Post-Game Talk: Preds @ Flames - 7:30 MT SN1

[SKRusty]

I give up, Gio's more than happy with the Flames and he will understand if JG gets more money as Gio wasn't in the nhl at JG's age.

Much is documented about Gio's expectations about work ethic.

Somehow, some way, a young team, in really only the second full season of the rebuild, made the playoffs last season, and Giordano was in the Norris Trophy conversation when a biceps tear ended his year. Organizationally, the template they’d set – and the framework they’d put in place – survived his absence and the team continued to thrive.

“It was probably the most difficult surgery I’ve gone through, because of the situation – us getting back into the playoffs and making the run,†said Giordano, who is being paired with newcomer Dougie Hamilton for the first four days of camp. “You’re around the room and you’re around the guys, but when you’re not on the ice, you’re not part of it. Some days, it was tough.

“But I was happy our team proved once again that the way we play is as a team. It’s not about individuals. It doesn’t matter who we add or who we let go or who gets injured. I think we’re successful because of the style we play. Because we work so hard and our forwards are so good at back checking and turning the puck over, anyone can step in and be successful in this system.â€

Flames’ coach Bob Hartley had one of the great captains in history when he won the Stanley Cup in Colorado and believes there are lots of parallels between Joe Sakic, the Hall Of Famer, and Giordano – in their ability levels and in the way they comport themselves.

“I’ve rarely coached such a passionate human being as Gio,†Hartley said. “If there was a good part to that injury, we may have lot a defenceman but we still had our captain. Usually, we keep injured guys at home, but I wanted him around the team because he’s such a great influence on everybody.â€

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/flames-captain-mark-giordano-leading-through-actions-instead-of-words/article26442540/

I think the paragraph highlighted would fly in the face of what you say.

 

[Flames Fanatic]

When both our PP and PK are consistently at the bottom of the league, it becomes obvious the issue at the very least is compounded by our personnel in that area. Namely, Gelinas.

I've tried to steer clear of getting involved in this discussion because I think its absolutely ludicrous and I know my emotions will get the better of me, however I want to add one small tidbit.

It's hardly Johnny's fault that he is the only player on the entire damn team that consistently enter the opposition's zone without losing the damn puck.

 

[TheHudlinator]

Much is documented about Gio's expectations about work ethic.


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/flames-captain-mark-giordano-leading-through-actions-instead-of-words/article26442540/

I think the paragraph highlighted would fly in the face of what you say.

So its the system? but you want to fire Hartley who made the system? If anyone can do it why is Johnny the only one that can go pp? Seems like a huge reach to say that he thinks someone could replace JG. He doesn't say JG isn't hard working.

 

[moon*]

What evidence can you possibly present to support either of these claims. Please, we're all waiting.

Well the Hawks have won 3 years with Patrick Kane on their team, the Kings won with Marian Gaborik.

So long as you have other guys to be the leaders and do the heavy lifting like Toews, Keith, Seabrook, Doughty, Kopitar, Quick etc. Then you can easily have the guys who only worry about scoring.

As for the teams issue on the PP they take awful low percentage shots after holding the puck forever. Gaudreau is brutal for skating around on the outside holding the puck and doing nothing. Fans get excited because it looks flashy when he circles around and holds the puck but it does absolutely nothing.

Watching the top PP's they are usually very direct pass, pass shoot plays that end up scoring. They rarely waste time looking for a perfect pass or setting up a booming shot that misses the net by 10 feet.

I know often people think that it is the flashy "skill" plays that make the PP great but more often than not it is the simple, smart plays that work. You have a 5 on 4 advantage use that to your benefit rather than trying to go 1 on 4 and beating the whole team.

 

[SKRusty]

I've tried to steer clear of getting involved in this discussion because I think its absolutely ludicrous and I know my emotions will get the better of me, however I want to add one small tidbit.

It's hardly Johnny's fault that he is the only player on the entire damn team that consistently enter the opposition's zone without losing the damn puck.

