Our Second Line Conundrum.
- Thread starter Freakshow
- Start date
I generally agree with this. Hodgson had defensive weaknesses but there is no reason to say that he can't work on those and his skating. His offence is way above Schroeder. The goal he scored against Tim Thomas last year had Thomas do a double take. I think that he has at least a decent NHL career ahead of him.
Full disclosure: I've watched only three or four Wolves' games this year but Schroeder's offensive numbers in the AHL make me wonder if he can get to the next level. I'm not going to write off a young prospect but I would have been more confident if he had really lit it up in the AHL after a pretty disappointing camp last year. I think that he needs another year in the AHL to show that he can play in the dirty areas and play hard every night while putting up better numbers.
Barney Gumble
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- Jan 2, 2007
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Since you quoted me, can you find where I personally said Schroeder was noticeably better in terms of "offensively gifted" than Hodgson? All I said that it appeared to me from actually watching him play that he was a better defensive player at the professional level than Hodgson is right now. That kind of player seems to be a better fit for the coach of this team.
Is he really scoring at a noticeable rate lower than Hodgson was at the AHL level? Sure, Hodgson is putting up points at a PPG now, but his current AHL team is more offensively talented than the current Wolves roster. Schroeder isn't getting "prime minutes" on the Wolves.
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If AV can find another player beyond the 1st line to score 20 goals and 40 points in "sheltered minutes", then I suggest he does it pronto.
Lapierre? Malhotra? Ebbet? Schroeder? Are one of these players capable of putting up those numbers?
"Sheltered minutes" or not, the Canucks could certainly use a player like Hodgson about now.
As that's not possible, it's up to Gillis to find more offence. This team will not score enough to win in the playoffs, and that's even when Kesler and Booth are healthy.
If Mason Raymond suddenly rediscovers his 25 goal form, and Schroeder is able to score at a better rate in the NHL than he does in the AHL, maybe they'll be OK, but I'm not holding my breath.
You must be remembering wrong because Schroeder outproduced Hodgson last camp, as well as outplayed him defensively.
struckmatch
Registered User
I do watch the Wolves.
Here is as far as I need to go with this...
Cody Hodgson 41 points. Almost 20 goals in the NHL. 22 Assists in the NHL.
Jordan Schroeder 19 points in 31 games in the AHL. 9 goals. 10 Assists in the AHL.
Is this freaking discussion actually happening right now?
Do you guys know the difference between the AHL and NHL?
Please tell me where that illustrates to you better offensive playmaking and offensive talent on the part of Schroeder? Does he do double axels down in Chicago or something?
Wow.
Fact: Cody Hodgson, when in the Canucks system did not light up the AHL.
IMO Schroeder looked far more dangerous in camp last year than Hodgson.
Schroeder is a skilled player, I don't think its fair to compare either guy ATM, and Cody Hodgson's slap shot is amazing, but I wouldn't say having a great slapper makes you 'more gifted'.
I'd sure like to see what Schroeder can do with sheltered minutes (although he won't need them like Cody, because he is an excellent skater) and his own PP unit.
I'd expect similar point totals.
Fair enough. What is your view on his AHL production?
I really want him to succeed but I have heard that he needs to play more in the dirty areas rather than the perimeter. Most smaller players who make the NHL play with an intensity and a bit of a chip on their shoulders every single night. I haven't see that from Schroeder in admittedly limited viewing. I see him as at least a year away but I would love to be pleaasantly surprised.
Barney Gumble
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- Jan 2, 2007
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It IS an issue for the team right now though - as he wouldn't be getting those "sheltered minutes" now because of injuries to the team. Again, he failed to produce when given a more prominent role and better linemates in Buffalo - to the point Ruff shoved him further down the lineup. And that Sabres team was on a roll after the trading deadline. Was it a case of adjusting to a new team? Maybe, but he's hardly a proven player either which is what all I was saying.
Maybe it's better to take this away from a Cody vs Schroeder discussion then.
