Speculation: Offseason coaching thread: Should they stay or should they go?

[TimmyD]

Oh sure. Like he's allowed.

I mean…is he allowed? I know you were probably half joking here, but are we sure he’s actually allowed to fire Sullivan? Because I’m not so sure he can

 

[Darren McCord]

I wonder how much power dubas actually has over sullivan if this is the case. Does FSG see Sullivan as having as much control as Dubas.

I bet Sullivan has a huge ego and head since he was hired by FSG not Dubas.

This is why I want to give Dubas another offseason. I think he was told to work with Sullivan and not be his boss. Sullivan is such a parasite on this franchise right now.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I guess I just don't think there's any genuine threat of Sid or Geno asking out or being shoved out the door regardless of what the team does or doesn't so. If we're this far into the spiral and they're still spouting cliches about how much they believe and how committed they are--well.

And we've talked a lot about the whole parasocial connection thing to athletes and how weird I find it, so there's no need to rehash.

I'm not talking about what they will/won't do. I'm talking about what some people think is the best idea. I don't agree. Blowing it all up in a blaze of glory might seem entertaining since we're all bored. I get it. But it's hardly some sure-fire method... especially these days. I feel like there were teams "rebuilding" their entire existence until they were finally moved/retracted.

I just don't see what putting Sid and Malkin through absolute intentional misery until they relent and leave/retire early really does for this team. It'll be over soon enough and then we can totally start drafting all these great players ya'll are so excited about.

 

[Andy99]

I wonder how much power dubas actually has over sullivan if this is the case. Does FSG see Sullivan as having as much control as Dubas.

I bet Sullivan has a huge ego and head since he was hired by FSG not Dubas.

This is why I want to give Dubas another offseason. I think he was told to work with Sullivan and not be his boss. Sullivan is such a parasite on this franchise right now.

Yeah, a power struggle suggests two equal parties when really there should be Dubas and the coach under him…no struggle lol

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I mean…is he allowed? I know you were probably half joking here, but are we sure he’s actually allowed to fire Sullivan? Because I’m not so sure he can

I agree with the notion that it would be bizarre in the extreme to pursue Dubas so heavily and pay him so handsomely only to be like "oh BTW you can't fire the coach for at least four season lol OK good luck!"

But who knows. This organization has a bunch of screws loose these days.

 

[TimmyD]

I mean if that report is true and Dubas wants to at least fire the assistant coaches but Sullivan is resisting that change then all Dubas has to do is kick him out the door with them. Like if you have control of a company and you have an employee that is refusing your direct order you fire them. It’s pretty simple. The fact that he hasn’t done that leads me to believe he’s not allowed… especially considering the guy who would be his preferred target is about to be fired once Toronto gets eliminated… something here just smells fishy to me

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I mean if that report is true and Dubas wants to at least fire the assistant coaches but Sullivan is resisting that change then all Dubas has to do is kick him out the door with them. Like if you have control of a company and you have an employee that is refusing your direct order you fire them. It’s pretty simple. The fact that he hasn’t done that leads me to believe he’s not allowed… especially considering the guy who would be his preferred target is about to be fired once Toronto gets eliminated… something here just smells fishy to me

Yeah there's the rub, though.

Sports journalism is basically just a giant click-farm, anymore. Especially for fringe sports like hockey.

 

[66-30-33]

Dubas: We need to let go of your assistants.
sully: NOOOOO!!!! I will quit and coach the Devils if you do that!
Dubas: Ok fine they are staying, we can't afford to lose you...you mean so much for this team, we have won so much with you here unlike what HFBoards think.
sully: Cool beans, now let's re-sign Harkins and bring back Zar!

 

[Gurglesons]

I guess I just don't think there's any genuine threat of Sid or Geno asking out or being shoved out the door regardless of what the team does or doesn't so. If we're this far into the spiral and they're still spouting cliches about how much they believe and how committed they are--well.

And we've talked a lot about the whole parasocial connection thing to athletes and how weird I find it, so there's no need to rehash.

We are one point off the playoff in two consecutive years right? Or were we 3 this year?

 

[Andy99]

I read a lot of Dubas’ comments about Sullivan this past year as him letting us know he can’t fire the coach: besides the “you’ll be looking for Sullivan”, remember it’s “low hanging fruit” to fire the coach when the team performs poorly? Lol…but some people can’t entertain how a guy would take $40M to be prez here without ability to fire the asst VP lol…I can

 

[GilbertSeinfeld]

As long as Sullivan has assistants he knows won't be able to replace him, he's going to continue to want to keep them.

