Patrick Wiercioch | Part II

[Benjamin]

Trade or keep him. Idc. I dont think he has top 4 ability.

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[Baby Ryan]

Keep him, at least for now. His play at the latter end of the season and post-season has earned him a solid rope for the early parts of next season.

 

[FlyingJ]

And him getting his contract is his fault how?

It's management's fault for giving him the contract, one that hurts their ability to acquire better players whether through trade or free agency and takes up a roster spot in general. It's also their job to realize their mistakes and correct them.

Ceci struggled this year with or without Cowen. Boro brings grit and all the nasty stuff but to say he is a better defenceman than Cowen is pretty far fetched. Have you not watched any of the games where he was playing in the bottom pairing being hemmed in the defensive zone for the majority of his shift?

Ceci did have his struggles, but tended to play better away from Cowen. And yeah, I do recall Boro being hemmed in his own end, often with Gryba. I also recall Cowen being hemmed in his own end a ton too, regardless of who he played with, due to his very poor ability to retrieve the puck and make good decisions with it. His hitting was a classic example of chasing the play, not using it to effectively separate opponents from the puck.

Every single defencemen out there makes blunders. The reason he gets more crap from fans more so than other players probably has a lot to do with your initial point about his contract.

You think just because of his draft pedigree alone that he gets a much longer leash? Or maybe because he has actually shown that he has the ability to mould into the type of player a top 10 pick is projected to be?

Where and when has he shown this ability? His rookie year where he was solid but unspectacular? Where he was at best the #5 defenceman on the team? Before he had the injury to his hip and now a hernia? Truly, that he played reasonably well for a rookie back now 3 years ago makes him soooo deserving of the constant chances he gets

The contract plays a part in fan's dislike for him, but so does his regression for the last 2 seasons, and the knowledge that the team used a top 10 pick on this guy who people, including Murray, seem more in love with the hypothetical possibility of what he could be rather than what he's shown on the ice the alst few seasons.

The ENTIRE TEAM played great hockey for the most part as a collective unit and coincidentally Hammond played like a god when he was out but let me guess it was due to Cowen being out of the line up?

Yep, the entire team did play great. And having Cowen, Phillips, Neil, and Smith all out for the vast majority if not all of that run helped. The team finally played close to an optimal lineup game to game.

Hammond's run isn't sustainable, but let's not for one second think the team's injuries to certain skaters didn't benefit the quality of play. It wasn't just Cowen being out, though again, that helped.

 

[Six Assets]

I don't really care if we keep or trade him but I really hope Cowen is gone before him.

 

[BigBush*]

It appears this thread has become a Cowen thread, arguing whether or not Cowen is the worst defenseman on the team.

Is Cowen worse then Phillips? IMO yes, because Phillips played great for the first few weeks and for a longer stretch then Cowen did.

 

[Pierre from Orleans]

It's management's fault for giving him the contract, one that hurts their ability to acquire better players whether through trade or free agency and takes up a roster spot in general. It's also their job to realize their mistakes and correct them.

Right, which has nothing to do with Cowens play at all.

Ceci did have his struggles, but tended to play better away from Cowen. And yeah, I do recall Boro being hemmed in his own end, often with Gryba. I also recall Cowen being hemmed in his own end a ton too, regardless of who he played with, due to his very poor ability to retrieve the puck and make good decisions with it. His hitting was a classic example of chasing the play, not using it to effectively separate opponents from the puck.

His hitting wasn't too much of a factor as he looked much more tentative making a big hit due to his suspension history. I agree that he needs to be more aware and play within his limits so that he doesn't get caught out of position since he does not have the foot speed to catch ground despite being relatively mobile for a big guy

Where and when has he shown this ability? His rookie year where he was solid but unspectacular? Where he was at best the #5 defenceman on the team? Before he had the injury to his hip and now a hernia? Truly, that he played reasonably well for a rookie back now 3 years ago makes him soooo deserving of the constant chances he gets

#5th best defencemen? Wasn't this the same season that everyone wanted Gonchar and to a lesser extent Kuba gone due to their lackluster play?

What constant chances? He got scratched a number of times this year, sometimes warranted and sometimes not.

The contract plays a part in fan's dislike for him, but so does his regression for the last 2 seasons, and the knowledge that the team used a top 10 pick on this guy who people, including Murray, seem more in love with the hypothetical possibility of what he could be rather than what he's shown on the ice the alst few seasons.

