Player Discussion Prime Alfie vs. Prime Karlsson

[PoutineSp00nZ]

That's absolutely true:


Source

And this 2006 article by Scanlan in the Citizen confirms.

A lot of fans hated on Alfie in a serious way until he went into God mode in 2007. Nobody will ever admit it now because the guy is revered in the city, but its very much true.

 

[DrEasy]

My (still broken) heart says Alf, my brain says Karlsson. I voted Karlsson.

The scary thing is, Karlsson looks like he could play even better than what he's shown us. And there's still the question of how much the Cooke injury may have affected him to this day.

Whereas Alf seemed to play to the entire extent of his potential, and actually a whole lot more than that. But that's why we loved him so much.

 

[tony d]

Close but Alfie for me.

 

[NyQuil]

It's obviously a tough question and depends on how long a "prime" stint actually is.

I would argue that Alfredsson's playoff run in 2007 is the finest performance by any Senators player to date.

Next to that, I would be tempted to put Karlsson's 14 games prior to the Cooke injury.

If we're looking at entire seasons, it is also pretty close. EK was historically dominant offensively but Alfie put together impressive numbers with almost Selke level defence.

Good question all around.

 

[armani]

It's obviously a tough question and depends on how long a "prime" stint actually is.

I would argue that Alfredsson's playoff run in 2007 is the finest performance by any Senators player to date.

Next to that, I would be tempted to put Karlsson's 14 games prior to the Cooke injury.

If we're looking at entire seasons, it is also pretty close. EK was historically dominant offensively but Alfie put together impressive numbers with almost Selke level defence.

Good question all around.

I have tears in my eyes. Alfie of 2007 was super human. Like I said elsewhere, minus the team trophies, Alfie has been everything that are found in pro-Toews views about Jonathan being the one of the best (mostly by media) - yet not many out of this town really talked about our small town hero (other than calling him Krusty and then slowly and begrudgingly admitting he's a good player...nothing beyond that in terms of recognizance until he reached close to 40).

As a Sens fan, I am hoping Karlsson will eclipse that moment during his tenure here. EK65 is the best player this team has drafted.

 

[NyQuil]

Another interesting option would be Heatley's January 2007 NHL Player of the Month performance.

Or Hammond's end of year run.

Those are pretty small sample sizes of guys I suppose.

 

[Adele Dazeem]

Alfie has the resume, but Karl is on another level skill wise.

 

[Sensinitis]

Very close but for me it's Alfie until EK leads the Sens deep in the playoffs.

 

[Don Draper]

Another interesting option would be Heatley's January 2007 NHL Player of the Month performance.

Or Hammond's end of year run.

Those are pretty small sample sizes of guys I suppose.

Most of our greatest performances get wiped out because of the depth of great players we once had.

I would argue Hossa in 03-04 was the most complete player in hockey. It is almost not thought of it n hindsight given the other guys on the roster, but 250lb wingers weren't supposed to have that much skill and care that much about defensive play.


As for the question at hand, alfie from 05-07 was just beautiful hockey. It was mentioned about his work on the point, but I don't know if we will ever see another player control from the half-wall like alfie did. Just slowed everything down and methodically broke down defenses. Alfie and EK are two of the very best at slowing down the play and waiting for mistakes. Just marvelous anticipation and patience.

 

[L'Aveuglette]

This thread is evil.

I still had to choose Alfie in the end. Whether that's accurate or not I can't be sure. Come back to me in five years.

 

[Don Draper]

Just to make this a little more fair

When alfie was 26, the best skater in the world was a Sen. His name was Alexei Yashin.

So, lots can still change in this conversation.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Alfie was a great Sen.

Karlsson is in the argument for best player in the world. IMO Alfie was never in that class.

 

[Scrub*]

Karlfie

 

[NyQuil]

I would agree that Karlsson is the better player but that Alfredsson has put up the better performance to date.

Plenty of time for Karlsson to usurp that title too.

What was special about Alfie was his record of improvement well into his 30s.

Very few players peak that late in their careers.

 

[Nordic*]

Alfie had e-v-e-r-y-t-h-i-n-g. A complete player.

Karlsson does not and is not.

Karlsson is more rare in the sense that he goes ppg as a defenceman, but he also loses games by putting in half-assed performances.

Alfie did not.

If Karlsson had Alfies heart, drive, engine and leadership - he would've been the best player in the NHL.

 

[NyQuil]

Most of our greatest performances get wiped out because of the depth of great players we once had.

I would argue Hossa in 03-04 was the most complete player in hockey. It is almost not thought of it n hindsight given the other guys on the roster, but 250lb wingers weren't supposed to have that much skill and care that much about defensive play.


As for the question at hand, alfie from 05-07 was just beautiful hockey. It was mentioned about his work on the point, but I don't know if we will ever see another player control from the half-wall like alfie did. Just slowed everything down and methodically broke down defenses. Alfie and EK are two of the very best at slowing down the play and waiting for mistakes. Just marvelous anticipation and patience.

Hossa did a lot with Bonk as his centre. I was never a big fan of Bonk and he was almost complementary to Hossa's individual package of skills and drive. White and Bonk never really lived up as top line centres while we had exceptional RWers.

