Player Discussion Peter Cehlarik - II

[LSCII]

I actually agree with you on Senyshyn. How they’ve handled him is bizarre. Can’t they teach him defense in the top 6? Or maybe there is something valuable to learn on the 3rd line, but I would think he’s either learned it by now or he never will. I’d rather see if he can put up offensive numbers in a professional league.

I think the way they’ve handled Senyshyn is different than any other prospect, which is why I can’t figure it out.

So this is an interesting take to me. It's even more egregious when you factor in that he was considered a huge reach at that spot. To me, if you're going off the board and making a big reach like this, shouldn't you do literally everything you can to make sure the guy pans out? Instead it seems like they've gone the opposite way on him for some reason.

 

[Alberta_OReilly_Fan]

zachery seyshyn will turn 22 at the end of this month

when Anthony mantha turned 22 it was sept 16 in 2016. he had 10 games nhl experience... had never scored more than 21 goals in a season in ahl.

im pretty sure its ok to write off 22 year old kids that havent torn up the ahl yet or gotten a promotion fulltime to the nhl

 

[Mainehockey33]

So this is an interesting take to me. It's even more egregious when you factor in that he was considered a huge reach at that spot. To me, if you're going off the board and making a big reach like this, shouldn't you do literally everything you can to make sure the guy pans out? Instead it seems like they've gone the opposite way on him for some reason.

You have Donato and Bjork who were handed spots in Boston right out of college, and then you have Heinen and Debrusk who played in the AHL first but I think both guys played in the top 6. I remember Heinen playing with Szwarz who’s a good top 6 center in the AHL and I don’t remember who Debrusk played with but I’m pretty sure he was in the top 6 too.

I hear people saying there’s a plan for Senyshyn but never saying what the plan is. Maybe I’m too impatient. At least put the guy on the power play.

 

[jgatie]

No, not at all. I never said they were manufactured by the team. I said they were used by the team to justify making unpopular moves and to help them win the spin game. Big difference. And they were absolutely used by the team to do that, as a lot of teams do.

You and I remember your statements quite differently, Lonnie. I'll not spend all day perusing the thousands of posts you made on Kessel/Seguin, but here is just a taste:

What diva behavior are you talking about? The only time I heard a squeak about either Kessel or Seguin being a problem is after they were traded, which comes off as spin.

Basically. To net it out, the Bruins trade a supposed face of the franchise type player, and a day later all these stories of him partying start to come out. Why? Pretty obvious to me, but hey, what do I know? Similar to the way they flipped a budding star in Kessel for futures, and a day or two later you start hearing all these stories about him being a lazy malcontent.

Either way, it's just spin. It makes no difference. All you can judge these guys on is the performance on the ice. Seguin sucked in the playoffs. He isn't what they wanted (IE a scoring winger vs a play making center), and he was going to be miscast because of the team's depth at center. That's all I need to know from the team as to why they wanted to move on from him. Not whether or not the guy likes to knock back beers or chase women when he's not playing.

 

[RussellmaniaKW]

zachery seyshyn will turn 22 at the end of this month

when Anthony mantha turned 22 it was sept 16 in 2016. he had 10 games nhl experience... had never scored more than 21 goals in a season in ahl.

im pretty sure its ok to write off 22 year old kids that havent torn up the ahl yet or gotten a promotion fulltime to the nhl

who's writing him off?

You can disagree with how the Bruins brass has handled him while believing he still has a chance to pan out.

 

[RussellmaniaKW]

You have Donato and Bjork who were handed spots in Boston right out of college, and then you have Heinen and Debrusk who played in the AHL first but I think both guys played in the top 6. I remember Heinen playing with Szwarz who’s a good top 6 center in the AHL and I don’t remember who Debrusk played with but I’m pretty sure he was in the top 6 too.

I hear people saying there’s a plan for Senyshyn but never saying what the plan is. Maybe I’m too impatient. At least put the guy on the power play.

I've discussed this a bit with @BruinsNetwork here & on Twitter...he is a big proponent of "they have a plan" when it comes to Senyshyn and that's fine, but if the plan is to teach him to play 2-way hockey in the bottom 6 then I don't see why that should take 2 full seasons in the AHL. Like it made perfect sense for me to have him play bottom 6 minutes in year 1, but I fully expected him to be a top PP guy & top 6 regular for Providence this year & it just hasn't shaken out that way. I honestly don't watch Providence so I can't say if it's because he just hasn't been good enough or if it's just roster mismanagement.

