Interesting list, seems there was a bit of an internal struggle between the value of goalies and skaters that were teammates.
An accurate observation and a massive understatement. I staunchly remain conflicted about directly comparing skaters and goalies.
As for my rationales (i.e. excuses):
Initial List
With only ~24 hours to go (due to my last-second decision to join), and knowing absolutely nothing about hockey history, I used
pnep's
HHOF Monitor as an inspiration to create my own spreadsheet tallying post-season accomplishments and giving them different weights. I don't have the original weights anymore (since I kept tinkering with it for a little while afterward), but here's the latest version, and it gives you an idea:
Name|Era|Adj. GP|Adj. PTS|CS|SC W|SC L|Captaincy|Vs2|G 1st|G 2nd|G top 5|Vs2|PTS 1st|PTS 2nd|PTS top 5|Adj. PTS/GP|BGE
Wayne Gretzky (C)|1980|213|327|2|4|2|5|1.15|1|2|3|7.29|6|0|2|1.54|2299
Maurice Richard (RW)|1940|264|223|2|8|4|4|6.01|5|4|1|2.22|2|2|5|0.84|2290
Jean Beliveau (C)|1950|295|314|2|10|3|6|1.71|1|3|3|1.36|1|3|6|1.06|2259
Gordie Howe (RW)|1950|307|316|1|4|7|0|4.01|3|1|3|6.55|6|0|3|1.03|2217
Bernie Geoffrion (RW)|1950|261|236|1|6|4|0|2.58|2|1|5|2.5|2|3|2|0.9|1835
Mark Messier (LW/C)|1980|241|258|1|6|1|2|0|0|2|3|1|1|2|2|1.07|1433
Guy Lafleur (RW)|1970|162|149|1|5|0|0|2.2|2|1|2|3.24|3|1|1|0.92|1401
Joe Sakic (C)|1995|162|192|1|2|0|2|2.82|2|1|0|2.39|2|1|2|1.19|1366
Ted Kennedy (C)|1940|154|109|3|5|0|2|2.77|2|0|2|1.27|1|3|1|0.71|1366
Dickie Moore (LW)|1950|258|210|0|6|4|0|1.2|1|1|3|2.32|2|1|2|0.81|1346
Frank McGee (F)|1900||59|2|2|1|0|5.36|3|0|0|5.36|3|0|0||1321
Mario Lemieux (C)|1980|107|159|2|2|0|2|1.23|1|2|1|2.51|2|1|0|1.49|1297
Bobby Hull (LW)|1960|200|207|0|1|3|0|3.54|3|1|2|1.06|1|1|3|1.04|1264
Cy Denneny (LW)|1917|120|51|0|5|0|3|4.25|3|2|1|1|1|2|3|0.43|1264
Phil Esposito (C)|1970|190|169|0|2|3|0|3.18|3|0|2|3.55|3|0|1|0.89|1239
Mike Bossy (RW)|1980|140|136|1|4|1|0|3.68|3|0|1|1.21|1|2|1|0.97|1226
Yvan Cournoyer (RW)|1970|218|159|1|10|1|4|1.5|1|0|2|1.04|1|1|2|0.73|1241
Ted Lindsay (LW)|1950|265|197|0|4|3|3|1.25|1|0|5|1|1|2|1|0.74|1176
Jari Kurri (RW)|1980|205|196|0|5|2|0|4.34|4|0|0|0|0|1|3|0.96|1163
Howie Morenz (C)|1917|120|85|1|3|1|0|4.5|2|1|0|3|2|0|0|0.71|1146
Frank Mahovlich (LW)|1960|239|182|0|6|2|0|1.27|1|1|3|1.08|1|0|4|0.76|1148
Frank Boucher (C)|1917|137|117|1|2|3|0|3.5|1|0|1|3.13|2|0|0|0.85|1097
