Pull the goalie with 2 goals down?

HatesSetoguchi

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May 29, 2013
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I'm new here, so I apologize if this has already been analyzed, but I looked at some numbers a while back on whether a team should or shouldn't pull the goalie when they are down 2 goals. The question is this: Does that small chance to get at least 1 point outweigh the goals you expect to give up?

Goal differential is the third tiebreak at the end of the season. If points are tied, ROW is considered (and ROW should be close if points are tied). After ROW, points earned in games between the clubs is considered. If this again is tied, then goal differential is considered. This is rather far down the chain of tiebreaks, but is preserving your goal differential worth the minimal chance at gaining a point?

Of course, there are times when you absolutely need to try and get points (late in the regular season or playoffs where goal differential doesn't matter), but I'm going to try and look at generic games early in the season and between two average teams ('average' to mean overall statistics from 2011-2012 regular season).

Using 2011-2012 stats, teams scored every 32 minutes with 5v5 play, every 10.5 minutes with 6v5, and every 3.5 minutes scoring on empty nets. That means that you are around 3 times more likely to score when you pull the goalie instead of leaving him, but are still scored on 3 times more often than you score when you pull the goalie. These numbers are similar to the ones found in the paper given by Mathletic in 2009, page 4 (7.83 times as likely to score on empty net than 5v5, and 2.67 times as likely to score on 6v5 rather than 5v5).

During the 2 minutes the goalie is pulled when down 2 goals, it is estimated that the team down scores 2/10.5 = 19% of the time. I went on to estimate (first part being chance of scoring 2, second part being that other team not scoring) [(2/10.5)^2]*[1-(2/3.5)] = 1.6% of the time tying the game, and thus earning 1.5 points. I did this style of computing for the different cases (no goal, 1 for losing/winning team, 1 each, 2 for losing/winning team), and compared overall goal differential to points earned, and came up with this statistic:

Pulling the goalie, over a long period of time is expected to earn 1 point for every -15.4 goal differential.

Or, if you add 1 point to any team, could they still win the tiebreak after suffering a 15 point goal differential swing (for instance, Minnesota potentially could have tied Detroit in points at 56 this last year, but would've had -20 DIFF compared to Detroit's +9). A better case would be 2000-2001, where Boston (9th) and Carolina (8th) had 88 points. Although there wasn't ROW back then, if Boston had given up 10 fewer goals, they would have surpassed the Canes for a playoff spot, which these goals may have come from empty nets. Now I doubt that is the case, but something to consider.

To be honest, I don't think there are many cases where pulling/not pulling the goalie when down 2 goals would get a team into/out of the playoffs, so this may be a moot point, but it's something I thought was interesting.

I know my analysis is not perfect, but any thoughts?
 

tarheelhockey

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Interesting point. Next time we see a third tiebreaker situation, I'll know to go back and check if any of the losing team's ENGs against seemed frivolous.

edit: ^ That sounds kind of silly typed out. I'm not being sarcastic, it really is an interesting thing to consider in a third-tiebreaker situation.
 

n00bxQb

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Jul 26, 2010
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You also have to factor in the mental side of things. If you're playing for a coach that basically throws in the towel, as a player, you're probably not going to feel very motivated going forward.
 

Neely2005

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Nov 3, 2006
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Boston successfully pulled the goalie (well down by 2 goals) twice this season. Once in the regular season against the NYR & once (so far) in the playoffs against the leafs.
 

cujoflutie

Registered User
Take a look at this paper by Tim Swartz.
http://people.stat.sfu.ca/~tim/papers/goalie.pdf

Biggest issue with starting earlier than 90 seconds out is shift changes.

Yeah thats the big reason IMO why it isn't overly successful, teams rarely practice more than one unit with the goalie out. One thing i'm surprised no team has tried while down by 2;

3:00-2:00 remaining; empty net with the goalie out unit
2:00-1:00 remaining; goalie back in with a different unit
<1:00 remaining; empty net with goalie out unit.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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Aug 28, 2006
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Right or wrong, I think coaches are going to be afraid of sending the wrong message to their team by accepting a loss (and not pulling the goalie when 2 down is accepting the loss) on the chance that the team will need the third tiebreak to make the playoffs.
 

Jyrki

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May 24, 2011
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Yeah thats the big reason IMO why it isn't overly successful, teams rarely practice more than one unit with the goalie out. One thing i'm surprised no team has tried while down by 2;

3:00-2:00 remaining; empty net with the goalie out unit
2:00-1:00 remaining; goalie back in with a different unit
<1:00 remaining; empty net with goalie out unit.

