Owners cave again??

[Cawz]

so how come VAN and OTT could do it, but EDM cant ?

dr

Well, a few years ago Edmonton and Colorado were jockeying for 1st and 2nd in the division.

Ffwd a few years and Edmontons 2 superstars now make 8.5 and 8.9 million on different teams.

Vancouvers 2 superstars right now make 5.2 and 3.7 million.

Do the math, realize the trend, remember history. If this work stoppage happened a few years ago, I'm sure some Oiler fans would be saying the same thing as you, blindly ignoring inevidability.

Ps, feel free to correct my numbers if they are off a bit. I'm only as good as my sources.

 

[Brent Burns Beard]

The year was 2002 - 03. .

are you suggesting the revenue's have gone down since ?

dr

 

[Brent Burns Beard]

I laugh whenever anybody points out Ottawa. Both you & I know (as well as anybody with any semblence of common sense) that their day of having to pay the piper is just about on them.The same thing is going to happen to TB in short order.

and whats wrong with this ?

dr

 

[Brent Burns Beard]

Ottawa has had good drafting and player development.

are you suggesting that if EDM had good drafting and player development (not to mention trades), they would be in better shape ?

i agree.

dr

 

[EroCaps]

I was under the impression that there's a 40 million soft cap w/luxury tax included, but 50 mill hard cap to top off? Not bad.

There's no chance the players would accept a 35-40 million hard cap.

 

[kerrly]

are you suggesting the revenue's have gone down since ?

dr

No, but neither have player's salaries and expenses.

 

[kerrly]

are you suggesting that if EDM had good drafting and player development (not to mention trades), they would be in better shape ?

i agree.

dr

As of right now, I think Edmonton has some great prospects in the system and I'm not worried in that department at all. Unlike Ottawa, we don't have a super rich owner who is willing to help pay to keep that talent here. You know, I'm still up for debating Lowe's trades if you want to take me up on this time. I mean you call Lowe incompetent, and you say Nonis is competent, eventhough he's had the team for a few months. You're hatred for the Oilers runs deep, and its very obvious in numerous posts you make. Alot of them are based on assumption. Just like you assumed Kevin Lowe would trade away youth under a cap system to acquire so overpriced vets, and Nonis would never because he is competent.

 

[Brent Burns Beard]

which team just bought a presidents trophy.

which team ? lost me here.

Worked in 94. solid team + edmonton oilers + buckets of cash = cup.

do you consider trading two young prospects like Amonte and WEight to be buying a cup ? i mean, if you cant even trade your assets to get better, how else are you supposed to make a run for a cup ? i dont consider it buying a cup.

Not all are winners, not all are losers. Washington wasn't much different to the Avs, Blake-Borque v Lang-Jagr. But Washington tried to buy a cup and the Avs didn't? Can't have it both ways.

COL traded good assets for Blake and Bourque. Thats not buying a cup.

Indeed. Can't argue with Detroits first 2 cups, or NJs success or the Avs early success.

Do the Wings win their 3rd cup without using their substantial financial advantage to pick up players other teams can't afford (Chelios, Hasek) or UFAs?

Do the Avs win their last cup if they don't throw money at a UFA-dump Blake ($10m) or take on Borque and his big contract? Probably not.

are teams not allowed to use the fruits of their efforts to continue their progress ? they had the money due to all the playoff runs they earned. whats wrong with that ?

Did the attempt to buy a cup outright like NYR, no, but you can't argue they didn't use the financial power to vastly improve their chances. They were not a Tampa type achievement.

right ... they earned that financial advantage. are you suggesting COL has some market advantage over EDM ? how is Denver a better hockey market than the heartland of hockey ? COL was able to vastly improve their chances because they made awesome personel moves and generated the money to keep it going. EDM made poor choices and therefore are looking at the dogs ass the whole way.

Teams with money using money to improve their chances. Nothing illegal or unfair about it, it was allowed, it was how the old CBA was supposed to work to a degree.

right .. so why all the debate ?

Want me to list all those that didn't try and did fail?

not sure i understand the question. i can suggest many teams that havent tried (CHI and BOS) and have failed. is that what you mean ?

dr

 

[Brent Burns Beard]

As of right now, I think Edmonton has some great prospects in the system and I'm not worried in that department at all. Unlike Ottawa, we don't have a super rich owner who is willing to help pay to keep that talent here. You know, I'm still up for debating Lowe's trades if you want to take me up on this time. I mean you call Lowe incompetent, and you say Nonis is competent, eventhough he's had the team for a few months. You're hatred for the Oilers runs deep, and its very obvious in numerous posts you make. Alot of them are based on assumption. Just like you assumed Kevin Lowe would trade away youth under a cap system to acquire so overpriced vets, and Nonis would never because he is competent.

i never claimed Nonis was competent ... gotta go for now .. will get back to this later.

dr

 

[kerrly]

i never claimed Nonis was competent ... gotta go for now .. will get back to this later.

dr

Ok and by the time you get back, I'll have the exact quote pulled up for you when you did claim he was competent. Later man.