Plus, since he's never to blame, his lesser assistants will get the blame.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I'm not talking about what they will/won't do. I'm talking about what some people think is the best idea. I don't agree. Blowing it all up in a blaze of glory might seem entertaining since we're all bored. I get it. But it's hardly some sure-fire method... especially these days. I feel like there were teams "rebuilding" their entire existence until they were finally moved/retracted.

I just don't see what putting Sid and Malkin through absolute intentional misery until they relent and leave/retire early really does for this team. It'll be over soon enough and then we can totally start drafting all these great players ya'll are so excited about.

FWIW, I ninja edited a bit at the end of my last post right before you posted this. The era's legacy is cemented. With the "win now at all costs" approach, the end was always gonna be ugly. Though it shouldn't have been this ugly, but the team's full of dipshits in important positions so here we are. Years of spending premium assets chasing 3rd liners, over emphasis on 4th liners, and loyalty to a fraud coach got 'em here. No way out now, so it's either more of this bullshit you and I frequently bitch about and outright don't watch, or the team can actually start to do something to work toward competing again; either while Sid's still playing or with a longer term view in mind.

As for the bolded; we're long past that, this team's already there, the team's just not getting those picks/prospects. They're losing for no reason, there's no silver lining. It's just tedium, resentfulness and apathy until Sid gets his final shot at Olympic gold alongside MacKinnon, Marchand, and McDavid, since that's the last chance he'll ever have for any kind of success while playing hockey. They've got Drew O'Connor on Sid's wing. They've been giving Geno objective losers like Kapanen, McGinn, and a dude like Reilly Smith who was probably counting down the minutes until the end of the season from some time in November onward.

We are one point off the playoff in two consecutive years.

Who cares? This team couldn't beat two actively tanking teams at the extreme bottom of the standings in do-or-die situations to make the dance last year. They needed an improbable, red hot 10 game streak to even be in the discussion this year. A handful of worsening seasons capped off by missing twice and they still can't figure out (or seem to care) what the problems are.

Half the league makes the playoffs. It's not a big accomplishment. A terrible Caps team just did it and then got shitcanned immediately. And after all that, this team is so dysfunctional that they can't even manage that, and their refusal to make changes means they're more fine with the way of things than any of us. /shrug

I read a lot of Dubas’ comments about Sullivan this past year as him letting us know he can’t fire the coach: besides the “you’ll be looking for Sullivan”, remember it’s “low hanging fruit” to fire the coach when the team performs poorly? Lol…but some people can’t entertain how a guy would take $40M to be prez here without ability to fire the asst VP lol…I can

I think that's Dubas admitting that he's fully bought in to Sullivan's coaching and admires him as a coach, not that he's some meek shithead cowering in the corner, trying to avoid the wrath of his superior.

The big issue is not that Dubas can't fire Sullivan. It's that Dubas doesn't want to, and completely stands by his boy. /shrug

 

[Andy99]

FWIW, I ninja edited a bit at the end of my last post right before you posted this. The era's legacy is cemented. With the "win now at all costs" approach, the end was always gonna be ugly. Though it shouldn't have been this ugly, but the team's full of dipshits in important positions so here we are. Years of spending premium assets chasing 3rd liners, over emphasis on 4th liners, and loyalty to a fraud coach got 'em here. No way out now, so it's either more of this bullshit you and I frequently bitch about and outright don't watch, or the team can actually start to do something to work toward competing again; either while Sid's still playing or with a longer term view in mind.

As for the bolded; we're long past that, this team's already there, the team's just not getting those picks/prospects. They're losing for no reason, there's no silver lining. It's just tedium, resentfulness and apathy until Sid gets his final shot at Olympic gold alongside MacKinnon, Marchand, and McDavid, since that's the last chance he'll ever have for any kind of success while playing hockey. They've got Drew O'Connor on Sid's wing. They've been giving Geno objective losers like Kapanen, McGinn, and a dude like Reilly Smith who was probably counting down the minutes until the end of the season from some time in November onward.

Who cares? This team couldn't beat two actively tanking teams at the extreme bottom of the standings in do-or-die situations to make the dance last year. They needed an improbable, red hot 10 game streak to even be in the discussion this year. A handful of worsening seasons capped off by missing twice and they still can't figure out (or seem to care) what the problems are.

