OHL - Defected Players

[knowescape]

There has been an interesting discussion going on in the London 2015-16 thread concerning the fact that the OHL draft is no longer a level playing field. Top ranked players know they can refuse to report and be deemed "Defected" in favor of joining team more of their choosing.

The conversation started here (click on the little red dot after DirtyGino's name to follow the discussion that ensued). Should the OHL require prospects to indicate their intention to play in the league and be bound to report to the team they are drafted to? Should defected players be ineligible to play in the OHL for the year they were drafted and be subject to drafting the next year with the same provisions (teams are still compensated with a draft pick for the defected player).

Every team has the same opportunity to draft good players. The only advantage I see with the Knights is that due to their track record and success they're able to attract a wide range of players. This team is known for producing great NHL talent. I feel like there is a long list of players who would jump at the chance to play here. Can't say the same for places like North Bay, Sudbury and Owen Sound.
Any team has a chance to have a strong fan base but you can't expect fans to flock to an old building to watch a bottom feeder team. Even when the knights have a mid pack team (not often) the arena isn't a sell out. A good team with a couple high caliber players who fans know will be in the NHL in a few years is a major ticket seller.

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[Konrad]

Two questions .. Is it really that much of an issue that changes are required ?
(I mean maybe one or two of the top players use this to their advantage so no biggie)

And secondly...is that the Ice Dog logo in the pupil ?
I can't stop staring back !!

 

[knowescape]

Two questions .. Is it really that much of an issue that changes are required ?
(I mean maybe one or two of the top players use this to their advantage so no biggie)

And secondly...is that the Ice Dog logo in the pupil ?
I can't stop staring back !!

We have a new generation of entitled youngsters coming up. When Logan Brown was drafted by Niagara he refused to report and cited his preference to play for a Western Conference team as they were closer to his home in St. Louis, MO (Windsor is 400 km closer than St. Catharines). Agents are pretty savvy and it will soon get to the point where high flyers choose their team rather than the other way round. Should the league step in to level this playing field or could it devolve to the point where top prospects will demand to play only for top teams (the rich get richer and the poor stay poor)?

And yes, Bones is watching you too -creepy huh?

 

[EvenSteven]

The OHL wants to be the best league possible so that they can send as many players as possible to the pros. In order to do that, they have to have the best players possible to provide the best competition possible. They will do whatever it takes to get the best players to report to the league. That started with the "Lindros" rule being implemented and so on and so on until we have the rules we do today.

If that means that some players be allowed to dictate where they will or won't play, then so be it. All the league can do is institute rules to see to it that the so called "have not" teams where most of these players won't report to can be compensated in some manner to give them the the best shot at competing with the so-called "have" teams. I think the current rules in place concerning defective players best does that.

Kingston is a lot better off today having dealt Max Domi to London under today's rules than they were a few years when they drafted Wes O'Neill in the first round in hopes they'd force him to report, only to have him play in another league and get virtually nothing for his rights. I think they got a 4th round pick from Windsor a couple years later but O'Neill never did come to the league. He was in the conversation as going 1st overall in his OHL draft year. This was considered a big loss for the OHL. Had the Fronts been able to list him as a defective player under the rules of today, they'd have been a lot better off and the league would have been able to have yet another premier player in it's league.

You'll not see any rule implemented any time soon that will lead to players opting out of an OHL career because they are forced to play in certain markets.

 

[EvenSteven]

We have a new generation of entitled youngsters coming up. When Logan Brown was drafted by Niagara he refused to report and cited his preference to play for a Western Conference team as they were closer to his home in St. Louis, MO (Windsor is 400 km closer than St. Catharines). Agents are pretty savvy and it will soon get to the point where high flyers choose their team rather than the other way round. Should the league step in to level this playing field or could it devolve to the point where top prospects will demand to play only for top teams (the rich get richer and the poor stay poor)?

And yes, Bones is watching you too -creepy huh?

Players dictating where they will and won't play has been going on for a long time now. Decades. It's getting more and more prevalent as the years go on. It's not only a few players. The majority of high end players with options (ie NCAA opportunities) let it be known pre draft where they won't report to.

Bert Templeton talked of this when he was coaching in Sudbury. He was asked why he passed over many high end players to select a player ranked in the second round with his high first round draft pick. Getting letter after letter after letter from these players saying not to draft them because they won't be reporting. I still remember his quote, "Of course I take Evan McGrath with my first pick. But he notified us he wouldn't report." His felt hands were tied.

The current defective player rule was brought in to aid situations like this one.

 

[OMG67]

We have a new generation of entitled youngsters coming up. When Logan Brown was drafted by Niagara he refused to report and cited his preference to play for a Western Conference team as they were closer to his home in St. Louis, MO (Windsor is 400 km closer than St. Catharines). Agents are pretty savvy and it will soon get to the point where high flyers choose their team rather than the other way round. Should the league step in to level this playing field or could it devolve to the point where top prospects will demand to play only for top teams (the rich get richer and the poor stay poor)?

