Post-Game Talk: | Pens vs Wings | loss | garbage effort

[Sidney the Kidney]

Honestly don't think the system has much if anything to do with the struggles.

It's way more the lines and roster construction. Remove Carter and Dumoulin and have a healthy Petry and this is a good team still.

But we're going to continue to square peg round hole Jeff Carter into being a shutdown center and his line is going to continue to spend 90% of its shifts getting shelled in our end.

I think the system (or at least the way he wants them to play) results in a lot of these games where they look disorganized when they don't have their A-game because his system requires them to be skating at 100% efficiency for it to be effective since it relies on "constant puck pressure".

Also, North/South hockey that involves a lot of dump and chase and retrievals (again what he wants) also requires players to be 100% going full speed at all times for it to be effective. So on nights when the legs aren't there, they're going to constantly look like they're 5 seconds behind the play.

He needs to adjust to the fact this roster -- whether it be personnel itself or the age of the personnel -- simply can't play at 100% speed every night. So expecting them to have to be buzzsaws every shift in order for his system to work as intended needs to be changed.

There's a reason this team can look like a Stanley Cup contender one night and then look like an AHL team that's hung over the next. It's not because the roster is terrible, it's that the system requires an enormous amount of skating and effort to achieve positive results. On the nights when the old legs are there, they look good. On the nights when they're not at 100%, they look like ass. It's not a coincidence.

 

[HandshakeLine]

I think the system (or at least the way he wants them to play) results in a lot of these games where they look disorganized when they don't have their A-game because his system requires them to be skating at 100% efficiency for it to be effective since it relies on "constant puck pressure".

Also, North/South hockey that involves a lot of dump and chase and retrievals (again what he wants) also requires players to be 100% going full speed at all times for it to be effective. So on nights when the legs aren't there, they're going to constantly look like they're 5 seconds behind the play.

He needs to adjust to the fact this roster -- whether it be personnel itself or the age of the personnel -- simply can't play at 100% speed every night. So expecting them to have to be buzzsaws every shift in order for his system to work as intended needs to be changed.

There's a reason this team can look like a Stanley Cup contender one night and then look like an AHL team that's hung over the next. It's not because the roster is terrible, it's that the system requires an enormous amount of skating and effort to achieve positive results. On the nights when the old legs are there, they look good. On the nights when they're not at 100%, they look like ass. It's not a coincidence.

Or, conversely, if you desperately want to play like that, put the players like Kap, DOC, or McGinn on the top lines with players like Zucker and Rackell and go whole hog on that. Promote the young players who are contributing and playing with energy and don't sit them for a period so you can watch your best bud Jeff "Plays The Game The Right Way" Carter blow the game again.

And to make it perfectly clear, I'm not saying DOC, Kap, or McGinn are necessarily top 6 players at all. But they can play the north-south game and, in some cases, look much better doing that forechecking dirty work to set stuff up than their more talented teammates.

 

[Gurglesons]

Or, conversely, if you desperately want to play like that, put the players like Kap, DOC, or McGinn on the top lines with players like Zucker and Rackell and go whole hog on that. Promote the young players who are contributing and playing with energy and don't sit them for a period so you can watch your best bud Jeff "Plays The Game The Right Way" Carter blow the game again.

And to make it perfectly clear, I'm not saying DOC, Kap, or McGinn are necessarily top 6 players at all. But they can play the north-south game and, in some cases, look much better doing that forechecking dirty work to set stuff up than their more talented teammates.

Yep.

Guentzel - Crosby - Rakell
Zucker - Malkin - Kapanen
McGinn - Blueger - Rust
Heinen - DOC - Carter ( Bench them )

POJ - Letang
Smith - Rutta
Dumo - Friedman

 

[Darren McCord]

Or, conversely, if you desperately want to play like that, put the players like Kap, DOC, or McGinn on the top lines with players like Zucker and Rackell and go whole hog on that. Promote the young players who are contributing and playing with energy and don't sit them for a period so you can watch your best bud Jeff "Plays The Game The Right Way" Carter blow the game again.

And to make it perfectly clear, I'm not saying DOC, Kap, or McGinn are necessarily top 6 players at all. But they can play the north-south game and, in some cases, look much better doing that forechecking dirty work to set stuff up than their more talented teammates.

This. The amount of drop passes by Rust, Jake and Heinen is atrocious. None of them constantly push the play. They float through the neutral zone going east and west. Geno, Sid and even Carter do it as well.

