Post-Game Talk: Pens @ Flames: Classic Sully Pens

[Pens x]

Dubas pissed away the season

 

[LOGiK]

Gotta say, that was a beautiful third period by the Flames. Fast hard skating creative team that really took it to a bunch of spent old timers. Watching Crosby get skated circles around while he stood in his own end is not a good look (specifically 4 minutes remaining in the third when the Flames were coming hard).
I remember the days this'd be a Penguins team doing the hard skating looking good style hockey in contention for the cup.
But this team... man oh man.... GM whats his name can't make this team exciting to watch then what is the reason to watch? To see how good other teams can schlack old near-retirement stars?
Soon as Sully gave his 'let's go out there and blow this game' speech... I had to think to myself... this guy couldn't possibly motivate them... motivate them to even do what? Dump and chase harder!
Funny enough I watched the game side-by-side with the LFC match and they won the game in the last seconds, meanwhile FSG opposite acquisition blew another in the final seconds. Too funny!

 

[Richard]

One bad general is better than two good ones - time to make a f***ing decision has come and gone. Season over.

Sullivan should have been gone in November and another center needed acquired or brought up

 

[Al Smith]

Ok but why do we insist on losing in the most embarrassing fashion? Own goals, embarrassing D gaffes worthy of a beer league…why do we have to dump on the ice to lose lol

As we head into the NHL basement, we won't blow as many leads; we'll just lose more games 6-1. I don't know if that will be more embarrassing than blowing two two-goal leads via the Flames' horrific first, second, and fourth goals last night.

 

[SEALBound]

This was actually a good thing to happen because hopefully it pisses Dubas off. I'm hoping we get slaughtered by Edmonton to push Dubas into full sell mode. But here's the thing too - in my eyes, there's is ZERO reason not to sell. Not only do we need young prospects and draft picks but more importantly, for this season, I'm not sure it's going to matter if they sell off a couple guys.

If you get Rust back and run Raks-Sid-Rust; DOC-Malkin-Puustinen, I think this team will have the EXACT same chance as if you kept everyone. Reports are that they want a roster player swap with Smith. I can't fathom a situation where that player brought in magically turns the season around. Say it's Mikheyev...that ain't moving the needle this season.

If you traded Jake, Smith, Neds, Acciari, and one more - zero reason to think that will impact how we finish in the standings. If they gett 100% futures, no change. Roster replacements, great, still no change.

Outside of the core, there is not one "but you CAN'T sell him!!!" guy on this roster. The only guy that you can maybe say that about is our best trade chip and very likely to be traded. I say sell everything you can, get the best young players and prospects you can, and try again next year. I wouldn't be scared to get aggressive either because, what's the worst that can happen next year?

Jake for Brisson, Dorofeyev, 1st, 2nd
Smith for Mikheyev
Jarry for Holtz + 1st
Acciari for a 4th
Pettersson for a return like Bahl, 1st, 2nd or pry Mercer from NJ

Go get some young future-impact players.

Nothing the Penguins dealt the Leafs for Kapanen turned into anything. You could argue there were some players that could’ve been taken with the pick. But mostly a coin flip.

View attachment 828561

I looked through every trade in the Shero, JR, Hextall, and Dubas (too early) eras and there was very, VERY little that we gave away. With the draft picks, I looked at the players taken plus 5-10 back because you never know how they ranked and I think there were 2-3 times where there was a "maybe". Mercer was one, as seen above. Jason Robertson was another in 2017 was another. K'Andre Miller in 2018 depending on how one views him. The big one was Barzal in 2015 but that got us Perron which got us Hagelin so...whatever. Passed that, I think Dzingle being taken with the 7th we sent to Ottawa for Kovalev in 2011 rounds out the list. No prospect we've traded as amounted to anything significant. A couple 4th line / 3rd pairing people but that's it.

Scouts in attendance for Penguins-Flames: Blues, Hurricanes, Jets, Capitals, Blackhawks, Avalanche (2), Predators, Senators, Islanders, Ducks.

I could see the Avs potentially liking Smith.

 

[HandshakeLine]

No prospect we've traded as amounted to anything significant. A couple 4th line / 3rd pairing people but that's it.

That alone should be cause to re-evaluate how this team is drafting and developing.