FF Johnny is a star. He is a great young player. He will learn to be better. My argument is simply that now is not the time to break the bank.

 

[Volica]

Much is documented about Gio's expectations about work ethic.
I think the paragraph highlighted would fly in the face of what you say.

I think you might want to take DBU's advice on the last page and take a step back from the keyboard amigo. Sometimes you can't dig yourself out of a hole.

Our only offensive threat every night is going to get paid. Giordano is the captain, and his salary set the standard for the team at the time; Johnny is top 10 in league scoring, and if he wasn't on this team, we'd likely be in our world of bad (think Leafs, but worse). This is about cap management... Stars get paid. Cap management pays stars, but has low cost bottom options.

So, no more handing out 7 million dollars to have Bollig, Stajan and Bouma on the bottom line. That's cap management.

 

[SKRusty]

So its the system? but you want to fire Hartley who made the system? If anyone can do it why is Johnny the only one that can go pp? Seems like a huge reach to say that he thinks someone could replace JG. He doesn't say JG isn't hard working.

It is Gio's quote. In his belief as team mates not individuals. Hard work and so forth. If Johnny bridges for 2-3 years and produces then Gio and Brodie would see it as having worked for the contract. Gio and Brodie want a cup in Calgary. That is why they signed for very reasonable amounts because for them it is about the team.

 

[moon*]

John is hardly our only offensive threat, and certainly not every night as he takes a ton of games off.

This team would be Leafs bad if you take off Monahan or Brodie as well. Heck we are basically Leafs bad now with them all on the team.

 

[TheHudlinator]

It is Gio's quote. In his belief as team mates not individuals. Hard work and so forth. If Johnny bridges for 2-3 years and produces then Gio and Brodie would see it as having worked for the contract. Gio and Brodie want a cup in Calgary. That is why they signed for very reasonable amounts because for them it is about the team.

What a ****ing reach

 

[DCDM]

It is Gio's quote. In his belief as team mates not individuals. Hard work and so forth. If Johnny bridges for 2-3 years and produces then Gio and Brodie would see it as having worked for the contract. Gio and Brodie want a cup in Calgary. That is why they signed for very reasonable amounts because for them it is about the team.

Good lord, you're actually serious, aren't you?

 

[Volica]

It is Gio's quote. In his belief as team mates not individuals. Hard work and so forth. If Johnny bridges for 2-3 years and produces then Gio and Brodie would see it as having worked for the contract. Gio and Brodie want a cup in Calgary. That is why they signed for very reasonable amounts because for them it is about the team.

Brodie signed before he turned into a star. Gio's cap hit of $6.75 is very reasonable; I mean, that's probably only 250k less than market value if he hit FA this summer.

It is about the team. But you have a kid who's PPG while carrying his line. You're not going to bridge him like you might be able to do with Monahan. With Monahan you can point to Johnny and say "well, this guy carrier you offensively; before we hand out a big contract, we need to know if you can put up numbers without him." With Johnny, what can you say? "Well, can you do it 3 times? Well, can you do it if we gave you 4th liner teammates? Let's wait and see if you can go OVER a PPG with another elite talent."

Johnny's getting 7-8 years here, and he's getting money. Not much to argue about. He's the best forward on this team and arguably the best player on this team along with Brodie. There's not much BT can do. RyJo still got a 5 million dollar bridge, and he was putting up significantly less points than Johnny... So you could try, but you're taking a huge risk here; you'd be looking at 6 million for 2 years; but you run the risk of having to give him big, big, big money after that, especially if you get him some elite linemates.

 

[The Gnome]

John is hardly our only offensive threat, and certainly not every night as he takes a ton of games off.

This team would be Leafs bad if you take off Monahan or Brodie as well. Heck we are basically Leafs bad now with them all on the team.

But you're just wrong. I've literally never seen Johnny take a night off. EVER. I've seen him have down games where he still works his ass off.