The impression I get from looking at P-Bruins lineups every night is that with the number of veteran AHL lifers that play in their top 6 I sometimes feel like Leach & co are more focused on trying to win AHL games than they are on trying to develop NHL players. But again, I don't watch them so that's just speculation on my part & may be totally unfair.

 

[GloryDaze4877]

In camp, they had 3 guys fighting for one center spot and none of them won it. They had another 3 going for two spots on the wing, Donato, Bjork, and Cehlarik. Heinen and DeBrusk were already being counted on for offense and weren't playing for a roster spot. Nobody from this hyped up prospect pool took a spot this year.

If the system is preventing them from utilizing the skilled players they have, the system is holding them back.

That system that is “holding them back” helped the team amass 112 points last year (4th), 267 goals GF (6th) and 211 GA (4th), which was far better than was expected.

This year they have 93 points (3rd), 209 GF (15th) and 177 GA (3rd). This despite a number of injuries to key players over the course of the year.

Seems to me that the system is doing ok, even if some former and current players don’t necessarily flourish in it?

 

[LSCII]

You and I remember your statements quite differently, Lonnie. I'll not spend all day perusing the thousands of posts you made on Kessel/Seguin, but here is just a taste:

Yeah and despite the quotes that you searched for, I still didn't say they created those stories. Just that they came out AFTER the fact. As in, they were well aware of Kessel's distaste for the weight room before he was moved, but it wasn't an issue or vocalized by the team until after they moved him. Same with Seguin. It's not like they weren't aware of his interest in chasing skirts and partying during his stint here. No words said by the team before about it though, but after he was moved, they had stories about his drinking everywhere. The closest they came to suggesting Seguin was hitting the booze hard was a story about how he got suspended in the Peg for oversleeping and missing a team breakfast, and even then it was passed off as a time zone issue.

 

[GloryDaze4877]

I agree, they never should have drafted him.

If you are going to play a defense first, last and always style why try to jam a round peg in a square hole? Why take the Koko's, Spooner's, etc if you know they don't play the style you want? Is it because they think they can turn a Spooner into a 200 foot player because he wants to play in the NHL? Maybe you will get some younger players to change their style to play in the NHL but a lot (Spooner seeming to be a good example) expect the team to change to him and that is not going to happen unless you are a generational talent.

The style has gotten softer here as it has in the league but if you continue to want to play a defense first, grind it out style, even adding some speed and skill to the line up, draft accordingly. Don't draft a one way player who has no interest in playing a 200 foot game and then expect him to change, maybe they scout well but it may be the interview process where they are missing.

They could never make Hamilton care, why not make another pick or trade down or out of that draft if you have a good idea, regardless of talent, that he is not going to be the type of player to fit your system. The Devils did this better than anybody, picking players to fit the system and won multiple cups doing so, regardless of how I felt about their style.

Exactly. It's insane to draft a player that doesn't fit what you want and then expect them to fit what you want.

I don’t think the B’s do play a “Defense first, last, and always” style under Cassidy. They were 6th in the NHL in GF last season (15th this year).

I think they play a “we want to use good defense to create turnovers, transition and offensive chances” style. In order to do that, you need good two way players, who pay as much attention to their D as they do to their O.

The players that have struggled here, have appeared unwilling or unable to do so.

 

[Alberta_OReilly_Fan]

who's writing him off?

You can disagree with how the Bruins brass has handled him while believing he still has a chance to pan out.

seems ive seen what seems like a few dozen people write him off here... but maybe they are just so obnoxious about it they seem like a few dozen?

I didnt say you wrote him off but you cant possibly spend time here on our forum and come to me with some stance that there arent a whole flock of posters here writing the kid off?

 

[dafoomie]

That system that is “holding them back” helped the team amass 112 points last year (4th), 267 goals GF (6th) and 211 GA (4th), which was far better than was expected.

This year they have 93 points (3rd), 209 GF (15th) and 177 GA (3rd). This despite a number of injuries to key players over the course of the year.

Seems to me that the system is doing ok, even if some former and current players don’t necessarily flourish in it?