 

[SEALBound]

That alone should be cause to re-evaluate how this team is drafting and developing.

It really, really should but at the same time I noted that it wasn't that uncommon with those late firsts. We've seen the studies that basically say after 10 it's a crap shoot.

The development part - yes. I often wonder if some guys are stunted a bit in WBS because of what a shit team it usually is. If you added 3-4 1st/2nd round picks, would it elevate everyone?

 

[HandshakeLine]

I really, really should but at the same time I noted that it wasn't that uncommon with those late firsts. We've seen the studies that basically say after 10 it's a crap shoot.

The development part - yes. I often wonder if some guys are stunted a bit in WBS because of what a shit team it usually is. If you added 3-4 1st/2nd round picks, would it elevate everyone?

Part of it is the coaching, perhaps? J.D. Forrest doesn't seem great and the team seems mired in the same systemic style/roster mismatch problem. IDK, I don't watch WB/S that often though so I'll defer to people there.

Another aspect that is just always puzzling for the last few years is how the team handled its prospects, mostly in not giving them even an occasional cup of coffee during our frequent injuries. Again, to prove a point, it makes no difference if you thought Hallander was a bust or a waste, but trading the guy, bringing him back, and then keeping him in WB/S shows that a) the organization and the coaches aren't really on the same page and b) coaching doesn't really think the scouts are picking players they feel confident in trying, even in a crisis. Puus was ready last year, and certainly better for top 9 duty than Accairi or White or Hawkins or Poolparty whoever we keep claiming and trying to force there.

What this team needed from its farm squad for the last 5 seasons was a pipeline of cheap, sufficient players. We've seen these players from here go on to be fine in other organizations. We just can't seem to find a way to make these young players work here, so we have to keep going out and signing expensive vets who play worse for reasons unbeknown to man.

 

[LOGiK]

I really, really should but at the same time I noted that it wasn't that uncommon with those late firsts. We've seen the studies that basically say after 10 it's a crap shoot.

The development part - yes. I often wonder if some guys are stunted a bit in WBS because of what a shit team it usually is. If you added 3-4 1st/2nd round picks, would it elevate everyone?

Anyone have a (pitt) drafted player to solid NHL player chart since 2005?
Feels like there were so many good players in the minors back in the day. And by so many... I mean more than the current state.
I get they were in the dumps half of the 2000's...

 

[Grouch]

Dubas Sully pissed away the season

This could have been a team to go at least 2 rounds deep with a different coach using different combinations of players (and less Harkins obv)

 

[SEALBound]

Part of it is the coaching, perhaps? J.D. Forrest doesn't seem great and the team seems mired in the same systemic style/roster mismatch problem. IDK, I don't watch WB/S that often though so I'll defer to people there.

Another aspect that is just always puzzling for the last few years is how the team handled its prospects, mostly in not giving them even an occasional cup of coffee during our frequent injuries. Again, to prove a point, it makes no difference if you thought Hallander was a bust or a waste, but trading the guy, bringing him back, and then keeping him in WB/S shows that a) the organization and the coaches aren't really on the same page and b) coaching doesn't really think the scouts are picking players they feel confident in trying, even in a crisis. Puus was ready last year, and certainly better for top 9 duty than Accairi or White or Hawkins or Poolparty whoever we keep claiming and trying to force there.

What this team needed from its farm squad for the last 5 seasons was a pipeline of cheap, sufficient players. We've seen these players from here go on to be fine in other organizations. We just can't seem to find a way to make these young players work here, so we have to keep going out and signing expensive vets who play worse for reasons unbeknown to man.

In seasons past, when I talk opening lines ups I usually had the 4th line wing slot open for a WBS/camp guy with that very idea - rotate through your minors guys so you can see who you have. There's no reason they couldn't have been rotating through Nylander, Poulin, Zohorna, Hinostranza, Gruden, and a few others. This is where Dubas needs to step in though and waive a guy like Harkins whether Sully wants it or not.

Anyone have a (pitt) drafted player to solid NHL player chart since 2005?
Feels like there were so many good players in the minors back in the day. And by so many... I mean more than the current state.
I get they were in the dumps half of the 2000's...