He is the offensive engine of this team, there is no disputing that. period. Monohan has decent hands and a wicked shot, but he's not the one driving the play, that's JG. Bennett looks to be another guy who can create plays out of thin air. But he's not even close to Johnny's level yet.

 

[FlamesFan18]

John is hardly our only offensive threat, and certainly not every night as he takes a ton of games off.

This team would be Leafs bad if you take off Monahan or Brodie as well. Heck we are basically Leafs bad now with them all on the team.

F
Gaudreau >>Jvr
Monahan=Kadri
Frolik=Komarov
Backlund<=Bozak
Nylander<Bennett

Pretty even... plus Leafs have better depth and prospects on forward IMO sadly

Giordano >> Rielly
Brodie >> Gardiner
Hamilton >>> Hunwick

This is where we have them considerably although Rielly has high potential to become better than one of our top 3, the rest are worse and always will be. Prospects are a wash


Goaltending is equally awful

 

[DCDM]

John is hardly our only offensive threat, and certainly not every night as he takes a ton of games off.

 

[moon*]

But you're just wrong. I've literally never seen Johnny take a night off. EVER. I've seen him have down games where he still works his ass off.

He is the offensive engine of this team, there is no disputing that. period. Monohan has decent hands and a wicked shot, but he's not the one driving the play, that's JG. Bennett looks to be another guy who can create plays out of thin air. But he's not even close to Johnny's level yet.

The recent 7 (or 8?) John took a number of games off during that recent streak. I can rarely if ever think of a game where he worked hard.

 

[Bosnian Beast]

John is hardly our only offensive threat, and certainly not every night as he takes a ton of games off.

This team would be Leafs bad if you take off Monahan or Brodie as well. Heck we are basically Leafs bad now with them all on the team.

What... what ****ing universe are you from? Must be a pretty ****** parallel universe because I've hardly ever (if ever) seen Gaudreau take a night off. He's had bad games before, but I can't say I've seen him take a night off, let alone a ton of them.

 

[The Gnome]

The recent 7 (or 8?) John took a number of games off during that recent streak. I can rarely if ever think of a game where he worked hard.

I've watched 5/8. unless the 3 games I didn't watch were Johnny just skating laps, I have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[moon*]

I've watched 5/8. unless the 3 games I didn't watch were Johnny just skating laps, I have no idea what you are talking about.

Then I guess you have no idea because there were certainly more than 3 games in the past 10 or so that John took off and was completely useless and invisible out there, unless you noticed him giving the puck up easily.

 

[TheHudlinator]

If you include when we play Vancouver, than I guess Sbisa is also a top offensive threat for us

 

[Bosnian Beast]

The recent 7 (or 8?) John took a number of games off during that recent streak. I can rarely if ever think of a game where he worked hard.

He had four games without a point (Boston, Buffalo, Pittsburgh, San Jose) during said streak.

Boston: Lost 2-1
Buffalo: Lost 6-3
Pittsburgh: Won 4-2
San Jose: Lost 2-1

I watched the Pittsburgh and San Jose games (was in class during the Boston and Buffalo games), and can't say I saw Johnny taking those games off. The fact is Johnny is one of the hardest working players on this team, and is usually one of the most emotional guys when the team is losing or he makes a bad play. He wears his heart on his sleeve and busts his ass, if you can't see that then you need to get off the drugs.

 

[Bosnian Beast]

Then I guess you have no idea because there were certainly more than 3 games in the past 10 or so that John took off and was completely useless and invisible out there, unless you noticed him giving the puck up easily.

Being ineffective =/= taking a night off. Sometimes yes, but not everytime.

 

[moon*]

Being ineffective =/= taking a night off. Sometimes yes, but not everytime.

I agree. Some of our most ineffective guys give it 100% (seems to describe Jooris to a tee).

Just like getting points =/= trying hard. You can take a night off and still pick up a cheap assist.

 

[moon*]

He had four games without a point (Boston, Buffalo, Pittsburgh, San Jose) during said streak.