Sorry, that wasn't you.....it was another Vancouver fan, I got mixed up, sorry again.

 

[I in the Eye]

I laugh whenever anybody points out Ottawa. Both you & I know (as well as anybody with any semblence of common sense) that their day of having to pay the piper is just about on them.The same thing is going to happen to TB in short order.

That depends on the individual team success, IMO...

From my point-of-view, if Ottawa doesn't go far in the playoffs for a few steady years (and reap the rewards of playoff revenue over a consistent amount of time) then they don't deserve to keep their team together as is indefinitely...

IMO, it would be a sign of a problem if they consistently go far in the playoffs year-after-year (accumulating wealth), and then they can't afford to keep their team together - which they deserve to keep together... assuming that management doesn't waste this accumulating wealth on expensive UFAs - and use the money to keep together the aging core together instead...

If the Canucks consistently get knocked out of the 1st round of the playoffs, IMO, we don't deserve to be able to afford to keep our core together...

IMO, Detroit and Colorodo deserve to have a competitive advantage... They've accumulated wealth over the approx. decade that they have had playoff success... IMO, they deserve to be able to spend it now if they wish to - more than the Canucks can afford, and more than EDM can afford...

 

[kerrly]

It was this guy ^^^^^^^

 

[me2]

COL traded good assets for Blake and Bourque. Thats not buying a cup.

Blake was a rental who was a UFA-to-be. The rented him for a playoff run then threw money at him as was about to be a UFA. They didn't give picks and prospects for a long term assest. Its not a case of picking up a young player with 3 years of contract left.

Without money these moves don't get made. Moves poorer teams can't make. Money provided a solution to a problem.

right .. so why all the debate ?

Oh, a few little things like lockout, a salary cap, a luxury tax. If there was no problem with the above system we'd be playing today.

 

[vanlady]

For those of you that support this lockout going as long as it takes here are a few very good reasons the owners are getting nervous.

1. On Bob McCown Prime Time Sports today, he interviewed Bruce Rivell(sp) of espn.com business section. Mr. Rivell was talking about interviews he has had with bankers who finance pro sports. According to him there are US franchises that thanks to this lockout are in such peril that the banks are refusing to refinance them at the end of the lockout. Translation those franchises are about to sink.

2. Reebok is launching a new hockey line. Reebok has invested over 500 million in R and D and marketing and without the NHL is losing money monthly because they can't move merchandise. Reebok one of the NHL's big sponsors is NOT happy.

3. Fox sports controls 20 of 26 US teams local broadcast rights. They just signed a deal with Arena Football to fill the air time left by hockey. The VP in charge of NHL for Fox sports said it would be a scheduling nightmare if the NHL were to come back. If you were Mike Ilitch right now would you be sweating that Arena Football will compete and reduce the value of your regional broadcast contract? There are 20 teams that must be thinking along those lines.

Add to all this the huge drop in merchandise sales would you start to panic if you were an owner, I would.

 

[me2]

That depends on the individual team success, IMO...

From my point-of-view, if Ottawa doesn't go far in the playoffs for a few steady years (and reap the rewards of playoff revenue over a consistent amount of time) then they don't deserve to keep their team together as is indefinitely...

IMO, it would be a sign of a problem if they consistently go far in the playoffs year-after-year (accumulating wealth), and then they can't afford to keep their team together - which they deserve to keep together... assuming that management doesn't waste this accumulating wealth on expensive UFAs - and use the money to keep together the aging core together instead...

If the Canucks consistently get knocked out of the 1st round of the playoffs, IMO, we don't deserve to be able to afford to keep our core together...

IMO, Detroit and Colorodo deserve to have a competitive advantage... They've accumulated wealth over the approx. decade that they have had playoff success... IMO, they deserve to be able to spend it now if they wish to - more than the Canucks can afford, and more than EDM can afford...

But what about teams that unlike Colorado or Detroit have big payrolls and yet have struggled in the playoffs? Have they deserved it through success?

 

[John Flyers Fan]

For those of you that support this lockout going as long as it takes here are a few very good reasons the owners are getting nervous.

1. On Bob McCown Prime Time Sports today, he interviewed Bruce Rivell(sp) of espn.com business section. Mr. Rivell was talking about interviews he has had with bankers who finance pro sports. According to him there are US franchises that thanks to this lockout are in such peril that the banks are refusing to refinance them at the end of the lockout. Translation those franchises are about to sink.