I think this should help: Pittsburgh Penguins Draft History at hockeydb.com

Tough when you see so many 4-7th round picks...there's frustration there for sure but we have to be realistic. Going through each draft, it's quite rare for a 4th through 7th round pick to play a game let alone be an NHL regular. Puustinen is defying the odds right now.

 

[Gurglesons]

Part of it is the coaching, perhaps? J.D. Forrest doesn't seem great and the team seems mired in the same systemic style/roster mismatch problem. IDK, I don't watch WB/S that often though so I'll defer to people there.

Another aspect that is just always puzzling for the last few years is how the team handled its prospects, mostly in not giving them even an occasional cup of coffee during our frequent injuries. Again, to prove a point, it makes no difference if you thought Hallander was a bust or a waste, but trading the guy, bringing him back, and then keeping him in WB/S shows that a) the organization and the coaches aren't really on the same page and b) coaching doesn't really think the scouts are picking players they feel confident in trying, even in a crisis. Puus was ready last year, and certainly better for top 9 duty than Accairi or White or Hawkins or Poolparty whoever we keep claiming and trying to force there.

What this team needed from its farm squad for the last 5 seasons was a pipeline of cheap, sufficient players. We've seen these players from here go on to be fine in other organizations. We just can't seem to find a way to make these young players work here, so we have to keep going out and signing expensive vets who play worse for reasons unbeknown to man.

Players don’t get chances to play in this organization.

We’ve been desperate for offensive talent and we’ve had Puustinen sitting and waiting for a year plus now. He’s finally forced into the line up due to injury and look at him. He’s on a 30+ pt pace.

 

[ChaosAgent]

They can blow it up but the Core have NMC's, so they're going nowhere

You can still sell Guentzel, Rust (lol that they have already pre-emptively told him they won't ask him to waive, cowards), Petts, EK65 and Jarry for significant value.

A core without those pieces can easily tank. I don't want to hear this bullf*ck that Crosby is too good for us to be a top 5 picking team. It's not rooted in reality. The X Gen Pens had Mario freaking Lemieux and had no problem finishing at the bottom.

If Sid, Geno and Letang have a problem with being on a tanking team, they know what their options are.

 

[Gurglesons]

You can still sell Guentzel, Rust (lol that they have already pre-emptively told him they won't ask him to waive, cowards), Petts, EK65 and Jarry for significant value.

A core without those pieces can easily tank. I don't want to hear this bullf*ck that Crosby is too good for us to be a top 5 picking team. It's not rooted in reality. The X Gen Pens had Mario freaking Lemieux and had no problem finishing at the bottom.

If Sid, Geno and Letang have a problem with being on a tanking team, they know what their options are.

I feel MP28 and Jarry return a 2nd round pick each at best.

EK65 you can probably get a 1st for if you retain but that eats up retention for years.

 

[Nakawick]

That was a back breaking loss.

 

[ChaosAgent]

I feel MP28 and Jarry return a 2nd round pick each at best.

EK65 you can probably get a 1st for if you retain but that eats up retention for years.

Great!

Petts is worth more than a 2nd too.

Sell! Sell! Sell! Stop the delusion. One more year of the delusion will be more painful than this.

 

[SEALBound]

Players don’t get chances to play in this organization.

We’ve been desperate for offensive talent and we’ve had Puustinen sitting and waiting for a year plus now. He’s finally forced into the line up due to injury and look at him. He’s on a 30+ pt pace.

Meanwhile:
Harkins - blows
Carter - blows
Phillips - blows
Acciari - blows
Nieto - blows

It's a Sullivan AND Dubas issue. With the exception of Poulin, I don't think there's much in WBS though but this is where the signings and claiming of guys like Nieto, Acciari, Harkins, Phillips, and Puljujarvi just kill the roster. Especially a Sullivan run roster.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Players don’t get chances to play in this organization.

We’ve been desperate for offensive talent and we’ve had Puustinen sitting and waiting for a year plus now. He’s finally forced into the line up due to injury and look at him. He’s on a 30+ pt pace.

