GDT: Pens vs Blue Jackets

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*shrug*

You guys can be as cavalier as you want to about this. And in some ways, I very much agree with you. But I really don't think you guys are arguing from a place of complete honesty. Malkin and Neal were a dynamic pair. Malkin hasn't looked anything close to that since Neal left.

I don't think it's a coincidence.

He isn't the kind of player than can elevate bad fits and bullcrap, anymore. He and the team need to figure out how to get him going and STAY going or they simply aren't going anywhere. And I think that trade (while good for the team as a whole, at the time) was another step backward in that regard.

But whatever. What's done is done. At least the team will have ONE good line that's fun to watch this season. Better than none.

Dynamic pair in the regular season. A short, but critically important caveat. Nobody is short-changing Neal and Geno's chemistry and success during the regular season. Again, it was fantastic to watch, and it was deadly. But when push came to shove and Geno was shut down in the playoffs, what did Neal do to alleviate the situation, make space for Geno, or create on his own? Nothing. And that's just with respect to offense. Neal didn't forecheck, he didn't back-check, he didn't battle along the boards. He just floated around the ice, watching Geno get 2 or 3 manned, and waited lazily for the puck to find it's way to his stick. That doesn't work in the playoffs, not against good teams.

And no, Geno hasn't looked good since Neal left. Likely because he's had garbage on his wings. For a month or so, Geno made Blake "I'm a career bottom sixer" Comeau look like a 30 goal scorer. Geno won a Conn Smythe--scoring at a legendary pace throughout the playoffs along the way--with the likes of Fedotenko and Talbot on his wings. Malkin made Neal successful, far, far more than the opposite.

 

[Ziggyjoe21]

You're using stats from the 11-12 and 12-13 playoffs. Aka, stats that are 3 and 4 years old. People hate on Dupuis being a top-6 option now (which not many people even do that, DCK has been pretty widely supported) because it's 2015, not 2012.

That is the last time Dupuis has played in a playoff game.

 

[Empoleon8771]

That is the last time Dupuis has played in a playoff game.

But don't you see why it's flawed to point to those stats as support now? They're 3 and 4 years old and Dupuis has missed a massive amount of time in the last 2 years.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

You know I love you dude, so this isn't said maliciously, but I think you're wrong. Remember back through December this past season, people were saying Malkin was the mvp and best player in the world.

Then Comeau gets hurt and then Malkin gets hurt and finishes the year on one leg. Geno will be fine without Neal. I'm surprised he's not playing with Kessel, but he'll be fine with Hornqvist. He'd be better if they'd go with Plotnikov and Perron, imo, but he'll be good either way.

I sincerely, sincerely hope you are right. Believe me... I really do.

I've seen much more bad/frustrating from Malkin than good the last few seasons, though. Age and injury catches up. I realize he had a nice stretch last season... but he followed that up with his usual injury rigmarole and a nightmare close to the year. I surely hope a full year with Hornqvist helps him but, man... frankly I hate what I've seen between those two. Ice cold.

And you can verbally beat on me as much as you want. I can take it!

Good to see ya around.

 

[Ziggyjoe21]

You can bring any stats you like into the argument. The only stats that matter are what they have done as Penguins. So fire away and waste your time Zig.

A valid, fair comparison can't be made for a few more seasons. However, right now we know that Hornqvist has as many playoff goals as Neal did in his last 17 games. Hornqvist has a dozen games to surpass his production and something tells me he will pull off that impossible trick.

Hornqvist also never stops working, crashes the net, forechecks his ass off, creates turnovers and ultimately chaos for the opposition when he is on the ice.

Tell me again what Neal did when he wasn't scoring?

Neal isn't a 2 way winger. Not every one is. His claim to fame is that he puts the puck into the net and was a great winger for Geno. As a top 6 winger, putting up points is very important.

If the offensive production between the 2 players was close then you'd have a valid argument in my eyes. But it isn't close for either the reg season or even the playoffs where Neal underachieves.

 

[catnip]

So in 5 games? Such a large sample size

Of course it's a joke sample size but it's the exact same sample size others are using to proclaim how much better off Malkin's now that the leech is gone.

Maybe it's just me but he didn't seem noticeably better off last year when he had one of the least productive years of his career playing with talent that included the likes of Comeau, Spaling, Dupuis etc.