Half the league makes the playoffs. It's not a big accomplishment. A terrible Caps team just did it and then got shitcanned immediately. And after all that, this team is so dysfunctional that they can't even manage that, and their refusal to make changes means they're more fine with the way of things than any of us. /shrug

I think that's Dubas admitting that he's fully bought in to Sullivan's coaching and admires him as a coach, not that he's some meek shithead cowering in the corner, trying to avoid the wrath of his superior.

The big issue is not that Dubas can't fire Sullivan. It's that Dubas doesn't want to, and completely stands by his boy. /shrug

Then he should have no problem firing Sullivan if Sullivan said it’s me and my coaches and neither of us…Sullivan’s position defending asst coaches that Dubas wants to fire should send him out the door regardless of whether Dubas admires him…you can’t let that insubordination pass

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Then he should have no problem firing Sullivan if Sullivan said it’s me and my coaches and neither of us…Sullivan’s position defending asst coaches that Dubas wants to fire should send him out the door regardless of whether Dubas admires him…you can’t let that insubordination pass

What I'm saying is that if Dubas wanted to fire Sully, he would, and he'd have FSG's okay to do so imo given his contract $$$ and length. If Dubas wanted to revamp the assistant coaches and Sully pushed back, I think Dubas would just shrug and give 'em another year before he'd outright fire Sully, because again, the issue isn't that Dubas *can't* fire Sully, it's that Dubas absolutely thinks Sullivan is the best of the best when it comes to coaches. An entirely worse problem to have than Dubas being handcuffed by FSG, imo, because it means Dubas is f***ing dumb.

 

[Andy99]

What I'm saying is that if Dubas wanted to fire Sully, he would, and he'd have FSG's okay to do so imo given his contract $$$ and length. If Dubas wanted to revamp the assistant coaches and Sully pushed back, I think Dubas would just shrug and give 'em another year before he'd outright fire Sully, because again, the issue isn't that Dubas *can't* fire Sully, it's that Dubas absolutely thinks Sullivan is the best of the best when it comes to coaches. An entirely worse problem to have than Dubas being handcuffed by FSG, imo, because it means Dubas is f***ing dumb.

Yeah, I don’t think so but we’ll never know lol

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Yeah, I don’t think so but we’ll never know lol

I dunno what you mean.

Don't think Dubas thinks so highly of Sullivan that he'd relent and give the assistants one more year? Or you don't think Dubas has the power to fire Sullivan?

Dubas' whole divorce from the Leafs was due to a complete lack of autonomy. I doubt he signs on for nearly a decade, regardless of the money (he'd get paid huge money wherever he ended up), if he knows he's going to be answering to a coach that ownership has well above him on the organizational ladder.

The issue imo, again, is that Dubas seems to think Sullivan is as important or more so to this organization as anybody, including Sid. He doesn't *want* to fire Sullivan, so whether or not he'd be allowed to isn't even on the table. I think that's a shittier reality than FSG strong-arming Dubas on any Sullivan related changes.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I dunno what you mean.

Don't think Dubas thinks so highly of Sullivan that he'd relent and give the assistants one more year? Or you don't think Dubas has the power to fire Sullivan?

Dubas' whole divorce from the Leafs was due to a complete lack of autonomy. I doubt he signs on for nearly a decade, regardless of the money (he'd get paid huge money wherever he ended up), if he knows he's going to be answering to a coach that ownership has well above him on the organizational ladder.

The issue imo, again, is that Dubas seems to think Sullivan is as important or more so to this organization as anybody, including Sid. He doesn't *want* to fire Sullivan, so whether or not he'd be allowed to isn't even on the table. I think that's a shittier reality than FSG strong-arming Dubas on any Sullivan related changes.

So... in essence what we're saying here is that @Gurglesons is probably right, pending the next couple of weeks?

Oh god. He's going to be intolerable lol

 

[Gurglesons]

Who cares? This team couldn't beat two actively tanking teams at the extreme bottom of the standings in do-or-die situations to make the dance last year. They needed an improbable, red hot 10 game streak to even be in the discussion this year. A handful of worsening seasons capped off by missing twice and they still can't figure out (or seem to care) what the problems are.