And yes, Bones is watching you too -creepy huh?

Do you think the top 5 teams all pick the best available player? I'd say at least 2 of them do not. They pick the best available player that will report.

This goes much further than the defected players. I know that there are only one or two per year but that is only because teams don't pick best available. If all teams pick the best available, there'd be at least 5 or 6 players per year not reporting.

 

[knowescape]

Players dictating where they will and won't play has been going on for a long time now. Decades. It's getting more and more prevalent as the years go on. It's not only a few players. The majority of high end players with options (ie NCAA opportunities) let it be known pre draft where they won't report to.

NCAA options are one thing, but the OHL still has its allure for a large number of players who perhaps aren't academically inclined or want the NHL style schedule

Bert Templeton talked of this when he was coaching in Sudbury. He was asked why he passed over many high end players to select a player ranked in the second round with his high first round draft pick. Getting letter after letter after letter from these players saying not to draft them because they won't be reporting. I still remember his quote, "Of course I take Evan McGrath with my first pick. But he notified us he wouldn't report." His felt hands were tied.

I would love to see a team draft a number one player, take the compensatory pick then sit on the player's rights for a year.

The current defective player rule was brought in to aid situations like this one.

I would encourage team owners to draft the best players and play the game hard because the current loophole is bound to be exploited. Imagine a draft where the top five players all decide to play for one team?

 

[knowescape]

Do you think the top 5 teams all pick the best available player? I'd say at least 2 of them do not. They pick the best available player that will report.

I believe the OHL has as good or better product and the threat of NCAA is just that. Not every player is scholastically inclined despite their assertions to the contrary. Allowing players to choose their teams devalues the league as a whole.

If a team passes over a top prospect because (a) they thought someone else was better, or (b) they didn't want the hassle of dealing with a prima donna who wanted to play elsewhere - that's on them. I am thinking of a hard-working team that is trying to rebuild and has a great product in a smaller market - so they win the draft but they can't get a first-rounder to report, versus a team that finishes top five every year and has prospects knocking down their door.

 

[OMG67]

I believe the OHL has as good or better product and the threat of NCAA is just that. Not every player is scholastically inclined despite their assertions to the contrary. Allowing players to choose their teams devalues the league as a whole.

If a team passes over a top prospect because (a) they thought someone else was better, or (b) they didn't want the hassle of dealing with a prima donna who wanted to play elsewhere - that's on them. I am thinking of a hard-working team that is trying to rebuild and has a great product in a smaller market - so they win the draft but they can't get a first-rounder to report, versus a team that finishes top five every year and has prospects knocking down their door.

The system will never be set up to allow for a "small market" team to be on even ground with the high profile franchises. It is a simple fact. No matter what rules are in place, nothing will change that.

Even if a player signs a form that states they will make themselves eligible to any team, good luck enforcing it. They are 16 years old. They will always have the right to not play in the OHL. They will still use the NCAA card as leverage. Franchises will then have to roll the dice.

At least now, teams get a really good package if a player does not report. That helps even the playing field but don't ever think the field is totally even. There will always be a slant.

The 67's passed on drafting McLeod who was the best available player because he would not report to Ottawa. They were going to draft him anyway and take the comp but they decided to pick Barron instead. Even large market teams get screwed now and then.

 

[knowescape]

The system will never be set up to allow for a "small market" team to be on even ground with the high profile franchises. It is a simple fact. No matter what rules are in place, nothing will change that.

So it is ok that the bottom 15 teams will lose out to the top five every time? Isn't it all one league where the owners have a say? If there is no competition then there is no development. If there is no development then NHL teams will source their players elsewhere.

 

[Otto]

We have a new generation of entitled youngsters coming up. When Logan Brown was drafted by Niagara he refused to report and cited his preference to play for a Western Conference team as they were closer to his home in St. Louis, MO (Windsor is 400 km closer than St. Catharines). Agents are pretty savvy and it will soon get to the point where high flyers choose their team rather than the other way round. Should the league step in to level this playing field or could it devolve to the point where top prospects will demand to play only for top teams (the rich get richer and the poor stay poor)?

And yes, Bones is watching you too -creepy huh?

a handful of players in 20 odd years does it and it's a "new generation of entitled players"?

 

[GangGreen]

So it is ok that the bottom 15 teams will lose out to the top five every time? Isn't it all one league where the owners have a say? If there is no competition then there is no development. If there is no development then NHL teams will source their players elsewhere.

You act like there is no parity in the League. How many different champions have there been the last 15 years? 10?

 

[knowescape]

a handful of players in 20 odd years does it and it's a "new generation of entitled players"?

I have a day job, trust me it's a new generation out there. We are still not counting the players that smaller market teams by-passed for fear of non-reporting.

 

[knowescape]

You act like there is no parity in the League. How many different champions have there been the last 15 years? 10?