To my untrained eye, Neal seemed better than those guys but obviously others are free to disagree.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

How many playoff games did Malkin and Neal even play together?

I'm not being contentious... I'm sincerely asking.

 

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I think a big reason Geno's hurt so frequently is because he feels the need to do all of the grunt work, or at least way too much of it, and has for years. When you go from wingers like Malone, Fedotenko, Talbot, etc. to floaters like Neal and Jokinen, you're gonna take a lot more abuse. You're going to be going to areas a guy like Geno shouldn't need to go to. You're going to be putting yourself into bad positions because you're trying to do too much.

Perron and Hornqvist, or Plotnikov and Kessel completely solves that issue. I think with those wingers staying as pairs in the top-6, it's a toss up between Sid and Geno as to who wins the Art Ross--but both will likely run away with that competition.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

Neal isn't a 2 way winger. Not every one is. His claim to fame is that he puts the puck into the net and was a great winger for Geno. As a top 6 winger, putting up points is very important.

If the offensive production between the 2 players was close then you'd have a valid argument in my eyes. But it isn't close for either the reg season or even the playoffs where Neal underachieves.

Top-6 wingers have to score goals. Neal has a nearly unrivaled shot, and the ability to score. That was his sole purpose. He failed to do so when it mattered the most, and the team needed that aspect from him the most. On top of that, he brought nothing else to the table. At all. Period.

Argument over.

 

[Ziggyjoe21]

Top-6 wingers have to score goals. Neal has a nearly unrivaled shot, and the ability to score. That was his sole purpose. He failed to do so when it mattered the most, and the team needed that aspect from him the most. On top of that, he brought nothing else to the table. At all. Period.

Argument over.

That's not what I was arguing (initially). My argument is that JR could/should have received more in return for Neal.

Horns and Colin Wilson would be fair perhaps. At least then Geno wouldn't have been stuck with Comeau.

 

[Waffle Fries]

Dupuis is a similar role player, correct? Hard working, complimentary player to Sid, the very definition of hard worker and overachiever. Everyone here hates him as a top 6 winger, yet he has 17 points in his last 21 playoff games. He is a hard worker (like Hornqvist) and he contributes offensively in the playoffs (unlike Hornqvist).

I wouldn't say Hornqvist useless in the playoffs, I would say he's underwhelming. Top 6 forwards need produce.

Talk about a double standard.

Hornqvist was fantastic for us in the playoffs. I really can't conceive how anyone could look at how he played and say that he was underwhelming.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

I think Malkin is just kind of fragile, tbh. The problem is that he didn't get to the playoffs healthy last season which he'd been managing, and he did his usual regular season routine. Crosby was the one who couldn't get healthy for the playoffs for years... Then he had a healthy playoffs and mumps in the regular season but no really concerning problem. At least Letang can make Malkin feel better about it.

Look at Malkin's game totals.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Neal isn't a 2 way winger. Not every one is. His claim to fame is that he puts the puck into the net and was a great winger for Geno. As a top 6 winger, putting up points is very important.

If the offensive production between the 2 players was close then you'd have a valid argument in my eyes. But it isn't close for either the reg season or even the playoffs where Neal underachieves.

Zig, he didn't put the puck in the net. I'm not sure how else to get that point across anymore. The stats don't have to be twisted because they are the truth.

All that matters is what Neal did as a Pen and what Hornqvist does as a Pen. The playoffs are where this team has failed again and again. Having a lazy floater who didn't crash the net or want to get his nose dirty to score a goal wasn't helping this team when it mattered.

Having guys who don't rely on the sweat equity of others to score goals is how you win in the playoffs. The Pens have just added two of the best at doing that in consecutive summers and although they both go at it in vastly different ways, neither leech from others and actually generate their own goals through their own sweat equity.

 

[billybudd]

You're using stats from the 11-12 and 12-13 playoffs. Aka, stats that are 3 and 4 years old. People hate on Dupuis being a top-6 option now (which not many people even do that, DCK has been pretty widely supported) because it's 2015, not 2012. Dupuis has missed a massive amount of time in the last 2 years, and even before he missed all of that time, he was already showing signs of slowing down. That was 2 years ago, I can't imagine he'd be any better now as anything more than a puck retriever.