Bryan Trottier (C)|1980|240|163|1|6|1|0|1|1|0|1|2.33|2|1|0|0.68|1073
Jacques Lemaire (C)|1970|194|160|0|8|0|0|1.1|1|0|2|1|1|0|4|0.82|1071
Henri Richard (C)|1960|306|214|0|11|1|1|0|0|0|2|1|1|0|2|0.7|1051
Alex Delvecchio (C)|1950|239|206|0|3|5|3|0|0|1|3|0|0|1|4|0.86|1008
Patrick Kane (RW)|2005|123|134|1|3|0|0|0|0|2|1|1|1|1|2|1.09|979
Peter Forsberg (C)|1995|139|180|0|2|0|0|0|0|1|2|2.22|2|0|1|1.29|971
Norm Ullman (C)|1960|194|149|0|0|5|0|1|1|1|2|2.36|2|1|0|0.77|929
Stan Mikita (C)|1960|252|223|1|1|4|0|1.2|1|0|1|1.31|1|0|2|0.88|931
Marty Barry (C)|1927|105|94|1|2|1|0|1|1|1|1|2.57|2|0|1|0.9|922
Newsy Lalonde (C)|1917|28|29|0|0|1|1|2.9|2|0|0|3.63|2|0|0|1.04|880
Syl Apps (C)|1940|141|99|1|3|3|3|1|1|0|4|1|1|0|3|0.7|894
Steve Yzerman (C)|1995|196|186|1|3|1|4|0|0|0|1|1.2|1|1|0|0.95|881
Sergei Fedorov (C)|1995|162|170|0|3|1|0|1.11|1|0|0|1.14|1|1|1|1.05|879
Toe Blake (LW)|1940|120|98|1|3|1|3|1|1|0|1|1.06|1|2|0|0.82|877
Sidney Crosby (C)|2005|124|151|1|2|1|3|1.07|1|0|0|1|1|1|0|1.22|855
Frank Nighbor (C)|1917|109|62|0|4|0|0|1|1|0|1|2.83|2|0|2|0.57|857
Doug Gilmour (C)|1980|184|170|0|1|0|0|0|0|0|3|1|1|1|2|0.92|839
Brett Hull (RW)|1995|201|188|0|2|2|0|2.21|2|0|2|1.04|1|0|0|0.94|839
Gordie Drillon (RW)|1927|103|76|1|1|3|0|2.57|2|0|2|1|1|1|0|0.74|782
Evgeni Malkin (C)|2005|124|142|1|2|1|0|0|0|1|1|1.16|1|0|1|1.15|780
Glenn Anderson (RW)|1980|230|180|0|6|1|0|0|0|1|0|0|0|0|3|0.78|777
John Bucyk (LW)|1970|188|133|0|2|4|2|1|1|1|1|0|0|0|4|0.71|751
Claude Lemieux (RW)|1995|234|152|1|4|1|0|2.3|2|0|1|0|0|0|1|0.65|748
Jaromir Jagr (RW)|1995|149|157|0|2|0|0|0|0|2|2|0|0|0|2|1.05|734
Charlie Conacher (RW)|1927|114|88|1|1|3|1|1|1|1|1|1|1|1|0|0.77|728
Elmer Lach (C)|1940|150|109|1|3|3|0|0|0|0|1|1.31|1|0|2|0.73|706
Milt Schmidt (C)|1940|174|95|1|2|2|1|0|0|1|2|1.38|1|0|1|0.55|686
Cooney Weiland (C)|1927|105|62|0|2|2|1|1|1|0|1|2.13|2|0|1|0.59|672
Reggie Leach (RW)|1970|118|73|1|1|2|0|2.38|1|0|1|1.26|1|0|0|0.62|648
Mike Modano (C)|1995|149|141|0|1|2|0|0|0|1|0|0|0|2|0|0.95|643
Dick Duff (LW)|1960|210|135|0|6|3|0|0|0|0|2|0|0|0|2|0.64|639
Denis Savard (C)|1980|172|150|0|1|0|0|0|0|1|0|0|0|0|3|0.87|596
Esa Tikkanen (LW)|1980|187|118|0|5|1|0|0|0|0|3|0|0|0|2|0.63|612
Dave Keon (C)|1960|163|110|1|4|0|0|0|0|2|0|0|0|0|1|0.67|606
Ceece Dillon (RW)|1927|100|59|1|1|2|0|1.6|1|0|1|1.43|1|0|0|0.59|586
Bert Olmstead (LW)|1950|228|120|0|5|6|0|0|0|0|1|0|0|1|1|0.53|589