Likely Darren Rovell, ESPN's lead Sports Business writer.

 

[vanlady]

Likely Darren Rovell, ESPN's lead Sports Business writer.

Sorry you are correct, didn't catch his introduction as my kids were just getting home, but was blown away with what he had to say.

 

[I in the Eye]

It was this guy ^^^^^^^

This guy has a name

 

[Brent Burns Beard]

Blake was a rental who was a UFA-to-be. The rented him for a playoff run then threw money at him as was about to be a UFA. They didn't give picks and prospects for a long term assest. Its not a case of picking up a young player with 3 years of contract left.

Without money these moves don't get made. Moves poorer teams can't make. Money provided a solution to a problem.

so you prefer a system where one team with the pending UFA cant even trade him to get something before he leaves ?

COL traded good long term assets for a gamble on Blake. thats not buying a player or a cup.

IMO of course.

DR

 

[kerrly]

For those of you that support this lockout going as long as it takes here are a few very good reasons the owners are getting nervous.

1. On Bob McCown Prime Time Sports today, he interviewed Bruce Rivell(sp) of espn.com business section. Mr. Rivell was talking about interviews he has had with bankers who finance pro sports. According to him there are US franchises that thanks to this lockout are in such peril that the banks are refusing to refinance them at the end of the lockout. Translation those franchises are about to sink.

2. Reebok is launching a new hockey line. Reebok has invested over 500 million in R and D and marketing and without the NHL is losing money monthly because they can't move merchandise. Reebok one of the NHL's big sponsors is NOT happy.

3. Fox sports controls 20 of 26 US teams local broadcast rights. They just signed a deal with Arena Football to fill the air time left by hockey. The VP in charge of NHL for Fox sports said it would be a scheduling nightmare if the NHL were to come back. If you were Mike Ilitch right now would you be sweating that Arena Football will compete and reduce the value of your regional broadcast contract? There are 20 teams that must be thinking along those lines.

Add to all this the huge drop in merchandise sales would you start to panic if you were an owner, I would.

I think we all realised that the NHL was going to feel the heat from somewhere eventually. I had no idea that some markets in the US were in such trouble, well we knew there was trouble, but none thought this much. But wouldn't that make these teams push the NHL to get the best deal possible for them?

 

[kerrly]

This guy has a name

Sorry Floyd.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

For those of you that support this lockout going as long as it takes here are a few very good reasons the owners are getting nervous.

1. On Bob McCown Prime Time Sports today, he interviewed Bruce Rivell(sp) of espn.com business section. Mr. Rivell was talking about interviews he has had with bankers who finance pro sports. According to him there are US franchises that thanks to this lockout are in such peril that the banks are refusing to refinance them at the end of the lockout. Translation those franchises are about to sink.

you are kidding me?? yikes, thats big trouble...what teams are we thinking here? Pittsburgh? Atlanta? Nashville? Phoenix?

not good for these American teams

 

[Brent Burns Beard]

2. Reebok is launching a new hockey line. Reebok has invested over 500 million in R and D and marketing and without the NHL is losing money monthly because they can't move merchandise. Reebok one of the NHL's big sponsors is NOT happy.

in fairness ... too f'ng bad for Reebok. who asked them to invest 500m to launch a product as a lockout was looming.

if they didnt know their prime vehicle was about to be in a shutdown, whats their excuse ? did they not spend a little bit of that RESEARCH budget on knowing that the NHL was about to scorch itself ?

however, if they are inclined to pressure the owners, thats good.

dr

 

[I in the Eye]

But what about teams that unlike Colorado or Detroit have big payrolls and yet have struggled in the playoffs? Have they deserved it through success?

Nope... but I don't think that they have hampered the Canucks having more success... If anything, IMO, it can be argued that Columbus blocked our success more than Toronto ('stealing' Cassels and Lachance)...

At the same time, I'm all for changes to make the NHL environment easier to operate in... I just don't believe that a hard cap is a 'need-to-have' feature... Definitely a 'nice-to-have', but IMO, not a 'need-to-have' - especially at the very high cost that is likely needed to get it implemented...

IMO, the competent GMs will find success in any NHL environment - and the incompetent GMs won't...

 

[kerrly]

in fairness ... too f'ng bad for Reebok. who asked them to invest 500m to launch a product as a lockout was looming.

if they didnt know their prime vehicle was about to be in a shutdown, whats their excuse ? did they not spend a little bit of that RESEARCH budget on knowing that the NHL was about to scorch itself ?

however, if they are inclined to pressure the owners, thats good.

dr

I also have to agree with your point of view as well. Good point.