The amount of times this team gets caught at the blueline because of cute passes is infuriating.

Zucker and Rakell dump in and follow up. Same with McGinn and Kap.

Yep.

Guentzel - Crosby - Rakell
Zucker - Malkin - Kapanen
McGinn - Blueger - Rust
Heinen - DOC - Carter ( Bench them )

POJ - Letang
Smith - Rutta
Dumo - Friedman

You Mean Petts - Friedman? Should be this

POJ - Letang
Petts - Rutta
Smith - Friedman

 

[Gurglesons]

This. The amount of drop passes by Rust, Jake and Heinen is atrocious. None of them constantly push the play. They float through the neutral zone going east and west. Geno, Sid and even Carter do it as well.

The amount of times this team gets caught at the blueline because of cute passes is infuriating.

Zucker and Rakell dump in and follow up. Same with McGinn and Kap.



You Mean Petts - Friedman? Should be this

POJ - Letang
Petts - Rutta
Smith - Friedman

Yes sorry.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

You Mean Petts - Friedman? Should be this

POJ - Letang
Petts - Rutta
Smith - Friedman

I don't think I want POJ on the 1st pair, let's not kill the kid's confidence. Flip Petts and POJ and I'd be down in this fantasy world D pairings.

 

[HandshakeLine]

This. The amount of drop passes by Rust, Jake and Heinen is atrocious. None of them constantly push the play. They float through the neutral zone going east and west. Geno, Sid and even Carter do it as well.

The amount of times this team gets caught at the blueline because of cute passes is infuriating.

Zucker and Rakell dump in and follow up. Same with McGinn and Kap.

This is kind of why I'm up for trading Jake, tbh, if the return is good. He's been coasting, albeit with an uncanny ability to put up points, for a few seasons now and he's frankly just not looking good this year. Rust is even worse, but he's essentially immobile with the NMC. Heinen shouldn't be in the lineup; he should be waived and sent to WB/S.

 

[vodeni]

This. The amount of drop passes by Rust, Jake and Heinen is atrocious. None of them constantly push the play. They float through the neutral zone going east and west. Geno, Sid and even Carter do it as well.

The amount of times this team gets caught at the blueline because of cute passes is infuriating.

Zucker and Rakell dump in and follow up. Same with McGinn and Kap.



You Mean Petts - Friedman? Should be this

POJ - Letang
Petts - Rutta
Smith - Friedman

Not sure what this means float through neutral zone going east west...Are you sure about that, they don't even have a chance to do east west. Rewatch the games and let me know when was it that Rust did not just throw puck behind the dman and tried to go all the way deep without any support, because others are slow to catch up, This team completely abandoned going straight up as a group of three through NZ. Even Geno now just dump pucks meaningleslly behind to no one where they can't do anything about that.

They got killed by Ilsles and Wings making exactly what you are saying crisp passes in NZ, skating and geting open to those east west passes.

This narrative that they are overpassing is such a cliche, when in reality they can't connect two passes in a row...

 

[ZorkEnchanter]

Yep.

Guentzel - Crosby - Rakell
Zucker - Malkin - Kapanen
McGinn - Blueger - Rust
Heinen - DOC - Carter ( Bench them )

POJ - Letang
Smith - Rutta
Dumo - Friedman

I'd love to see him try anything like this but it won't happen.

He just doesn't want to play younger/new players just his vets/favorites.... I'll be amazed if he tries different players.

 

[vodeni]

This is kind of why I'm up for trading Jake, tbh, if the return is good. He's been coasting, albeit with an uncanny ability to put up points, for a few seasons now and he's frankly just not looking good this year. Rust is even worse, but he's essentially immobile with the NMC. Heinen shouldn't be in the lineup; he should be waived and sent to WB/S.

Rust has been solid on L2, he is pushing the play and doing just fine, with two good dman behind that line is fine.

 

[ZorkEnchanter]

Not sure what this means float through neutral zone going east west...Are you sure about that, they don't even have a chance to do east west. Rewatch the games and let me know when was it that Rust did not just throw puck behind the dman and tried to go all the way deep without any support, because others are slow to catch up, This team completely abandoned going straight up as a group of three through NZ. Even Geno now just dump pucks meaningleslly behind to no one where they can't do anything about that.

They got killed by Ilsles and Wings making exactly what you are saying crisp passes in NZ, skating and geting open to those east west passes.

This narrative that they are overpassing is such a cliche, when in reality they can't connect two passes in a row...