Bob Pulford (LW)|1960|175|95|1|4|2|0|0|0|1|2|0|0|0|1|0.54|564
Joe Nieuwendyk (C)|1995|158|115|1|3|1|0|1.1|1|0|0|0|0|0|1|0.73|554
Mark Recchi (RW)|1980|135|115|0|2|0|0|0|0|0|1|0|0|1|1|0.85|540
Bobby Clarke (C)|1970|170|125|0|2|1|3|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|3|0.74|538
Ron Francis (C)|1980|172|137|0|2|1|1|0|0|0|1|0|0|0|2|0.8|525
Bobby Rousseau (RW)|1960|204|124|0|4|2|0|0|0|0|1|0|0|0|2|0.61|527
Bill Cowley (C)|1940|132|88|1|2|2|0|0|0|0|1|1.08|1|0|0|0.67|507
Nels Stewart (C)|1927|129|94|1|1|1|0|0|0|1|0|0|0|0|2|0.73|490
Punch Broadbent (RW)|1917|115|38|1|1|0|1|0|0|1|0|1|1|0|1|0.33|432
Bob Gainey (LW)|1970|211|72|1|5|1|2|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|1|0.34|429
Jack Darragh (RW)|1917|69|25|2|3|0|2|0|0|1|0|0|0|0|1|0.36|412
Babe Dye (RW)|1917|44|16|1|1|0|0|1|1|0|0|0|0|1|0|0.36|334
Name|Era|Adj. GP|Adj. PTS|CS|SC W|SC L|1D?|Vs2|G 1st|G 2nd|G top 10|Vs2|PTS 1st|PTS 2nd|PTS top 10|Adj. PTS/GP|BGE
Doug Harvey (D)|1950|267|145|0|6|5|11|0.00|0|0|1|0.00|0|0|5|0.54|1613
Denis Potvin (D)|1980|210|153|0|4|1|5|0.00|0|0|4|0.00|0|1|3|0.73|1588
Red Kelly (D/C)|1950|327|183|0|8|4|9|0.00|0|1|5|0.00|0|0|6|0.56|1438
Bobby Orr (D)|1970|98|113|2|2|1|3|0.00|0|0|2|1.00|1|1|1|1.15|1415
Nicklas Lidstrom (D)|1995|174|127|1|4|2|5|0.00|0|0|0|0.00|0|0|5|0.73|1395
Paul Coffey (D)|1980|199|175|0|4|3|0|0.00|0|0|2|0.00|0|1|2|0.88|1354
Larry Robinson (D)|1970|260|142|1|6|1|4|0.00|0|0|1|1.00|1|0|2|0.55|1330
Al MacInnis (D)|1980|179|150|1|1|1|2|0.00|0|0|0|1.24|1|0|2|0.84|1217
Ray Bourque (D)|1980|217|167|0|1|2|2|0.00|0|0|1|0.00|0|0|3|0.77|1172
J.C. Tremblay (D)|1960|181|102|0|5|1|6|0.00|0|0|0|0.00|0|1|2|0.56|1100
Pierre Pilote (D)|1960|162|111|1|1|2|3|0.00|0|0|1|1.00|1|0|1|0.69|1004
Dit Clapper (D/RW)|1927|179|66|0|3|3|2|1.33|1|0|2|0.00|0|0|3|0.37|989
Larry Murphy (D)|1980|218|141|0|4|0|0|0.00|0|0|0|0.00|0|0|2|0.65|937
Tim Horton (D)|1960|229|86|0|4|2|6|0.00|0|0|1|0.00|0|1|1|0.38|926
Sergei Zubov (D)|1995|147|114|0|2|1|3|0.00|0|0|0|0.00|0|0|2|0.78|910
Brian Leetch (D)|1995|95|94|1|1|0|1|0.00|0|0|1|1.10|1|0|0|0.99|908
George Boucher (D)|1917|128|25|0|4|0|4|1.50|1|0|1|0.00|0|1|2|0.20|874
Brad Park (D)|1970|202|135|0|0|3|3|0.00|0|1|0|0.00|0|0|1|0.67|855
Guy Lapointe (D)|1970|160|79|0|6|0|2|0.00|0|0|2|0.00|0|0|1|0.49|835
Babe Pratt (D)|1940|133|52|0|2|1|3|0.00|0|0|2|0.00|0|0|3|0.39|828