How many teams have been champions (or challengers) a few times? Of course there isn't parity!

 

[Otto]

I have a day job, trust me it's a new generation out there. We are still not counting the players that smaller market teams by-passed for fear of non-reporting.

You're missing the point. It's happened for years. Eric Lindros refused to report to the Soo. I am sure people said the same thing back then. There is not going to be a wide-spread group of up and coming players that refuse to report, it'll be a one-off situation next year, 5 years from now and 10 years from now.

Changing the league rules for 0.02% of it's players makes no sense (1 player / (20 teams x 23 players per team) It's akin to having an entire school stay after class because one kid threw a snowball at a teacher

 

[knowescape]

You're missing the point. It's happened for years. Eric Lindros refused to report to the Soo. I am sure people said the same thing back then. There is not going to be a wide-spread group of up and coming players that refuse to report, it'll be a one-off situation next year, 5 years from now and 10 years from now.

Changing the league rules for 0.02% of it's players makes no sense (1 player / (20 teams x 23 players per team) It's akin to having an entire school stay after class because one kid threw a snowball at a teacher

You're missing the point. It isn't just the defected players that count, but the ones who use the threat of defection too. If I am the GM of a team and I need a warm body 1st rounder this year, why do I have to hopscotch down five pick because compensatory picks don't arrive until next year. It may seem like a low percentage to you (10 or so out of 300 draft picks) but these are the most coveted and can change a franchise

 

[dirty12]

I can't recall an instance that I would say a team lost by decaring a player defected. The waiting one year excuse is not a good one. Flint could have used the 3(2nds) & 2(3rds) to acquire an immediate top player; then still have 2(1st) & comp 2nd this draft.
Last season essentially flipped Brown for Hosang.
The reason there will not be 5-10 defected players is because there are never 5-10 such players worth declaring defected.

 

[Otto]

How many teams have been champions (or challengers) a few times? Of course there isn't parity!

In the last 10 seasons 15 different teams have been represented in the finals. Is there another league out there that has had 74% of it's teams appear in the finals over a 10 year span?

Those who haven't:
Kingston
Sarnia
Ottawa
Saginaw
Sault Ste Marie

 

[Otto]

If I am the GM of a team and I need a warm body 1st rounder this year, why do I have to hopscotch down five pick because compensatory picks don't arrive until next year. It may seem like a low percentage to you (10 or so out of 300 draft picks) but these are the most coveted and can change a franchise

Because you're a crappy GM and can't build a program in which players want to play

 

[knowescape]

Because you're a crappy GM and can't build a program in which players want to play

Good one, name calling. Ok, case in point Logan Brown, drafted by Niagara first round refused to report. Reason: preferred to play in the West due to its proximity to home. Niagara didn't have a crappy GM just happened to be 400km farther away from St. Louis.

 

[dirty12]

Good one, name calling. Ok, case in point Logan Brown, drafted by Niagara first round refused to report. Reason: preferred to play in the West due to its proximity to home. Niagara didn't have a crappy GM just happened to be 400km farther away from St. Louis.

Niagara drafted Brown because they knew he would not report. That GM has done this in Barrie and twice in 3 or 4 years in Niagara. In fact, Williams? essentially acquired a more immediate impact player in Hosang for Brown for 2 playoff drives and fast tracked his rebuild by having 2 '99 born first rounders with play off experience to build around.

 

[Tigers1992]

Niagara drafted Brown because they knew he would not report. That GM has done this in Barrie and twice in 3 or 4 years in Niagara. In fact, Williams? essentially acquired a more immediate impact player in Hosang for Brown for 2 playoff drives and fast tracked his rebuild by having 2 '99 born first rounders with play off experience to build around.

I've mentioned that twice in the London thread, but he doesn't seem to want to touch that aspect of it. Brown deal to Windsor was done before the draft. Niagara made an attempt to sign him, because they have to, but Brown's destination was determined.

 

[knowescape]

Niagara drafted Brown because they knew he would not report. That GM has done this in Barrie and twice in 3 or 4 years in Niagara. In fact, Williams? essentially acquired a more immediate impact player in Hosang for Brown for 2 playoff drives and fast tracked his rebuild by having 2 '99 born first rounders with play off experience to build around.

So if you aren't "going for it" as a GM you should swing for the fences and draft a player who won't report so you can load up picks for years to come.

 

[Tigers1992]

I would love to see a team draft a number one player, take the compensatory pick then sit on the player's rights for a year.

The rules state that you can only have the compensation pick if and when you declare the player defected and either trade him or release him, you can't have both the player and the pick.

 

[dirty12]

I've mentioned that twice in the London thread, but he doesn't seem to want to touch that aspect of it. Brown deal to Windsor was done before the draft. Niagara made an attempt to sign him, because they have to, but Brown's destination was determined.

Agreed. Seems obvious, blantantly using the rule to an advantage