Watching them RUSH... RUSH ... RUSH...

with no cohesion, structure, and spacing then just passing it badly ... over and over...

But they were aggressive!

 

[HandshakeLine]

Rust has been solid on L2, he is pushing the play and doing just fine, with two good dman behind that line is fine.

Yeah, for like 5 games and I hope it continues. He looked terrible though to start the year until he got bumped down to L3 for a hot minute and taken off the power play (that he sucks on). My point is: f***ing boot Rust into the sun because Sullivan can't control himself.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

This is kind of why I'm up for trading Jake, tbh, if the return is good. He's been coasting, albeit with an uncanny ability to put up points, for a few seasons now and he's frankly just not looking good this year. Rust is even worse, but he's essentially immobile with the NMC. Heinen shouldn't be in the lineup; he should be waived and sent to WB/S.

I think the thing with Jake is he's kind of a hot and cold complimentary winger. I think his cold games just underline the fact he's not one of those wingers who can be the top guy on a line, but more so a great option on a line with a superior player (ie. when Crosby or Malkin are on their game).

I think unless he's dealt for someone who actually *is* a number one player on a line versus a high-end complimentary piece, we'd see the same issues with the new guy. Inconsistent results largely dependent on how their center is performing over those stretch of games.

 

[HandshakeLine]

I think the thing with Jake is he's kind of a hot and cold complimentary winger. I think his cold games just underline the fact he's not one of those wingers who can be the top guy on a line, but more so a great option on a line with a superior player (ie. when Crosby or Malkin are on their game).

I think unless he's dealt for someone who actually *is* a number one player on a line versus a high-end complimentary piece, we'd see the same issues with the new guy. Inconsistent results largely dependent on how their center is performing over those stretch of games.

I dunno, I feel like a lot of the arguments for keeping Jake were the same arguments for keeping Neal. Obviously, Jake's less of a liability and better at putting up points even when playing poorly. But that also means that he's actually worth something, unlike most of the rest of our tradable players. So you could in theory pick up someone who's slightly less productive on paper but will be a better compliment to the top 6 and might click just as well with Sid.

Again, he's not like a Dumo or Carter-esque liabilty or anything, just that he's not looking as untouchable as he did years ago, and this club has a bad tendency to hang on to players past their peak. I'd kind of like for us to sell high for once.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I dunno, I feel like a lot of the arguments for keeping Jake were the same arguments for keeping Neal. Obviously, Jake's less of a liability and better at putting up points even when playing poorly. But that also means that he's actually worth something, unlike most of the rest of our tradable players. So you could in theory pick up someone who's slightly less productive on paper but will be a better compliment to the top 6 and might click just as well with Sid.

Again, he's not like a Dumo or Carter-esque liabilty or anything, just that he's not looking as untouchable as he did years ago, and this club has a bad tendency to hang on to players past their peak. I'd kind of like for us to sell high for once.

For me, Jake's value really shines in the playoffs. He had that lull after his shoulder injury, but this past playoffs he was back to the Jake that just produces at a ridiculous rate.

I don't think he's a perfect player by any means. But I just think that of our current wingers, there's about 95% of them I'd rather move than him. I know he'd bring back the most value, but IMO it'll have very little impact if we still have to rely on our other 11 wingers (10 excluding Rakell) to not suck. I'd rather keep the one or two wingers we *can* rely on somewhat like Jake and Rakell, and try and re-arrange the other 10 instead.

 

[Gurglesons]

NHL Line Combinations - Boston Bruins

Check out the latest line combinations for the Boston Bruins and stay up-to-date on all NHL team lineups at Daily Faceoff. Get insights into starting goalies, injuries, and more to gain an edge in your fantasy hockey league.

www.dailyfaceoff.com

weird how some teams can break up elite players and make it work, but we have to force Jake and Crosby every game.

guess that's the luxury when you have players like Jake Debrusk and Nick Foligno lol.

 

[HandshakeLine]

For me, Jake's value really shines in the playoffs. He had that lull after his shoulder injury, but this past playoffs he was back to the Jake that just produces at a ridiculous rate.

I don't think he's a perfect player by any means. But I just think that of our current wingers, there's about 95% of them I'd rather move than him. I know he'd bring back the most value, but IMO it'll have very little impact if we still have to rely on our other 11 wingers (10 excluding Rakell) to not suck. I'd rather keep the one or two wingers we *can* rely on somewhat like Jake and Rakell, and try and re-arrange the other 10 instead.