Duncan Keith (D)|2005|122|89|1|3|0|3|0.00|0|0|0|0.00|0|0|1|0.73|801
Chris Chelios (D)|1980|231|123|0|2|2|0|0.00|0|0|0|0.00|0|0|2|0.53|789
Serge Savard (D)|1970|170|77|1|7|0|0|0.00|0|0|1|0.00|0|0|1|0.45|787
Eddie Shore (D)|1927|125|58|0|2|2|3|0.00|0|0|2|0.00|0|0|2|0.46|768
Butch Bouchard (D)|1940|224|55|0|4|5|2|0.00|0|0|2|0.00|0|0|2|0.25|729
Scott Stevens (D)|1995|235|113|1|3|1|4|0.00|0|0|0|0.00|0|0|0|0.48|723
Earl Seibert (D)|1927|142|41|0|2|3|2|0.00|0|1|1|0.00|0|0|1|0.29|555
Hap Day (D)|1927|33|10|0|1|3|0|0.00|0|0|2|0.00|0|0|1|0.30|371
Lionel Conacher (D)|1927|84|10|1|2|0|3|0.00|0|0|1|0.00|0|0|0|0.12|311
Name|Era|Adj. GP|Adj. W|CS|SC W|SC L|Captaincy|# Rnds|Vs2|GAA 1st|GAA 2nd|GAA top 10|Adj. W/GP|BGE
Patrick Roy (G)|1980|248|152|3|4|1|0|4.00|3.34|3|1|11|0.61|2192
Jacques Plante (G)|1950|209|134|1|6|4|0|2.00|9.07|6|4|2|0.64|1627
Martin Brodeur (G)|1995|205|113|0|3|2|0|4.00|3.42|3|3|5|0.55|1577
Billy Smith (G)|1980|147|97|1|4|1|0|3.50|2.34|2|2|6|0.66|1448
Turk Broda (G)|1940|205|121|1|5|3|0|2.00|5.60|4|5|2|0.59|1409
Terry Sawchuk (G)|1950|206|107|2|4|3|0|2.00|5.57|3|3|5|0.52|1403
Ken Dryden (G)|1970|150|107|1|6|0|0|3.00|4.01|3|0|5|0.71|1378
Glenn Hall (G)|1950|209|90|1|1|6|0|2.00|1.15|1|1|9|0.43|1033
Johnny Bower (G)|1960|145|70|1|4|2|0|2.00|4.08|3|1|2|0.48|896
Bernie Parent (G)|1970|95|51|2|2|1|0|3.00|3.85|3|0|2|0.54|881
Frank Brimsek (G)|1940|136|64|0|2|2|0|2.00|2.34|2|1|6|0.47|865
George Hainsworth (G)|1927|126|71|1|2|2|0|2.00|2.23|1|2|2|0.56|818
Tiny Thompson (G)|1927|102|56|1|1|1|0|2.00|2.55|2|1|3|0.55|750
Jonathan Quick (G)|2005|81|46|1|2|0|0|4.00|1.30|1|1|1|0.57|706
Clint Benedict (G)|1917|138|82|0|4|1|0|1.00|1.73|1|1|0|0.59|642
Alex Connell (G)|1927|50|35|1|2|0|0|2.00|3.90|2|0|0|0.70|636
Rogie Vachon (G)|1960|69|33|0|3|1|0|2.00|2.12|2|0|2|0.48|544
Charles Gardiner (G)|1927|49|35|0|1|1|1|2.00|2.93|2|0|0|0.71|507
Lorne Chabot (G)|1927|92|39|0|2|1|0|2.00|1.64|1|2|0|0.42|501
Georges Vezina (G)|1917|68|47|0|1|2|0|1.00|1.44|1|0|0|0.69|430
Chuck Rayner (G)|1940|36|18|1|0|1|0|2.00|0.00|0|0|2|0.50|351
Notice the problem with this list: it had no means of measuring defense aside from the odd Conn Smythe, real or
retro. (I eventually sought to rectify this by applying
Iain Fyffe's point allocation system to the playoffs (
here). Although the work remains extremely incomplete, it did give me some insight into the contributions of defensive forwards.)