Do you expect every drafted player to make an immediate impact?

He played great for his rookie season and his progression got hindered due to his injuries. He came back into the lineup, got tossed into a top 4 role and was expected to perform as if he was perfectly fine. Once he started to finally pick up his game got scratched for no apparent reason (don't think a reason was actually given either) and then the extremely rare run happened

Anyways this is a thread about Wier not Cowen.

 

[Tee Lo]

Maybe the shots against were indicative of the system that was deployed by Stache?

And what do you mean where do people get that Cowen played good for a good stretch this season? All you had to do was watch the games and not over analyse every single thing he did.

I haven't looked back at the earlier games, so correct me if I'm wrong.

Cowen got scratched by PMAC earlier on in the season for poor play. When he returned; his play was slightly improved, and he seemed to be on the right track.
But that really only lasted a few games... no where near a consistent stretch of good hockey.

It's been two seasons now where Cowen has been bad.

When is it time to move on?

Play the better player, which is Wiercioch.

 

[FlyingJ]

#5th best defencemen? Wasn't this the same season that everyone wanted Gonchar and to a lesser extent Kuba gone due to their lackluster play?

What constant chances? He got scratched a number of times this year, sometimes warranted and sometimes not.

What? While Kuba was by no means great, 2011-12 saw him play fairly well, largely due to playing with Karlsson during his Norris winning season. Gonchar was also solid after a really lacklustre debut season with the Sens in 2010-11.

Regarding the scratches, yep, and frankly, deserved to be scratched far more often. Especially early in the season.

And despite all these struggles, Murray is still bullish that Cowen "is gonna be a real good player," citing his size as a big reason. I'll admit that Murray could simply be trying to talk up an asset to get more value for him, but given that this has been Murray's view on Cowen the last 2 seasons and he's still here, I have some doubts.

Do you expect every drafted player to make an immediate impact?

It's been 6 years since this top 10 pick was drafted. He's had plenty of time to make an impact.

He played great for his rookie season and his progression got hindered due to his injuries. He came back into the lineup, got tossed into a top 4 role and was expected to perform as if he was perfectly fine. Once he started to finally pick up his game got scratched for no apparent reason (don't think a reason was actually given either) and then the extremely rare run happened

Again, Cowen apologists keep on referencing his rookie year as if he was some force to be reckoned with and on a clear path to stardom. He was solid, looked like he had good top 4 potential. But the way some people talk on this board, you'd think it was a guarantee he was the next Chara or Pronger. Probably people looking more at his height than anything. Seems common among management too.

He got scratched because his play sucked. It sucked early in the year, and began sucking again in January. The suspension and then illness gave Wiercioch a chance to prove he could play better than Cowen, and he did. Plain and simple.

Injuries have no doubt played a part, and frankly are reason to consider trading him now in case his value sinks further. 2 major surgeries (1 in junior and then the hip one in 2012-13) on top ofsports hernia surgery now. That's a lot for a guy who is only 24. Look at Peter Regin, who showed promise in his rookie year, but then a string of serious shoulder injuries and subsequent surgeries left him a shell of the player he was as a rookie.

Anyways this is a thread about Wier not Cowen.

Yep, and right now Wiercioch >>>>> Cowen AINEC.

Wiercioch's skating may not be great, but it's at least on par with Cowen's. And Wier can actually move the puck up the ice and make good decisions with it. Something Cowen hasn't been able to do with any consistency for 2 seasons now.

 

[ReginKarlssonLehner]

Watching the elite teams, he is too slow to become a legit top 4. Trade him.

 

[Vesa Awesaka]

Watching the elite teams, he is too slow to become a legit top 4. Trade him.

I agree but still think he is a useful number 5 who can play top 4 in a pinch. Lots of players to move before Wier unless someone blows your socks off. I mean this organization lacks what Wier can bring. LD pmds... I mean who realistically can fit that role that we have in the system? Wikstrand is looking good but its still hard to project what he might given he's never played in NA

Methot
Cowen
Boro
Claessan
Hapur
Englund

all the same types of players


Wier
Wikstrand

guys who have an aptitude for moving the puck.

Based on that im not in a hurry to move out Wier rather i'd move out some of those LD defensive dmen.