You would only be able to put the goalie back in if you draw a whistle. Otherwise, it suffers from the shift issue.
 

Patman

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Feb 23, 2004
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The pulling the goalie thing is mostly a matter of social convention and psychology. Fact of the matter is if we had a band of hockey playing robots it would be advantageous to pull the goalie from any number of goals down assuming you are within a certain time left in the game. Yes, your best option is pulling the goalie when down by 7... mathematically. But I'm sure that won't go down without people thinking the coach has lost his mind.

One of these days I may kick out the code (I've written this a few times) that calculates the probability with pulling and without assuming poisson model and input rates. My intuition from available figures is that you probably should pull than coaches are comfortable with but one also does not know what adjustments to technique would occur. Dangers of static decisions on a dynamic system.

edit: Needing a third tie-breaker would be close to a statistical anomaly. As its said, better to pick up the point than to hope goal differential will save your butt. One COULD analyze it... but really, its not worth it. The gain on points in goalie pull situations would outweigh the possible benefit.
 

Sens Rule

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Sep 22, 2005
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Of course pulling the goalie really, really early is giving up the chance to just score 5-5 and get to within 1 goal and then pull the goalie. Often when a team has pressure it seems that they are better off just pushing the momentum to score 5-5 until it gets to 1:45/1:30. Also when you have pressure late down by 2 goals you seem to get PPs quite often as the defending team gets desperate.

There are lots of different possible outcomes then purely pulling the goalie 2 men down. Or deciding how early to do so.
 

McManked

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Jan 16, 2011
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You would only be able to put the goalie back in if you draw a whistle. Otherwise, it suffers from the shift issue.
Technically no I believe.

I think it's possible to interchange goalies on the fly, at least according to Hockey Canada rules.
 

hockeydude1

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Mar 9, 2008
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I'm still waiting for that team that pulls the goalie when nobody expects it. Winning 3-0in the third and decide what the hell. We are winning anyways!
 

rfournier103

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I have only seen it be successfu ONCE in my entire life, and it resulted in one of the most thrilling games in any sport I have ever watched. I suppose the coach can say to himself, "what do I have to lose?"
 

Ishdul

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Dallas Eakins has a reputation of pulling the goalie down 2 with 10 minutes or less to go if his team has a powerplay.
 

ThirdManIn

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I'm still waiting for that team that pulls the goalie when nobody expects it. Winning 3-0in the third and decide what the hell. We are winning anyways!

Trotz did this in 2006-2007 against Anaheim. Nashville was up 2-0 late in the third and going on the powerplay. Trotz pulled Vokoun to get a two man advantage. Sullivan scored to make it 3-0. Giggy was not happy about it :laugh:
 

King Mapes

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I have only seen it be successfu ONCE in my entire life, and it resulted in one of the most thrilling games in any sport I have ever watched. I suppose the coach can say to himself, "what do I have to lose?"

It happened twice this year alone.
 

BM67

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Some stats from the 1988-89 season.

---

During the 1988-89 season, coaches pulled their goalies 362 times according to statistics compiled by Inside Hockey. On only 29 occasions did the strategy result in a goal. That's just 8 percent of the time.

(Seven of those goals were scored with the added benefit of a power play, thus creating a two-man advantage.)

Meanwhile, 132 empty-net goals were scored. That's 36.5 percent of the time.

Only 13 times out of 362 tries - 3.59 percent - did the tactic lead to a tie game in regulation time. (Sixteen of the goals were scored when a team was down at least two goals.) In two of those 13 games, the tying team went on to lose in overtime.

Finally, get this. Just once, a microscopic .28 percent of 362 occasions, did a team win a game after its goalie was pulled.

(A second win was recorded May 19 during the Stanley Cup finals when Montreal's Mats Naslund scored with Patrick Roy out of the net. Ryan Walter went on to score in double overtime to give the Canadiens a 4-3 victory and 2-1 lead in the showdown.)

Not once this past season did the Vancouver Canucks earn as much as a point from pulling their goalie... and coach Bob McCammon lifted his goalie 24 times. The Canucks allowed a league high 12 empty-net goals, while scoring just once with their goalie removed - a power-play marker in a 7-6 loss to Page's North Stars on Nov. 17.
 

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