Ziggy's completely wrong, imo, about Hornqvist, but he's not wrong about what people used to say about Dupuis. Bizarrely, he's a lot less disliked now than he was when he was leading the entire NHL in even strength scoring playing mostly with some combination of Staal, Sullivan and Cooke.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

That's not what I was arguing (initially). My argument is that JR could/should have received more in return for Neal.

Horns and Colin Wilson would be fair perhaps. At least then Geno wouldn't have been stuck with Comeau.

I agree that I would've liked to get more for Neal, but it is what it is. We got a winger with comparable offensive production, a far more effective skillset and play style come playoff time, and what was thought to be bottom six depth--which we were sorely lacking.

I think the original intent was JR wanted to get Colorado's 1st rounder and make it a package of Neal + 22nd + 23rd for Hornqvist + Spaling + 11th, but the Preds didn't want to mess around with picks.

Hornqvist was fantastic for us in the playoffs. I really can't conceive how anyone could look at how he played and say that he was underwhelming.

While it's true that scoring line players need to produce, Hornqvist brings more to the table than Neal ever has, or ever will. There's just simply no questioning/debating/arguing/etc. that fact. Sid, Hornqvist and Fleury were just about the only guys I'd say played very well last spring, all circumstances considered. And Hornqvist had broken ribs, I can't drive that point home enough for a guy who does what he does.

Ziggy's completely wrong, imo, about Hornqvist, but he's not wrong about what people used to say about Dupuis. Bizarrely, he's a lot less disliked now than he was when he was leading the entire NHL in even strength scoring playing mostly with some combination of Staal, Sullivan and Cooke.

Anomalies happen. Cheechoo once flirted with 60 goals. Ponikarovsky was a 20 goal scorer for years.

Dupuis is a heck of a player, but the type of player he is is a bottom sixer. Through and through. No other team in the league with Cup aspirations would put him on their top line for any legitimate length of time, let alone staple him to the hip of Sidney Crosby.

The fact that he was used in such a predominant role here was more about this organizations unwillingness or inability to surround Sid and Geno with effective, legitimate top-6 wingers than it had to due with Dupuis' ability or effectiveness as a scoring line winger.

 

[billybudd]

Anomalies happen. Cheechoo once flirted with 60 goals. Ponikarovsky was a 20 goal scorer for years.

Dupuis is a heck of a player, but the type of player he is is a bottom sixer. Through and through. No other team in the league with Cup aspirations would put him on their top line for any legitimate length of time, let alone staple him to the hip of Sidney Crosby.

The fact that he was used in such a predominant role here was more about this organizations unwillingness or inability to surround Sid and Geno with effective, legitimate top-6 wingers than it had to due with Dupuis' ability or effectiveness as a scoring line winger.

Cheechoo wasn't an anomaly, so much as a case of a kamikaze-style goalscorer peaking at the same time as an elite playmaker, then getting destroyed by injuries. Cheechoo was real, real good for 2-3 years. He ripped his abdominal muscles to shreds, then something happened to his leg and that was the end of him in North America.

Point wasn't that Dupuis could ever have been expected to repeat as the even strength point leader (hardly anyone does). Point was that way too many people spent way too much time complaining about and/or scapegoating him at a time when all he did was get the job done.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Ziggy's completely wrong, imo, about Hornqvist, but he's not wrong about what people used to say about Dupuis. Bizarrely, he's a lot less disliked now than he was when he was leading the entire NHL in even strength scoring playing mostly with some combination of Staal, Sullivan and Cooke.

Dupuis and Hornqvist have a lot more in common with each other than anyone seems comfortable admitting... stylistically. Obviously both have different sets of strengths and weaknesses and I personally think that Hornqvist is a more natural fit as a scoring line player. But I also don't think it's entirely accidental that both Dupuis and Hornqvist look like dook next to Malkin.

 

[yuri28]

Taking Kessel away from Crosby to jump start Malkin screws over Crosby though. I'd much rather see him tinker with the 2nd-4th line (which is what will happen if Crosby and Kessel continue to do well) than take away the chemistry Crosby and Kessel have. You don't mess with the instantaneous chemistry that those 2 have had, you find other solutions to try and fix the problems and leave what works alone.

Ok but what if the chemistry between Geno and Kessel turns out to be even better? We have yet to see how those 2 would fit.
Would you sacrify the team's results just in order to make Sid more happy?

 

[yuri28]

Why don't we give Malkin and Horny a little time to figure things out?
Not so long ago, many people thought they'd be perfect for each other and some were even furious Sid "got" him.