We need to bring in an upgrade to Wier and im not sure murray can do that

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

I haven't looked back at the earlier games, so correct me if I'm wrong.

Cowen got scratched by PMAC earlier on in the season for poor play. When he returned; his play was slightly improved, and he seemed to be on the right track.
But that really only lasted a few games... no where near a consistent stretch of good hockey.

It's been two seasons now where Cowen has been bad.

When is it time to move on?

Play the better player, which is Wiercioch.

You could argue the same for Wier other than his 20-25 game stretch to end last year.

I don't care for either at this point and I hope we look externally for a true 2nd pairing LD this summer.

 

[Xamar*]

You could argue the same for Wier other than his 20-25 game stretch to end last year.

I don't care for either at this point and I hope we look externally for a true 2nd pairing LD this summer.

He was still bad then too. Just a little better than Cowen

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

He was still bad then too. Just a little better than Cowen

I would agree. I still didn't trust him and I think his play is being exaggerated, but he was decent enough.

If we go with Wier - Ceci again as our 2nd pair, I REALLY hope we upgrade gryba so we have a more competent 3rd pairing as insurance for an underwhelming 2nd pairing.

 

[God Says No]

I would agree. I still didn't trust him and I think his play is being exaggerated, but he was decent enough.

If we go with Wier - Ceci again as our 2nd pair, I REALLY hope we upgrade gryba so we have a more competent 3rd pairing as insurance for an underwhelming 2nd pairing.

In a optimal scenario, Wier-Ceci should be our third pairing. But we are missing one or two top 4D.

 

[FlyingJ]

You could argue the same for Wier other than his 20-25 game stretch to end last year.

I don't care for either at this point and I hope we look externally for a true 2nd pairing LD this summer.

Well, he had a good stretch to end 2013-14 and an even better one to end 2014-15. So, that's two years in a row where he finished strong. And in both seasons, while he did struggle early on, when he finally got the opportunity to play game-in-game-out he played quite well.

Is he a true top 4 defenceman? I'm not completely sold, but he's shown a lot more than Cowen. Ideally, I'd say find a legitimate top 4 RD this summer to play with Wiercioch. Perhaps a stay at home defenceman who can actually skate well, like Methot (hard to find, I know). This would allow for Ceci to be pushed down to the third pairing to play with Borowiecki and provide the latter with a partner who can move the puck effectively while giving Ceci some shelter to develop. Or perhaps give Claesson or Wikstrand a chance on the third pairing with Ceci if they play well in camp.

The problem with finding a top 4 defenceman is Ottawa's internal budget combined with several bad existing contracts that take up a number of roster spots. They don't have one major albatross contract, but smaller bad ones that all add up. Phillips, Neil, Greening, Cowen, Legwand (he didn't play atrociously, but for a cap hit of $3M and an actualsalary next season of $3.5M, he's not deserving of that IMO), and Smith combine to make $15.95M next year in actual salary. For a budget team like Ottawa, even if there is some more money to spend than the previous season, that's a hefty chunk of change to pay guys who were constant scratches (admittedly Legwand was only an occassional scratch late in the year) or who benefitted the team more by being injured and thus out of the lineup.

 

[BigBush*]

Ceci is 21 and has been a staple on our second pairing for the past 2 years. A role he stole from Weir and Cowen.


He is young and will only improve. He should not be moved to the bottom pairing. A decision should be made on whether Cowen or Weir are legit top 4 Dman, or whether they will develop into one to play with Ceci.

 

[FlyingJ]

Ceci is 21 and has been a staple on our second pairing for the past 2 years. A role he stole from Weir and Cowen.


He is young and will only improve. He should not be moved to the bottom pairing. A decision should be made on whether Cowen or Weir are legit top 4 Dman, or whether they will develop into one to play with Ceci.

Ceci also had his fair share of ups and downs this season, and even last I'd argue. He started off really strong but then faded as the season went on. Don't let the beat writers in Ottawa (the same guys who defend Phillips as still being an NHL calibre defenceman) fool you. He still shows flashes of top 4 potential, and did improve overall this season I'd argue. But at 21, he's been rushed in to a top 4 role way too soon. Largely because the only true top 4 defenceman the Sens have are Karlsson and Methot. Whether that's more due to poor player evaluation and asset management, the internal budget, or some combination thereof, we can only speculate on. Ceci's struggles in the playoffs, while his partner in Wiercioch still played quite well, only punctuated the fact that he needs some sheltering while he develops.

