

 

[kasper11]

Drew --- I have a player in mind as well (most likely the same one) and am going to just place the bid and I suggest you do the same. Better to have a bid invalidated then not bid and lose the player.

 

[The old geezer]

Drew --- I have a player in mind as well (most likely the same one) and am going to just place the bid and I suggest you do the same. Better to have a bid invalidated then not bid and lose the player.

If it is the same it would be an amusing bidding war :0 Knowing the player is just going to end up on a prospect list we should just both offer $8M now ... or just flip a coin

 

[kasper11]

If it is the same it would be an amusing bidding war :0 Knowing the player is just going to end up on a prospect list we should just both offer $8M now ... or just flip a coin

You can offer 8M if you like, but remember, when they are activated off the prospect list it will be at that salary. I can guarantee you that I will be offering far less than 8M.

 

[MatthewFlames]

I can produce a link from a reliable source showing the 2nd player in question has signed. Can I?

Yes. If the player has signed then you can sign him with a link provided. If that player returns to Europe he will be moved to the prospects list.

 

[Ville Isopaa]

Is this a swedish goalie? If so he has not signed a contract with intent to play in North America next season, which means that he should not be egliable according to the HFNHL FA rules.

 

[Tampa GM]

Is this a swedish goalie? If so he has not signed a contract with intent to play in North America next season, which means that he should not be egliable according to the HFNHL FA rules.

Swedish goalie? I have no clue who you are refering to..Isnt the monster signed already?

 

[Hossa]

Is this a swedish goalie? If so he has not signed a contract with intent to play in North America next season, which means that he should not be egliable according to the HFNHL FA rules.

That's precisely the question though. How do you determine intent at this point when he has an NHL contract that has been announced by the NHL team?

 

[Ville Isopaa]

http://www.svenskafans.com/hockeyzon/artikel.asp?id=308969

It's an interview where he says he is not going over and that the contract with SJ is only about giving SJ RFA rights nect summer, not about playing in NA this upcomming season.

 

[Hossa]

http://www.svenskafans.com/hockeyzon/artikel.asp?id=308969

It's an interview where he says he is not going over and that the contract with SJ is only about giving SJ RFA rights nect summer, not about playing in NA this upcomming season.

Fair enough, I don't doubt that is the case, but that doesn't seem to fully answer Drew's concern.

Your interpretation of the rules seems to contradict Matt K's, so how do we come up with a verdict?

 

[Tampa GM]

Isnt the only thing that matter that he has signed a contract with a team in NHL? Fabian Brunnstrom and Jonas Gustavsson are two players who where signed by HFNHL after signing a contract with NHL but before playing in NHL, why should this player be different?

Yes its possible that he plays in Sweden this coming season but he still has a NHL contract. Is it any difference between this guy and another player who is signed as a free agent but then spend the complete first season in the minors?

 

[Dryden]

Isnt the only thing that matter that he has signed a contract with a team in NHL? Fabian Brunnstrom and Jonas Gustavsson are two players who where signed by HFNHL after signing a contract with NHL but before playing in NHL, why should this player be different?

Yes its possible that he plays in Sweden this coming season but he still has a NHL contract. Is it any difference between this guy and another player who is signed as a free agent but then spend the complete first season in the minors?

I agree

 

[Dr.Sens(e)]

I believe our rule is signing AND playing in North America. Of course, this is in the grey area because it comes down to "Intent" but for the HFNHL's purposes, I don't think adjusting our rules to match an NHL loop hole makes sense. As such, Karlsson and others like him will remain ineligible for the time being.

The key thing here is to make sure it is fair. If a GM has a question about eligibility, they should immediately forward it to the agents and we will confirm or clarify their potential eligibility. There will always be a decent window for the player to get the best offer (once they are officially available), so it's not like it is first-come first-serve, but at the same time the agents aren't going to do a posting every time a Euro is available to be signed - it will be up to the GM's interested to follow and confirm with the agents. But perhaps we can keep a list for a particular player so that when he is officially eligible, those teams that inquired will be notified. Just an idea at this point.

 

[HFNHL Commish]

I believe our rule is signing AND playing in North America. Of course, this is in the grey area because it comes down to "Intent" but for the HFNHL's purposes, I don't think adjusting our rules to match an NHL loop hole makes sense. As such, Karlsson and others like him will remain ineligible for the time being.