Tbf, in the games they played together last year, they didn't seem to fit well but things might change.

It's a situation where you'll annoy someone no matter what you do. If you put kessel with malkin you are saying he needs more help to get going and needs a pure sniper to be effective. At the same time you are basically agreeing to the mindset that Crosby can produce with grinders so he doesn't need a sniper.

As I said before, my heart says Crosby deserves to finally play with one of the league's top wingers, while my brain says you have to do what's best for the overall success of the team.

Well, contrary to Geno, Sid already had that "luxury" (Hossa).
And before someone say that Neal is one of the best wingers in the NHL, let's have a look at his stats with and without Geno....

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

I think Perron and Hornqvist, as a pair of wingers, will be fantastic with either Sid or Geno. I think Plotnikov/Bennett and Kessel will also be fantastic with either Sid or Geno.

My preference is Plotnikov and Kessel with Malkin, while Perron and Hornqvist play with Sid. Just my preference. Sid played extraordinarily well with Perron and Hornqvist before last season went to ****, and Plotnikov and Kessel could end up being Malone and Sykora on steroids for Geno.

The only wrong answers are playing guys out of position, and one or more of Kunitz and Dupuis in the top six. Other than that, it doesn't really matter which wingers (Kessel, Perron, Hornqvist, Plotnikov, Bennett) play with Sid and Geno.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Well... I've got some bad news for you, then.

Because evidently Perron is a RW and only MJ was smart enough to see it this whole time. I don't see why he'd talk about him at RW at every opportunity, play him there all of camp and preseason only to immediately switch him back when the season starts.

No... that's at least a 20 game experiment, if I had to guess.

And I don't agree that they'd be "fantastic" with either. They were very good with Crosby for a stretch last season and have proven exactly nothing with the guy that matters in this instance... Malkin.

 

[yuri28]

I sincerely, sincerely hope you are right. Believe me... I really do.

I've seen much more bad/frustrating from Malkin than good the last few seasons, though. Age and injury catches up. I realize he had a nice stretch last season... but he followed that up with his usual injury rigmarole and a nightmare close to the year. I surely hope a full year with Hornqvist helps him but, man... frankly I hate what I've seen between those two. Ice cold.

And you can verbally beat on me as much as you want. I can take it!

Good to see ya around.

Well, for most of the last regular season, he's been probably our best player along with Fleury.
If he hasn't scored more pts, it's only because of injuries (he missed around 20 games again if i remember well) and playing with crap linemates (except Bennet)

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Well, for most of the last regular season, he's been probably our best player along with Fleury.
If he hasn't scored more pts, it's only because of injuries (he missed around 20 games again if i remember well) and playing with crap linemates (except Bennet)

Injuries factor into a player's performance... fair or not. The more you sustain... the quicker you fall off. And Malkin is on the IR more than he's in the discussion for "one of the best in the world" these days.

I don't agree that he was one of last year's best players. But I know you won't hear it so I won't even address it.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

How many of those games were with elite centers like Sid and Geno? How many were with a defense first-and-foremost Nashville team?

Saying he was on Sid's line for Sid's worst season is some Bill O'Reilly crap. Hone in on one thing, out of context, and exploit it. Ignore the fact that scoring was down pretty tremendously across the board for the entire league, the team went through insane injury/illness woes, and it went on a slide which we haven't seen from this organization since the Rico Fata days.

I invite you to address the stats regarding Neal, and his supposed status as any sort of playoff performer. Note; the stats cannot quantify his lazy, generally terrible play away from the puck.

If you're going to use the "4 points in his last 17 playoff games" argument, then that really doesn't matter. Hornqvist's centers in the playoffs for Nashville were better than Sutter, whom Neal had for 9 of those 17 playoff games. He's a pure triggerman whose main feeder was a goober - what do you expect? When Malkin was Neal's center he produced, in the regular season and playoffs. When he had a ****** scoring center, he didn't.

It should also be instructive to look at the playoff stats of one Sidney Crosby over that same 17 game period, considering the Boston playoff series skews a lot of Pens' production over that time frame.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Well, for most of the last regular season, he's been probably our best player along with Fleury.
If he hasn't scored more pts, it's only because of injuries (he missed around 20 games again if i remember well) and playing with crap linemates (except Bennet)

Crosby was our best forward last year. And it wasn't particularly close.