They have a great record because they have great players, their flaws have mostly been about their inability to put enough complimentary pieces around them. Many more factors go into that than what we're discussing here, but they have clear and obvious needs and a now static pool of players from which they can fill them. When they take one of those guys, who analytics and eye test both agree drives possession, and cast him aside for clearly inferior players who can not contribute above a 4th line role, because he's not their "type", that's a management problem and a coaching problem. They will run out of players to churn through long before they find enough who have the exact set of characteristics they prefer.

 

[Blowfish]

The fact that Donato is gone is the result of the Wild wanting him in exchange for something the Bruins were desperate to acquire.
If the Wild felt Cehlarik was the better player, I'm sure they could have had him instead.

Who is to say Don wanted to trade Cehlarik?

 

[LSCII]

I don’t think the B’s do play a “Defense first, last, and always” style under Cassidy. They were 6th in the NHL in GF last season (15th this year).

I think they play a “we want to use good defense to create turnovers, transition and offensive chances” style. In order to do that, you need good two way players, who pay as much attention to their D as they do to their O.

The players that have struggled here, have appeared unwilling or unable to do so.

You're not wrong in regards to the style they play. I will say that the guys that typically "get it" are defensive players or more complete two way guys and I wonder if they truly get it or are just being giving a greater chance to get it since they offer less risk than offensively minded guys.

To me, it seems the leash is typically far shorter for offense first guys than it is for a complete offensive zero like Nordstrom. Why is it okay for a player to be one dimensional only if that dimension is defense? Surely there can be some semblance of balance, but there isn't.

 

[Number8]

You're not wrong in regards to the style they play. I will say that the guys that typically "get it" are defensive players or more complete two way guys and I wonder if they truly get it or are just being giving a greater chance to get it since they offer less risk than offensively minded guys.

To me, it seems the leash is typically far shorter for offense first guys than it is for a complete offensive zero like Nordstrom. Why is it okay for a player to be one dimensional only if that dimension is defense? Surely there can be some semblance of balance, but there isn't.

I think for me the issue is the Bruins have not in many years been a run and gun offense. Defensive responsibility has for a long time been the mantra. I think that means the leash is indeed shorter for primarily offense first guys.

I’m not smart enough to know whether a “200 foot game” is the be all strategy for an NHL team. I do know that is Boston’s approach and I wouldn’t expect it to change anytime soon.

 

[Blowfish]

That system that is “holding them back” helped the team amass 112 points last year (4th), 267 goals GF (6th) and 211 GA (4th), which was far better than was expected.

This year they have 93 points (3rd), 209 GF (15th) and 177 GA (3rd). This despite a number of injuries to key players over the course of the year.

Seems to me that the system is doing ok, even if some former and current players don’t necessarily flourish in it?

Before Pasta/Debrusk went down, I believe you were extremely and consistently frustrated seeing Heinen paired with Backes on the black hole 3rd line...now Heinen is off that 3rd line and you can see the difference in Heinen's game paired with Bergeron/March. The confidence is back!

It's great to see because some of us knew the skillset was there however Heinen (much like Dontato / Cehlarik) was constantly on that brutal black hole line.

My only concern with the Cehlariks and Donatos was the confidence was driven out of them...much like what Heinen was experiencing before he moved up to the top line. This in my mind is on the coaching staff to get the best out of their players / help them succeed.

Yes different players...i like Heinen's game much more over a Cehlarik/Donato however before the injury to Debrusk/Cehlarik and the trades Cehlarik was very effective with Debrusk/Krejci...Cehlarik was bumped down to the 3rd line black hole and his game and confidence disappeared from there.

Hope he can regain his game in Providence...they could use his help.

And what the heck is up with the 3rd line black hole this season!!!!

 

[Dr Hook]

I think for me the issue is the Bruins have not in many years been a run and gun offense. Defensive responsibility has for a long time been the mantra. I think that means the leash is indeed shorter for primarily offense first guys.

I’m not smart enough to know whether a “200 foot game” is the be all strategy for an NHL team. I do know that is Boston’s approach and I wouldn’t expect it to change anytime soon.

If nothing else, it more or less guarantees a team that is at least modestly successful and has a chance at the playoffs every year.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Who is to say Don wanted to trade Cehlarik?

Who's to say he wanted to trade Donato?

You don't get to play both sides of a trade. You want something and everyone knows it. You have to give up something to get it. Can't be sure but I would assume Sweeney would have given up Cehlarik in a heartbeat if that's what the Wild wanted for Coyle.

 

[Blowfish]

Who's to say he wanted to trade Donato?