Honest question. Based on what he has done in the AHL do you think Schroeder is ready to play for the Canucks. I see him as at least a year away but I'm hoping that I'm wrong.
Well, for one Schroeder hasn't had a shot to perform at the NHL level, so the basis for comparing their numbers isn't there.
Compare their AHL seasons in the same system:
Hodgson with Moose: 17 goals, 30 points, in 52 games....that is 0.57 PPG
Schroeder with the Wolves last year (which would be comparable to Hodgson's season with the Moose due to draft year) 21 goals, 44 points.....or 0.57ppg.
struckmatch
Registered User
Schroeder hasn't been given a chance because he was beat out by Hodgson BADLY for the spot last year in training camp.
This really is surprising to me.
I don't think that is true as I was remembering the camp before that where he was sent back early. See below:
"Canucks coach Alain Vigneault heaped praise on small forward Jordan Schroeder for having a much better camp and preseason than he did a year ago when he was abruptly sent to the minors after just two preseason games. Schroeder had 1-2-3 — tied for the team lead in preseason scoring – and was a minus-2 in three games.
“Schroeder played much better than in last year’s training camp,” said Vigneault. “I liked the way he positioned himself away from the puck, how he handled that. His next step is to dominate in the AHL. When people ask who is one of the better two-way offensive players, his name has got to come up. If he intends to play at this level one day, that’s the step he’s got to make. He’s not an overly big player, but he compensates with skill and speed.”
The bolded part is what really concerns me.
Barney Gumble
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- Jan 2, 2007
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I saw things differently. Neither player looked THAT great & for what was needed, a defensively responsible center - I saw Schroeder outplaying Hodgson for that role.
mossey3535
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- Feb 7, 2011
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I think it's a concern that Shroeder has never played at PPG level in the AHL. No, CoHo was not markedly better with our system either but this year he was PPG player in the AHL with the Americans.
I go over and read the Sabres boards since Cody has been traded. They seem happy with him on both ends.
All this is a moot point because CoHo is gone. We HAVE Shroeder and we HAVE Kassian. Those guys need to play 13-15 minutes this year if we want to find out what they can do. Those AHL numbers don't mean anything until we play them, and play them in pressure situations.
Training camp means very little in terms of being able to handle the entire schedule. My problem with this team is that we've consistently failed to find out what these rookies can do.
If this team is the juggernaut that it is often made out to be, there is no reason why we'd have to protect these kids to the degree that we have. not only that, but this is a perfect situation in which we almost don't have a choice - throw them into the fire and see what they're made of.
I go over and read the Sabres boards since Cody has been traded. They seem happy with him on both ends.
All this is a moot point because CoHo is gone. We HAVE Shroeder and we HAVE Kassian. Those guys need to play 13-15 minutes this year if we want to find out what they can do. Those AHL numbers don't mean anything until we play them, and play them in pressure situations.
Training camp means very little in terms of being able to handle the entire schedule. My problem with this team is that we've consistently failed to find out what these rookies can do.
If this team is the juggernaut that it is often made out to be, there is no reason why we'd have to protect these kids to the degree that we have. not only that, but this is a perfect situation in which we almost don't have a choice - throw them into the fire and see what they're made of.
me2
Go ahead foot
Whether or not Cody can turn around his defensive play will depend on how much he's been able to improve his skating.
mossey3535
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- Feb 7, 2011
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Yeah me too. For the same reason, though? I think they should play those guys. No reason to send them back down to the AHL without giving them a whirl first.
mossey3535
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- Feb 7, 2011
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You say "sheltered minutes", I say "limited minutes". I believe Hodgson would have produced more here last season given more opportunity. It didn't work out for him in Buffalo right away, but it's not unusual for players to struggle with a new team.
Certainly, I think he would a better fit at 2nd line centre than anybody currently on the roster. Nothing can be done about that now, though.
The fact still remains, in my opinion, this team needs to find more players capable of generating offence.