As for the "he's young and will only improve" comment...yeah, because that's always how it works . Case in point: Cowen. Just because a player's young is no guarantee they will improve or reach their seeming potential.

 

[BigBush*]

Ceci also had his fair share of ups and downs this season, and even last I'd argue. He started off really strong but then faded as the season went on. Don't let the beat writers in Ottawa (the same guys who defend Phillips as still being an NHL calibre defenceman) fool you. He still shows flashes of top 4 potential, and did improve overall this season I'd argue. But at 21, he's been rushed in to a top 4 role way too soon. Largely because the only true top 4 defenceman the Sens have are Karlsson and Methot. Whether that's more due to poor player evaluation and asset management, the internal budget, or some combination thereof, we can only speculate on. Ceci's struggles in the playoffs, while his partner in Wiercioch still played quite well, only punctuated the fact that he needs some sheltering while he develops.

As for the "he's young and will only improve" comment...yeah, because that's always how it works . Case in point: Cowen. Just because a player's young is no guarantee they will improve or reach their seeming potential.

I don't read the beat writers in Ottawa.

IMO Ceci has been far more stable then both Weir and Cowen.

I don't think we should move down the guy who's best shown he can handle the ice time.

Ceci I find far better and more consistent then Cowen and Weir. I'd say he has a higher ceiling as well

 

[Holdurbreathe]

Watching the elite teams, he is too slow to become a legit top 4. Trade him.

If the trade/no trade decision is based on watching the play of the D on elite teams, then everyone not named Karlsson should be traded!!!!

The one thing to keep in mind though, players like EK, Subban, etc are far from the average in the NHL, in that they are elite and young.

Most top NHL D took years to reach their elite/very good status and were years older than Weircoich, Ceci and Cowen.

IMO the trade/no trade decision should be based on whether or not BM believes a players weaknesses can be corrected and the player has the character, determination and mental toughness to contribute to a cup contender.

 

[Holdurbreathe]

I don't read the beat writers in Ottawa.

IMO Ceci has been far more stable then both Weir and Cowen.

I don't think we should move down the guy who's best shown he can handle the ice time.

Ceci I find far better and more consistent then Cowen and Weir. I'd say he has a higher ceiling as well

Ceci really wasn't consistent at all this season.

 

[BigBush*]

Ceci really wasn't consistent at all this season.

Just far more consistent then Weir and Cowen. Ceci's "worst" isn't as bad as these guys worse. He has his bad games but he usually bounces back quickly.

My main point is I don't think we should take the guy who's proved hes most ready for a top 4 role out of a top 4 role.

 

[BondraTime]

I don't care where Wier plays, please, PLEASE just make sure Boro-Gryba are never on the ice together again

 

[God Says No]

Just far more consistent then Weir and Cowen. Ceci's "worst" isn't as bad as these guys worse. He has his bad games but he usually bounces back quickly.

My main point is I don't think we should take the guy who's proved hes most ready for a top 4 role out of a top 4 role.

Disagree with the bolded. The difference between Ceci and Cowen is that Cowen is worst a lot more than Ceci. Ceci is inconsistent, but has more good games than bad. It's the opposite for Cowen.

As for Wier, he was pretty steady all year. Way less variance in play than both Cowen and Ceci. Just his play level is not as high when it's going well when compared to Ceci. You may have perceived he was playing poorly this year and maybe past, but in reality he was always pretty steady. People will bring in their biases, and this was extremely visible with respect to Wier.

 

[BigBush*]

Disagree with the bolded. The difference between Ceci and Cowen is that Cowen is worst a lot more than Ceci. Ceci is inconsistent, but has more good games than bad. It's the opposite for Cowen.

As for Wier, he was pretty steady all year. Way less variance in play than both Cowen and Ceci. Just his play level is not as high when it's going well when compared to Ceci. You may have perceived he was playing poorly this year and maybe past, but in reality he was always pretty steady. People will bring in their biases, and this was extremely visible with respect to Wier.

I'd actually agree with this.

 

[BigBush*]

I don't care where Wier plays, please, PLEASE just make sure Boro-Gryba are never on the ice together again

Seems like they could grow into a decent shut down pairing.

It wouldn't be my biggest worry if I was Murray