But as aforementioned, with almost no time to go and knowing absolutely nothing about hockey history, the list had to be sent off.
Round 1
So, the main thing I had to sort out was consistent strong performances (Harvey, Messier to a lesser extent) versus extreme peaks and fewer strong performances (Orr, Lemieux), or something in between (Potvin).
As I've mentioned here and there, though, I don't think you can really go wrong with the top six (Gretzky, Roy, Richard, Beliveau, Howe, Harvey) in any order. Extreme peaks coupled with longevity define the first five, and Doug Harvey was Doug Harvey.
Round 2
Messier was awesome, but I'm not sure he's the 7th best playoff performer all-time. He's basically all longevity with strong showings, but there's no extreme peak. Orr, Lemieux, Lafleur, Sakic, and Kennedy all had the extreme peaks but less longevity... and I guess I just threw Messier into the middle for whatever reason at the time.
In retrospect, especially with the NHL's release of +/- data starting from 1960 between votes 4 and 5, I probably should have waited on Potvin. (The reason starts with "Lar" and ends with "inson".) Harvey's 1960 saw him with +13 in 8 games, so it's a confirmation of what we knew.
(Yes, I know that +/- isn't everything, but when there's a huge gap between "Lar-" "-inson" and the rest of the field...)
Round 3
I should have put Larry Robinson at the top of my ballot.
Round 4
I should have put Larry Robinson at the top of my ballot.
So, Bernie Geoffrion versus Henri Richard? Believe it or not, rough analogues existed for whom I did point allocations: Fred Stanfield and Derek Sanderson of the Boston Bruins. Per 1000 "flattened" minutes, defensive forward Sanderson was actually more valuable than higher-scoring Stanfield; however, in terms of contribution toward playoff "standing points", Stanfield contributed more than Sanderson. In the end, I chose Geoffrion over Richard because if I'm trusting coaching decisions (i.e. ice time) to determine defensive prowess, I should probably trust the coach to do the same for offensive prowess. Richard was the better player, but Geoffrion made more impact with better opportunities. Of course, I have no issue with Henri Richard being ranked higher than Geoffrion, but that was my thinking at the time. If I were given a second chance in a revisit maybe a decade from now, I'd rank Richard ahead of Geoffrion.
Round 5
Guess who finally made the top of my list?
Yes, I'm still a little irritated that the NHL released important data halfway through this project... but better late than never, I suppose. Much more than Crosby finishing strongly, the NHL releasing +/- data earlier would have had an impact on this list.
Round 6
Why did I put Fedorov ahead of Gilmour? Their overall performances over the same time-span were
similar. Gilmour had better peaks. Therefore... brain fart? (Admittedly, real life problems arose around this time, so I think I was a lot less vigorous than I was for previous rounds.)
As for Sidney Crosby, I will admit that I would have had him on my ballot had the playoffs been finished, with my assumption that Malkin would have been the likely Smythe-winner before the Finals began. Going from two significant runs to three does matter.
As for Frank McGee, he was robbed, I tell ya! Robbed!
But in all seriousness, he was totally robbed.
Round 7
Do I have proof that he was robbed?
In terms of playoff goal-scoring, he was basically Bobby Hull before Bobby Hull existed.
Round 8
Also, why is it that every major playoff performer in the pre-O6 era named Frank? McGee, Foyston, Nighbor, and Boucher.
... Also, it turns out that 40 names isn't nearly as much as I thought it was before I started.
Final Thoughts
Firstly, I want to thank
quoipourquoi for letting me join in the HoH rankings despite deciding at the very last possible moment.
Secondly, I want to thank
Canadiens1958 for a lot of insightful discussion about ice time estimates and player deployment while I was working on the point allocation system, and for trying to sort out the mess that was the 1961 postseason plus-minuses with
seventieslord and myself.
Finally, thanks to everyone else who commented. I started this project knowing nothing about post-season hockey (well, very little in any case). I think I know a bit more now, and as they say, "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing." So I guess I'm a little more dangerous now? Yay?