The key thing here is to make sure it is fair. If a GM has a question about eligibility, they should immediately forward it to the agents and we will confirm or clarify their potential eligibility. There will always be a decent window for the player to get the best offer (once they are officially available), so it's not like it is first-come first-serve, but at the same time the agents aren't going to do a posting every time a Euro is available to be signed - it will be up to the GM's interested to follow and confirm with the agents. But perhaps we can keep a list for a particular player so that when he is officially eligible, those teams that inquired will be notified. Just an idea at this point.

Sounds reasonable to me, given that Karlsson's "intent" has been expressed in pretty clear terms.

I believe that the other player Drew was referring to was Andreas Engvist, but I'm not so sure that "intent" can be as clearly determined in his case. I'll leave it to others to do the digging for me.

 

[Ville Isopaa]

Sounds reasonable to me, given that Karlsson's "intent" has been expressed in pretty clear terms.

I believe that the other player Drew was referring to was Andreas Engvist, but I'm not so sure that "intent" can be as clearly determined in his case. I'll leave it to others to do the digging for me.

Andreas Engqvist is actually not old enough to be signed as a UFA prospect in HFNHL this summer. He won't turn 22 until after Sept.15th (Dec. 23rd to be exact). The rule says that a european player has to be over 22 years old at the time of the signing. Thus, Engqvist should not eligible as a UFA until next summer, but he should be eligible again for the 2010 draft.

 

[kasper11]

So, what constitutes intent now? If someone posts a blog that my best friend's sister's boyfriend's brother's girlfriend saw player at 31 flavors last night claiming he was staying in Europe is that enough?

Intent seems to be a rather subjective standard. Either a player signs or doesn't. Either he plays in NA or he doesn't. Those are two objective standards. There isn't much wiggle room.

 

[kasper11]

I believe our rule is signing AND playing in North America.

Actually, the rules for FA signing for this year specifically state that is not the rule.

B. European Free Agency Eligibility (New Rule)
(i) The players birth year is 1987 or earlier (the player must be a minimum 22 years of age at signing)
(ii) The player is currently in a North American league or has signed a contract to return to the NHL for the 2009/10 season (GM must provide a link supporting the latter)

Note: this rule has changed, in that a player does not have to have played a game in the NHL or AHL before being eligible to be signed, but rather has just signed an agreement to play in the NHL this coming season.
However, even if they have signed, they are still subject to rule (VIII) Free Agent Playing in Europe, in the event they return overseas.

(emphasis added)

Note that the rules state that signing is all that matters, and contemplates the player returning to Europe even after signing.

In this case, the player signed a contract to play this season in NA. Whether San Jose is subsequently excusing him from that agreement is irrelevant under the rule as posted above.

I don't particularly care because I doubt I bid enough to get the player, but I would like to see some consistency and I feel that if we make case by case changes to the rules someone is going to get screwed later when they don't place a bid on a guy.

 

[Canuck09]

Andreas Engqvist is actually not old enough to be signed as a UFA prospect in HFNHL this summer. He won't turn 22 until after Sept.15th (Dec. 23rd to be exact). The rule says that a european player has to be over 22 years old at the time of the signing. Thus, Engqvist should not eligible as a UFA until next summer, but he should be eligible again for the 2010 draft.

Does this mean he's going to be removed from the Sharks? The whole intent debate seems pointless if he's not even old enough for FA.

As for our rule about this, being that it's only one or two sentances long it's hard to cover every situation. Either way seems fair, as long as the rule is updated a little to apply going forward on a consistent basis.

 

[Brock]

So, what constitutes intent now? If someone posts a blog that my best friend's sister's boyfriend's brother's girlfriend saw player at 31 flavors last night claiming he was staying in Europe is that enough?

Intent seems to be a rather subjective standard. Either a player signs or doesn't. Either he plays in NA or he doesn't. Those are two objective standards. There isn't much wiggle room.

I'm going to have to agree with Rich here. I remember we had this same discussion last year when we agreed to change the rules in terms of the Euro signings (to adjust to the Brunnstrom situation).

I think if they sign an NHL deal, regardless of whether they come over, they should be eligible to be signed (as long as they are no longer eligible for our draft). Intent is so subjective, and it can also change. I say we allow Karlsson to be signed, and he is then added to a teams prospect list should be remain in Europe. Then when he comes over, the contract he signed comes into effect as he's added to a teams roster.