You don't get to play both sides of a trade. You want something and everyone knows it. You have to give up something to get it. Can't be sure but I would assume Sweeney would have given up Cehlarik in a heartbeat if that's what the Wild wanted for Coyle.

delete - whatever

 

[LSCII]

They have a great record because they have great players, their flaws have mostly been about their inability to put enough complimentary pieces around them. Many more factors go into that than what we're discussing here, but they have clear and obvious needs and a now static pool of players from which they can fill them. When they take one of those guys, who analytics and eye test both agree drives possession, and cast him aside for clearly inferior players who can not contribute above a 4th line role, because he's not their "type", that's a management problem and a coaching problem. They will run out of players to churn through long before they find enough who have the exact set of characteristics they prefer.

This is spot on. And it really shows up in the playoffs when secondary scoring is so important.

 

[RussellmaniaKW]

That system that is “holding them back” helped the team amass 112 points last year (4th), 267 goals GF (6th) and 211 GA (4th), which was far better than was expected.

This year they have 93 points (3rd), 209 GF (15th) and 177 GA (3rd). This despite a number of injuries to key players over the course of the year.

Seems to me that the system is doing ok, even if some former and current players don’t necessarily flourish in it?

let's be real here. there are a few issues with simply looking at their regular season record to measure organizational success. First of all, as we all know winning regular season games & winning playoff series are two different animals. Cassidy learned very well from Julien how to scrape out regular season wins even with roster limitations. There's nothing wrong with that at all; in fact it's an important trait for a team to have, but it doesn't necessarily translate to playoff success.

second of all, the Bruins are still largely dependent on several guys over the age of 30. Chara & Bergeron are just freaks of nature. It's highly unusual to get that level of play out of guys their age. Marchand, Rask & Krejci are also better than most guys in their age group. I'd say Krug, Pasta, McAvoy, Carlo & Debrusk round out the rest of their core. So yes they've had some success with drafting & developing, but at least half of the team's success in the immediate past has been from guys who have been on the team for years and are vastly outperforming expectations for guys in their age brackets. The only guy in that list who is statistically in his prime is Krug.

The point I'm trying to make is that yeah the Bruins have been a consistently good team over the past 2 seasons and that obviously speaks to them doing a lot of things right, but that success can only partially be attributed to the drafting & development of the current management group.

They've done a terrific job drafting & developing defensemen, but their track record drafting & developing forwards in the Sweeney years is pretty spotty at best. Debrusk is Sweeney's one big win and even in that case they arguably missed out on better players to draft him. Heinen was not a Sweeney pick but I'll give them credit for developing him, although he still hasn't found a consistent top 6 rhythm yet. Donato was arguably the best forward prospect they had not in the NHL and they traded him. Studnicka, Frederic, Steen, Lauzo & Senyshyn have interesting skillsets, but none of them are locks to be productive top 6 NHL forwards.

So yes they're doing a lot of things right in the day to day NHL grind & have the record to prove it but a LOT of that is due to unusual longevity from their veteran forwards & a very deep D corps combined with terrific coaching. Drafting & developing skill forwards in the Sweeney era absolutely leaves something to be desired, I don't know how you or anyone can dispute that.

 

[LSCII]

let's be real here. there are a few issues with simply looking at their regular season record to measure organizational success. First of all, as we all know winning regular season games & winning playoff series are two different animals. Cassidy learned very well from Julien how to scrape out regular season wins even with roster limitations. There's nothing wrong with that at all; in fact it's an important trait for a team to have, but it doesn't necessarily translate to playoff success.

second of all, the Bruins are still largely dependent on several guys over the age of 30. Chara & Bergeron are just freaks of nature. It's highly unusual to get that level of play out of guys their age. Marchand, Rask & Krejci are also better than most guys in their age group. I'd say Krug, Pasta, McAvoy, Carlo & Debrusk round out the rest of their core. So yes they've had some success with drafting & developing, but at least half of the team's success in the immediate past has been from guys who have been on the team for years and are vastly outperforming expectations for guys in their age brackets. The only guy in that list who is statistically in his prime is Krug.

The point I'm trying to make is that yeah the Bruins have been a consistently good team over the past 2 seasons and that obviously speaks to them doing a lot of things right, but that success can only partially be attributed to the drafting & development of the current management group.