Like I said, honestly, I'd have traded Rust. I'd still trade Rust. But that's pretty much not possible unless he wants out. He's the weakest link in the top 6 right now, but he's on a reasonable contract and has legit value.

NHL Line Combinations - Boston Bruins

Check out the latest line combinations for the Boston Bruins and stay up-to-date on all NHL team lineups at Daily Faceoff. Get insights into starting goalies, injuries, and more to gain an edge in your fantasy hockey league.

www.dailyfaceoff.com

weird how some teams can break up elite players and make it work, but we have to force Jake and Crosby every game.

guess that's the luxury when you have players like Jake Debrusk and Nick Foligno lol.

Changing lines is messing with God's Plan, heathen.

 

[Sidgeni Malkby]

It’s pretty simple.

Once you have a 4 goal lead, you either keep the pressure on, or you switch to a defensive 1-2-2 system or something.

We did neither and after the 1st period, just played like we already won the game.

OT…
What we are doing should work, but if it isn’t, time to switch it up. Put some speed guys out there that can counter.

Guys like Malkin/Guentzel/Peterson/carter shouldn’t be out there too much. Well Malkin maybe should, but he is struggling in OT right now.

 

[Gurglesons]

It’s pretty simple.

Once you have a 4 goal lead, you

Stop playing Brian Dumoulin and Jeff Carter.

 

[Pancakes]

I think the system (or at least the way he wants them to play) results in a lot of these games where they look disorganized when they don't have their A-game because his system requires them to be skating at 100% efficiency for it to be effective since it relies on "constant puck pressure".

Also, North/South hockey that involves a lot of dump and chase and retrievals (again what he wants) also requires players to be 100% going full speed at all times for it to be effective. So on nights when the legs aren't there, they're going to constantly look like they're 5 seconds behind the play.

He needs to adjust to the fact this roster -- whether it be personnel itself or the age of the personnel -- simply can't play at 100% speed every night. So expecting them to have to be buzzsaws every shift in order for his system to work as intended needs to be changed.

There's a reason this team can look like a Stanley Cup contender one night and then look like an AHL team that's hung over the next. It's not because the roster is terrible, it's that the system requires an enormous amount of skating and effort to achieve positive results. On the nights when the old legs are there, they look good. On the nights when they're not at 100%, they look like ass. It's not a coincidence.

I just don't really agree with this. We're old, but we skate just fine. The reason we look like a buzz saw one night and shit the next is our bottom six is horrible. When our top six has an off night, we suck.

Like I said, I don't think it's a systems thing. I think it's a roster thing. Half of our lineup can't pick up the other half when they have a bad game.

It's also why even our wins feel like a struggle because even in those games usually only half of our lineup is going

 

[vodeni]

Listening Bourque and Yohe on radio now, basically Sully is in fault because he is soft on Geno and Tanger, really just honing on Malkin, no wonder this whole thing around pens is rotten and need to be blown into pieces

 

[Pancakes]

Listening Bourque and Yohe on radio now, basically Sully is in fault because he is soft on Geno and Tanger, really just honing on Malkin, no wonder this whole thing around pens is rotten and need to be blown into pieces

Yohe and Bourque love to rag on Malkin for some reason. Always have.

Meanwhile if Sid has a game where he's floating around petulantly and playing like an asshole you'll never hear a peep from them

 

[Gurglesons]

Yohe and Bourque love to rag on Malkin for some reason. Always have.

Meanwhile if Sid has a game where he's floating around petulantly and playing like an asshole you'll never hear a peep from them

Yeah Sid and Jake got absolutely rocked last night.

 

[BHD]

A 96-year(!) record for the Wings. If any team would allow it to happen, it's these guys.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I just don't really agree with this. We're old, but we skate just fine. The reason we look like a buzz saw one night and shit the next is our bottom six is horrible. When our top six has an off night, we suck.

Like I said, I don't think it's a systems thing. I think it's a roster thing. Half of our lineup can't pick up the other half when they have a bad game.

It's also why even our wins feel like a struggle because even in those games usually only half of our lineup is going

We'll have to agree to disagree because I can't fathom how someone can just say the issues we have in losses is roster related when those issues don't seem to appear in most wins. The difference between the two is in wins the team seems to have the energy/jump to play that high pressure system, but in losses it doesn't have the legs, so the system fails without 100% buy-in.

But anyways, guess we'll be arguing about this for the next decade because Sullivan's going nowhere.