Schroeder this season led the Wolves in ES scoring despite carrying his own line. He played exactly 6 (2 to start, then 4 to end) games with Kassian all year. Mostly he played with studs like Sweatt, Rodin, Haydar, etc. who still haven't cracked 10 ES points this year.
By comparison, Ebbett has put up only 2 more points and 2 less goals despite playing most of the season with Sterling and Kassian, as well as being force-fed 1st PP unit time.
Schroeder has scored more goals per game than Hodgson despite playing on a weaker, less offensively talented team. He has scored more ES points per game than Hodgson. Considering Hodgson is supposed to be the better goal scorer this seems like a pretty good performance by JS.
And I just wanted to address the perimeter player tag — I don't know who told you that but I don't think anyone that has watched the Wolves consistently (thefeebster or orcatown are welcome to chime in if I'm wrong) would call Schroeder that. Hell, they've scored 2 goals this year with him as the net presence
laugh. He's not afraid of getting hit or play getting physical. He finishes his checks — maybe it doesn't hurt, but he still does it.This went somewhat underreported, but in exit meetings Henning, MacT, and AV told Schroeder that he deserved a call-up last season and didn't get one only because of circumstances. They were very happy with his season.
He wasn't even marginally better, that's the issue, they produced at the same level, at the same stage of development in the same situation.
Food for though...Rochester as a team has scored 33 more goals than the wolves this year. Maybe they have better players, maybe their system is better for scoring.
If we want to delve into their performance, maybe a statistical analysis of their points should be made in comparison to how much their team scores.
Just a quick look shows Schroeder has points on 21% of Chicago's goals, Hodgson has points on 15% of Rochesters (and stats suck because Cody's only played 19 games)....but that should show you his importance to the team, and how he's performing in comparison to his surroundings.
Schroeder this season led the Wolves in ES scoring despite carrying his own line. He played exactly 5 games with Kassian all year. Mostly he played with studs like Sweatt, Rodin, Haydar, etc. who still haven't cracked 10 ES points this year.
By comparison, Ebbett has put up only 2 more points and 2 less goals despite playing most of the season with Sterling and Kassian, as well as being force-fed 1st PP unit time.
Schroeder has scored more goals per game than Hodgson despite playing on a weaker, less offensively talented team. He has scored more ES points per game than Hodgson.
And I just wanted to address the perimeter player tag — I don't know who told you that but I don't think anyone that has watched the Wolves consistently (thefeebster or orcatown are welcome to chime in if I'm wrong) would call Schroeder that. Hell, they've scored 2 goals this year with him as the net presence
The perimeter player comment came from Ferraro this morning who said that he needs to play more between the dots as with the skating and size of defencemen he will get stuck to the perimeter. I'm not sure whether Ray has actually seen him play much or is just repeating what he heard.
I know that Chicago is not loaded with offensive talent and the numbers may be skewed but to be honest the earlier benching also concerns me. As an undesrized player he is going to need to play full out every night.
As I said, I'll be pulling for him to make it and have some success. My expectations at this point though based on what he's done to date are pretty modest.
It's definitely hi-jacked the thread, but the poster who was bolding and capitalizing his opinions created some discussion.
I'm going to do my best to avoid discussing CH.
If we're going to compare him to Hodgson:
1) His team has scored 33 more goals (that's an extra goal per game) and they have the 2nd best PP in the AHL.
2) He has 11 of his 19 points on the PP. That's on pace for 2 less ES points than Schroeder.
3) He has 5 goals, 2 of them on the PP and 1 SH. 2 ES goals to Schroeder's 8...
1) His team has scored 33 more goals (that's an extra goal per game) and they have the 2nd best PP in the AHL.
2) He has 11 of his 19 points on the PP. That's on pace for 2 less ES points than Schroeder.
3) He has 5 goals, 2 of them on the PP and 1 SH. 2 ES goals to Schroeder's 8...
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