People will still say "oh, but we don't know if he can keep it up, it's only a 30+ point pace", but that's just dumb as f***in' hell. We won't know if he can keep it up unless we try him, and even if he "busts" at just a 20 point ceiling or whatever, it's still better than Harkins, Carter, Accarai, White, Nieto, and Smith by virtue of being younger and cheaper. We could even create value for our player who drafted for a 7th instead of just pissing away 2nd and 3rds and trolling the waiver wire for more expensive busts.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I feel MP28 and Jarry return a 2nd round pick each at best.

EK65 you can probably get a 1st for if you retain but that eats up retention for years.

I think Petts brings back a 1st+ pretty easily. Very palatable $4 million AAV for the rest of this year and next, solid defensively, can skate decently enough, and is 27. Jarry's a goalie and unless the guy's at the very top, they kinda feel like the return is underwhelming.

EK is gonna be a huge hassle to move imo. Like you said; f***s over a retention spot for a long time and you're probably not getting much back in the way of assets beyond a lotto scratch off kinda 1st rounder in the 25-30 range.

Also, it's f***ing psychotic that Sullivan--let alone Todd f***ing Reirden--are still employed this afternoon.

Bozo organization. Just absolutely unlikable, arrogant and stupid as f***.

 

[ChaosAgent]

EK is gonna be a huge hassle to move imo. Like you said; f***s over a retention spot for a long time and you're probably not getting much back in the way of assets beyond a lotto scratch off kinda 1st rounder in the 25-30 range.

Retention spots are made to be used so that you can get a 1st for a guy like Karlsson.

If there is an albatross $6M AAV contract we can take on instead, then sure let's do it.
But otherwise, ensuring we get value for Karlsson is one of the best uses of one of those 3 spots. One should be absolutely earmarked for him. He's going to want out anyway.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Retention spots are made to be used so that you can get a 1st for a guy like Karlsson.

If there is an albatross $6M AAV contract we can take on instead, then sure let's do it.
But otherwise, ensuring we get value for Karlsson is one of the best uses of one of those 3 spots. One should be absolutely earmarked for him. He's going to want out anyway.

Yeah, I'm operating under the assumption that one of the retention spots is 100% gonna be EK. But I'm sure the team would rather take back some trash on expiring or close to expiring deals rather than eat $5+ million in retained money. This ownership won't even fire the coach that's been trash since 2019 because of contractual obligations, I doubt they're keen on retaining to get some value out of EK.

 

[SEALBound]

Retention spots are made to be used so that you can get a 1st for a guy like Karlsson.

If there is an albatross $6M AAV contract we can take on instead, then sure let's do it.
But otherwise, ensuring we get value for Karlsson is one of the best uses of one of those 3 spots. One should be absolutely earmarked for him. He's going to want out anyway.

Using a retention spot on Karlsson wouldn't be a big deal provided we are getting value back that justifies it.

We don't have a lot of guys we'd be wanting to sell that would need those slots for. If you used it on Jake this year, it goes away at the end of the year. Raks and Rust are too long for a team to justify paying the extra value for retention when the cap is going up.

I don't even know where you'd send EK to. Most cup contenders couldn't fit him right now.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Yeah, I'm operating under the assumption that one of the retention spots is 100% gonna be EK. But I'm sure the team would rather take back some trash on expiring or close to expiring deals rather than eat $5+ million in retained money. This ownership won't even fire the coach that's been trash since 2019 because of contractual obligations, I doubt they're keen on retaining to get some value out of EK.

Maybe they just stop spending to the cap. The $ value of the core's contracts also isn't their cap hits right now.

I think the salary on coaching thing and not wanting to pay 2 coaches will be differently compartmentalized under FSG. Also, EK himself is going to ask out. He wants to win, it won't happen here

 

[the penitent]

Assuming we lose to EDM tonight (a near certainty) and beat Columbus (maybe), I really think Dubas' plan hinges on what happens against Washington on Thursday. If we beat the Caps, I believe he'll still think the playoffs are attainable, and willl play the trade deadline accordingly - thoughts?

 

[HandshakeLine]

Maybe they just stop spending to the cap. The $ value of the core's contracts also isn't their cap hits right now.

I think the salary on coaching thing and not wanting to pay 2 coaches will be differently compartmentalized under FSG. Also, EK himself is going to ask out. He wants to win, it won't happen here

They could easily do this and also perhaps have had better results by not paying over the hill vets to do mediocre-to-poor jobs.