 

[Hossa]

I'm going to have to agree with Rich here. I remember we had this same discussion last year when we agreed to change the rules in terms of the Euro signings (to adjust to the Brunnstrom situation).

I think if they sign an NHL deal, regardless of whether they come over, they should be eligible to be signed (as long as they are no longer eligible for our draft). Intent is so subjective, and it can also change. I say we allow Karlsson to be signed, and he is then added to a teams prospect list should be remain in Europe. Then when he comes over, the contract he signed comes into effect as he's added to a teams roster.

I'm inclined to agree. There are other examples where the player signed, will attend training camp but may be "re-assigned" to Europe. Erik Karlsson is a good example of this. He has an NHL contract, will attend training camp and could play in Ottawa, but it seems the AHL and SEL are both options as well. Does attending training camp constitute "intent", even if he returns to Europe? Thankfully for the sake of confusion, this Karlsson is not up for grabs though.

 

[Dr.Sens(e)]

Some fair points to consider, and I can appreciate the consistency request. But that said, this has already been referred to as a "loop-hole" an NHL team is using, so we in the HFNHL need to be careful not to chase the NHL down a rabbit hole we wish we had never entered. Either way, we'll wait a few weeks to see what transpires, in particular, to see if there are a number of signings of European players like this. Intent is indeed a tricky thing to consider and admittedly subjective, but that isn't the end of the world if this truly is a unique case. Hopefully it is, in which case we might consider bids for Karlsson in the weeks ahead, but for the time being, let's be sure this doesn't turn into a flurry of deals of a similar nature. In that case, we might put forth a rule that clarifies "playing in NA this season" with some tougher teeth to it if possible.

And given the number of inquiries regarding this player, it's not like anyone is missing out on signing him because they were ahead of the pack on this. If there are a flurry of offers, waiting a few weeks isn't going to be a big deal.

 

[The old geezer]

Now you see why I question this

The other player in a similar situation (ie by all accounts is still under SEL contract and will be honouring it through this loophole) is indeed Engqvist but as has been pointed out he wasn't of HFNHL FA eligible age anyway.

The admin team might want to consider reversing this eligibility change so that the player has to indeed play in NA. I wouldn't be surprised if more NHL GM's jump on this loophole in the future and best to shut it down for the HFNHL unless FA turns into a second draft of overagers to move to future's lists. Heck you out bid teams on players to go to future's and if they work out you pay the contract, if they don't come over or are not worth the salary you just cut them as a 'prospect release' before their contract becomes active.

 

[HFNHL Commish]

The admin team might want to consider reversing this eligibility change so that the player has to indeed play in NA. I wouldn't be surprised if more NHL GM's jump on this loophole in the future and best to shut it down for the HFNHL unless FA turns into a second draft of overagers to move to future's lists. Heck you out bid teams on players to go to future's and if they work out you pay the contract, if they don't come over or are not worth the salary you just cut them as a 'prospect release' before their contract becomes active.

I think the risk of this becoming an epidemic in the NHL is slight, due to the fact that these players are still going to count against their team's 50-man roster.

The problem is defining who fits into the loophole, and who doesn't. Karlsson, to my knowledge, is really the first guy to come out and say "I'm not going over, regardless". Engqvist (his eligibility issues aside) at least appears to have every intention of trying to make the Habs before shunning the AHL for another season with Djurgardens.

I guess what it really comes down to is the IIHF transfer agreement, and whether a European team still holds some rights to a player when he hits the open market...

 

[Dr.Sens(e)]

Now you see why I question this

The other player in a similar situation (ie by all accounts is still under SEL contract and will be honouring it through this loophole) is indeed Engqvist but as has been pointed out he wasn't of HFNHL FA eligible age anyway.

The admin team might want to consider reversing this eligibility change so that the player has to indeed play in NA. I wouldn't be surprised if more NHL GM's jump on this loophole in the future and best to shut it down for the HFNHL unless FA turns into a second draft of overagers to move to future's lists. Heck you out bid teams on players to go to future's and if they work out you pay the contract, if they don't come over or are not worth the salary you just cut them as a 'prospect release' before their contract becomes active.

In one way, it would be easier in terms of knowing they are over here to play, but the problem is it is MUCH easier to process all of these during free agency, rather than waiting until September to see who actually shows up. In past, this hasn't really been an issue, but we may need to revisit it. Hopefully this is an anomoly.