Half the league makes the playoffs. It's not a big accomplishment. A terrible Caps team just did it and then got shitcanned immediately. And after all that, this team is so dysfunctional that they can't even manage that, and their refusal to make changes means they're more fine with the way of things than any of us. /shrug

Sid and Malkin care because they are comfortable and still "competitive" in their eyes.

If Dubas fires Sullivan (which he won't) and starts selling off every piece like Rust, Pettersson, etc he can, Sid strikes me as the type of guy that would potentially be like, cool I'm out.

I understand you don't care about that. But, I'm speaking from the optics of a GM and a franchise legend.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

So... in essence what we're saying here is that @Gurglesons is probably right, pending the next couple of weeks?

Oh god. He's going to be intolerable lol

I've long thought the problem was that Dubas (or anyone else they brought in, most likely) was a full on Sullivan fan boy, and not that FSG is secretly holding a knife to the GM's throat whenever a coaching change is brought up.

This place is just about the only corner of the hockeysphere at large that seems to really take umbrage with Sullivan to any degree. Lukewarm or harsh, it's almost entirely located on HFPens. Sullivan seems universally respected to a bewildering degree.

 

[Andy99]

I dunno what you mean.

Don't think Dubas thinks so highly of Sullivan that he'd relent and give the assistants one more year? Or you don't think Dubas has the power to fire Sullivan?

Dubas' whole divorce from the Leafs was due to a complete lack of autonomy. I doubt he signs on for nearly a decade, regardless of the money (he'd get paid huge money wherever he ended up), if he knows he's going to be answering to a coach that ownership has well above him on the organizational ladder.

The issue imo, again, is that Dubas seems to think Sullivan is as important or more so to this organization as anybody, including Sid. He doesn't *want* to fire Sullivan, so whether or not he'd be allowed to isn't even on the table. I think that's a shittier reality than FSG strong-arming Dubas on any Sullivan related changes.

I don’t think he’d relent in firing the assistant coaches if that’s what he thought was best (or we’d be hearing it described as a power struggle)…I’m sure he likes Sullivan but I think he’d fire him over that if he could…it smells a lot like he can’t fire Sullivan which is what other people like LeBrun have been hinting at…

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Sid and Malkin care because they are comfortable and still "competitive" in their eyes.

If Dubas fires Sullivan (which he won't) and starts selling off every piece like Rust, Pettersson, etc he can, Sid strikes me as the type of guy that would potentially be like, cool I'm out.

I understand you don't care about that. But, I'm speaking from the optics of a GM and a franchise legend.

I just don't agree. Sid's whole thing is a psychotic level of being a creature of habit and picking up and starting anew for the final like two or three years of his career seems antithetical to the way the dude operates. /shrug

I'm sure he won't be happy if it came to that, and I'm sure he was pissed about Jake being sent out of town (just like he was probably pissed when they dealt MAF, or let Kunitz walk, or whatever), but he'd never demand a trade or even publicly speak about being unhappy with things.

I don’t think he’d relent in firing the assistant coaches if that’s what he thought was best (or we’d be hearing it described as a power struggle)…I’m sure he likes Sullivan but I think he’d fire him over that if he could…it smells a lot like he can’t fire Sullivan which is what other people like LeBrun have been hinting at…

FSG acts like they barely remember they have a hockey team like 99% of the time. I highly doubt they're brandishing swords and defending Sullivan's job if it came to that. The money they owe him is something like 0.003% of their net worth.

And if Dubas was any kind of competent, he'd have fired Reirden the second the season ended and just dealt with any potential backlash. If we take what you're saying as true, which I'm sure it isn't, there's no way there's a Reirden clause in Dubas' contract.

 

[BusinessGoose]

I would have fired them all after Game 81 and put Jagr as coach for a game (paid with $2500 in Rivers Casino vouchers)

 

[GilbertSeinfeld]

Let's give FSG some credit here. If they knew they owned the Penguins I'm sure they'd care about the team's direction.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Let's give FSG some credit here. If they knew they owned the Penguins I'm sure they'd care about the team's direction.

I have a hockey team, forget the price
Ain't never been there, they tell me it's nice

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I would have fired them all after Game 81 and put Jagr as coach for a game (paid with $2500 in Rivers Casino vouchers)

I half jokingly said throw an iPad on the glass behind the bench and roll pre-recorded Sid cliches about getting to the net and chasing down loose pucks. I don't believe it'd be worse the ol' Sully and Todd.