Alfie's ability to gain the offensive zone with the puck might have been his most elite skill. He never really had to dump and chase because he was strong enough to hold off players and skilled enough to dangle and stick handle long enough for his linemates to follow. That sharp turn back after gaining the zone was vintage Alfie.

It's a bit of a subtle art but boy do we miss that now. I like Turris, Stone and Hoffman but they can't slow the play down under complete control the way Alfie could. Ryan might be the only forward who can do that but it's pretty inconsistent and he's not as strong on his skates.

 

[Don Draper]

Hossa did a lot with Bonk as his centre. I was never a big fan of Bonk and he was almost complementary to Hossa's individual package of skills and drive. White and Bonk never really lived up as top line centres while we had exceptional RWers.

Alfie's ability to gain the offensive zone with the puck might have been his most elite skill. He never really had to dump and chase because he was strong enough to hold off players and skilled enough to dangle and stick handle long enough for his linemates to follow. That sharp turn back after gaining the zone was vintage Alfie.

It's a bit of a subtle art but boy do we miss that now. I like Turris, Stone and Hoffman but they can't slow the play down under complete control the way Alfie could. Ryan might be the only forward who can do that but it's pretty inconsistent and he's not as strong on his skates.

It's funny bringing up Stone, Turris and Hoffman in a conversation about Alfie. Their skillsets combine to make a pretty good collage of Alfies overall package. Hoffmans skating and boomerang shot, Turris stature and cerebral play, and stones hands, defensive play and thought process. Alfie just was able to keep growing himself to build on every part of his game like very few we have ever seen.

A true master of all. 2006 Alfie will always be tremendously underrated because of how the season finished, but the year off seemed to help him more than anyone else we had. He came back so much bigger than he'd been, while not losing anything in the process.

 

[L'Aveuglette]

Alfie had e-v-e-r-y-t-h-i-n-g. A complete player.

Karlsson does not and is not.

Karlsson is more rare in the sense that he goes ppg as a defenceman, but he also loses games by putting in half-assed performances.

Alfie did not.

If Karlsson had Alfies heart, drive, engine and leadership - he would've been the best player in the NHL.

Except Alfie at EK's age was not the player he was in his 30s, which is why I think this question should be asked again when Erik's in his 30s as well.

 

[Nordic*]

Except Alfie at EK's age was not the player he was in his 30s, which is why I think this question should be asked again when Erik's in his 30s as well.

Sure, but most players don't see their prime years in their mid 30s.

Pretty sure that Karlsson won't be a Norris contender when he's 35, since he builds a lot of his game around speed.

 

[trentmccleary]

Sure, but most players don't see their prime years in their mid 30s.

In Alfredsson's first 10 years in NA, 4 were marred by injury (Season 3-S6) and 1 was wiped out with a lockout (S10). If those injuries weren't so severe, you would have seen a much quicker progression to stardom.

Plus, that lockout was smack dab between Alfie finishing 7th in scoring and then 4th in scoring... and you know, we had a stacked team that could have contended for that 2005 year with Hasek signed.

 

[KevinRedkey]

As much as I love Alfie, there's only 1 of these two players that could arguably be considered the best player in the NHL at their peak, and it's not him.

 

[SlapJack]

Alfredsson was fantastic, but no one ever considered him to be one of the best players in the game or even at his position. It's Karlsson for me, he is one of the few talents you specifically pay to see play.

You could make a similar comparison with Gretzky/Messier. There's no denying that Wayne was the best, but Messier brought different elements to the table to make him a potent force.

Anyway, I'm thankful that we managed to see 11 and 65 play together and have Alfie provide his mentorship for Karlsson. Such a shame that Alfredsson didn't finish his career in Ottawa...

 

[armani]

Alfie was underrated in mainstream media in his 20s and early 30s. Toews apologists use superlatives that describe what we have seen Alfie do in his prime minus team accolades (check any Toews thread). He was playing through different eras where Jagr, Lidstrom, Fedorov, Sakic, Forsberg, Iginla, MSL, Crosby, and Ovechkin reigned supreme. Alfie had elite competitions in much larger markets who got more name and recognition - but I would argue he was always very consistent when healthy in terms of being a top level winger. As some pointed out, he was also marred by injury issues in his 20s, so he really didn't bloom until his 30s.

 

[Micklebot]

As much as I love Alfie, there's only 1 of these two players that could arguably be considered the best player in the NHL at their peak, and it's not him.

Alfie was the best player on the best line in hockey for a while, but in his best year, both Jagr and Thornton were absolute monsters.

However, during his peak from 2005-2008 he was 5th in pts per game, behind only Spezza, Ovechkin, Crosby, and Thornton while easily being the best defensive player out of the group, and providing top tier leadership/intangibles. He also had the second most goals and goals per game (OV obviously ran away with that one).

His peak was extremely good and while perhaps not the best player in the league, likely merited to be in the conversation more than he ever was.

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

Karlsson is probably already a better player than Alfie ever was, but Alfie brought more to the table so far. What Alfie lacks in talent (when compared to Karlsson) he more than makes up for it with his leadership ability, his amazing two way play, and his insane work ethic. Alfredsson was one of the hardest working players to ever play for Sens, never held back his emotion and always gave it his all. If Karlsson had Alfredsson's work ethic he'd challenge for the best player in the league.