Boston: Lost 2-1
Buffalo: Lost 6-3
Pittsburgh: Won 4-2
San Jose: Lost 2-1

I watched the Pittsburgh and San Jose games (was in class during the Boston and Buffalo games), and can't say I saw Johnny taking those games off. The fact is Johnny is one of the hardest working players on this team, and is usually one of the most emotional guys when the team is losing or he makes a bad play. He wears his heart on his sleeve and busts his ass, if you can't see that then you need to get off the drugs.

I certainly see him pouting and whinning when things don't go his way. I don't see that as a good thing or signs he is trying.

I thought he was very useless and invisible against Buffalo, SJ and Boston in particular.

Didn't notice him much in the Islanders, Kings or Anaheim games either.

 

[Bosnian Beast]

I agree. Some of our most ineffective guys give it 100% (seems to describe Jooris to a tee).

Just like getting points =/= trying hard. You can take a night off and still pick up a cheap assist.

Good thing most of his assists are primary assists then, eh?

I certainly see him pouting and whinning when things don't go his way. I don't see that as a good thing or signs he is trying.

I thought he was very useless and invisible against Buffalo, SJ and Boston in particular.

Didn't notice him much in the Islanders, Kings or Anaheim games either.

Considering the whole team was firing during that San Jose game, I'd say no. I can't speak regarding the Buffalo or Boston games as mentioned before, but I a pretty sure everyone else (except maybe SKRusty) would say something different.

Edit: Just to look at some stats quickly...
San Jose: four shots, no goals, even on the night with 25:25 TOI
NY Islanders: five shots, an assist, -1 on the night with 21:45 TOI
LA Kings: two shots, an assist, -1 on the night with 17:31 TOI
Anaheim: three shots, an assist, -2 on the night with 17:27 TOI

So I'm going to have to call ********.

 

[Flameshomer]

Well the Hawks have won 3 years with Patrick Kane on their team, the Kings won with Marian Gaborik.

So long as you have other guys to be the leaders and do the heavy lifting like Toews, Keith, Seabrook, Doughty, Kopitar, Quick etc. Then you can easily have the guys who only worry about scoring.

As for the teams issue on the PP they take awful low percentage shots after holding the puck forever. Gaudreau is brutal for skating around on the outside holding the puck and doing nothing. Fans get excited because it looks flashy when he circles around and holds the puck but it does absolutely nothing.

Watching the top PP's they are usually very direct pass, pass shoot plays that end up scoring. They rarely waste time looking for a perfect pass or setting up a booming shot that misses the net by 10 feet.

I know often people think that it is the flashy "skill" plays that make the PP great but more often than not it is the simple, smart plays that work. You have a 5 on 4 advantage use that to your benefit rather than trying to go 1 on 4 and beating the whole team.

[mod]

Read what I asked you and then read what you said. I don't know why it's relevant at all to talk about the hawks and kings in this scenario, johnny has nowhere near the support either of those players have. Gaborik isn't a good comparable at all, it's a stretch to say he's even a top 3 offensive player on the kings these days (Toffoli Carter and Kopitar are all superior). Regardless, how does this point reflect at all on johnny's own effort level and defensive acumen?

Moving on to the powerplay- you literally admit that it's a team problem in your first sentence. See DBU's above post about pp point percentage vis a vis johnny. I can't see a logical argument at all that johnny is negative for our powerplay. Given your own observations, i think the logical conclusion is that johnny agrees with you that our strategy sucks, and that he's holding on to the puck and cycling in hopes something superior will develop (while he's watching the opposition clog the shooting lanes they know we're going to use because we do it every single time).

I have never once seen johnny on a powerplay try and do it all on his own. IF anything, he passes too often and doesn't do that often enough (he does it in OT and look at the result).

You've literally libeled johnny throughout this entire thread. There is no evidence anywhere that he has a poor attitude, poor defensive acumen, and takes nights off. In fact, there's a mountain of evidence that suggests you're blatantly lying.