They've done a terrific job drafting & developing defensemen, but their track record drafting & developing forwards in the Sweeney years is pretty spotty at best. Debrusk is Sweeney's one big win and even in that case they arguably missed out on better players to draft him. Heinen was not a Sweeney pick but I'll give them credit for developing him, although he still hasn't found a consistent top 6 rhythm yet. Donato was arguably the best forward prospect they had not in the NHL and they traded him. Studnicka, Frederic, Steen, Lauzo & Senyshyn have interesting skillsets, but none of them are locks to be productive top 6 NHL forwards.

So yes they're doing a lot of things right in the day to day NHL grind & have the record to prove it but a LOT of that is due to unusual longevity from their veteran forwards & a very deep D corps combined with terrific coaching. Drafting & developing skill forwards in the Sweeney era absolutely leaves something to be desired, I don't know how you or anyone can dispute that.

You're absolutely right that there's a lot to like with what they've done so far, but just like you also say, there are some areas of concern that can certainly be improved on.

 

[jgatie]

Yeah and despite the quotes that you searched for, I still didn't say they created those stories. Just that they came out AFTER the fact. As in, they were well aware of Kessel's distaste for the weight room before he was moved, but it wasn't an issue or vocalized by the team until after they moved him. Same with Seguin. It's not like they weren't aware of his interest in chasing skirts and partying during his stint here. No words said by the team before about it though, but after he was moved, they had stories about his drinking everywhere. The closest they came to suggesting Seguin was hitting the booze hard was a story about how he got suspended in the Peg for oversleeping and missing a team breakfast, and even then it was passed off as a time zone issue.

Nonsense. The stories did come out before the trades. Specifically, there were many people criticizing Kessel's work ethic, including a NESN commentator who absolutely lambasted him for being out of shape and not willing to do the work. And stories about Seguin came out in an article right after the Toronto series, including the guard at the door, wearing the same clothes 3 days in a row, and the confrontation by Thornton.

So even with you revising your take, you still got it all wrong. But as I said, that's Lonnie World.

 

[Fenian24]

I don’t think the B’s do play a “Defense first, last, and always” style under Cassidy. They were 6th in the NHL in GF last season (15th this year).

I think they play a “we want to use good defense to create turnovers, transition and offensive chances” style. In order to do that, you need good two way players, who pay as much attention to their D as they do to their O.

The players that have struggled here, have appeared unwilling or unable to do so.

Not condemning the system, I agree with it for the most part and believe every player should play a 200 ft game. Just dont get why you would draft players who you have a pretty good idea are not going to conform to the system ( Spooner and Koko being examples)

 

[aguineapig]

Reminds me of Luc Dufour back in the eighties same build, same style just a half step behind but good hands to make a play now and then and out of sight for rest of night

 

[GloryDaze4877]

Before Pasta/Debrusk went down, I believe you were extremely frustrated seeing Heinen paired with Backes on the black hole 3rd line...now Heinen is off that 3rd line and you can see the difference in Heinen's game paired with Bergeron/March. The confidence is back!

It's great to see because some of us knew the skillset was there however Heinen (much like Dontato / Cehlarik) was constantly on that brutal black hole line.

My only concern with the Cehlariks and Donatos was the confidence was driven out of them...much like what Heinen was experiencing before he moved up to the top line. This in my mind is on the coaching staff to get the best out of their players / help them succeed.

Yes different players...i like Heinen's game much more over a Cehlarik/Donato however before the injury to Debrusk/Cehlarik and the trades Cehlarik was very effective with Debrusk/Krejci...Cehlarik was bumped down to the 3rd line black hole and his game and confidence disappeared from there.

Hope he can regain his game in Providence...they could use his help.

And what the heck is up with the 3rd line black hole this season!!!!

I have been saying regularly of late that when the B’s are healthy, I want Cehlarik on the 3rd line with 90/43 and 13. He needs to play with skill guys to be effective, and I think that line would be strong both ways. Unfortunately, Cehlarik appears to be in the doghouse, and that spot will likely be filled by Backes (who has been better of late, but that’s not saying much).

The difference between Cehlarik and Heinen is that Heinen won’t hurt you even when he’s not scoring. As far as Donato goes, I don’t miss him at all. He was awful this year and all this stuff blaming Cassidy and the B’s is bullshit in my opinion.

I just want the B’s to get healthy before the playoffs so they can see what they have. Hopefully, Cehlarik can get his confidence back soon.