Salary Cap: Off Summer News Vol 2

[Empoleon8771]

Hes definitely a top 4 dman amd worth 4mil per year
His hero chart suggests he played really well last year.

There's more to hockey than HERO charts, you know. Have you ever watched him?

If he were as good as you seem to think he is, he wouldn't be available right now.

 

[PensandCaps]

good news, GMJR said fehr is on track to start playing for the pens opening night. Sweet.

 

[PensandCaps]

There's more to hockey than HERO charts, you know. Have you ever watched him?

If he were as good as you seem to think he is, he wouldn't be available right now.

Im not saying hes a world beater, but definitely a top 4 dman.
He looked good in Toronto, i watched all preds playoff games and he looked terribad, but for most the season he was real good, unless he wouldnt have gotten a first, and rumors out there say GMJR offered despres for him amd toronto said no

 

[Empoleon8771]

Im not saying hes a world beater, but definitely a top 4 dman.

I never said you said he is a world beater. Have you ever watched him play? Because a lot of his criticisms (bad decisions with the puck, bad defensively, poor skater) aren't shown by a HERO chart.

 

[Riptide]

Lovejoy is better than a 6/7 at best, that's just laughably untrue. On his normal days, he's a good #5/passable #4. Saying he's at best a #6 is just lying, there's no factual evidence for it unless you think his horrid play last year was someone his norm.

Franson is in no way, shape or form a middle pair defenseman. He's someone that you bring in to play on your bottom pair because he brings size and good offensive abilities, but he's way too flawed to actually be a middle pair option. If he were actually a 3/4 option, he wouldn't have been a healthy scratch in Nashville and wouldn't have played a minimal role with the Predators.

I have to say... it's funny when you talk about providing a source, then suggest a poster is lying when talking about how good/bad a player is (middle pair, bottom pair, whatever), and demand factual evidence for it... then go and say the same **** about Franson - for whom there actually is data that suggest's he's a good top 4D.

http://ownthepuck.blogspot.ca/2015/02/horizontal-evaluative-ranking-optic.html

 

[Empoleon8771]

I have to say... it's funny when you talk about providing a source, then suggest a poster is lying when talking about how good/bad a player is (middle pair, bottom pair, whatever), then go and say the same **** about Franson - for whom there actually is data that suggest's he's a good top 4D.

http://ownthepuck.blogspot.ca/2015/02/horizontal-evaluative-ranking-optic.html

And Lovejoy is also a top-4 defenseman according to those, I think that should show that they're not the most accurate things. I'm saying Franson isn't a top-4 defenseman because I've watched him and I think he has too many flaws for any team to want him in the top-4.

If HERO charts are all that matters, then why do we even need another top-4 D? Lovejoy is a fringe #3 according to them, so why don't we just play him on the middle pair? HERO charts also say Cole is at least a top-4 defenseman in everything but first assists/60.

 

[Riptide]

Franson is in no way, shape or form a middle pair defenseman. He's someone that you bring in to play on your bottom pair because he brings size and good offensive abilities, but he's way too flawed to actually be a middle pair option. If he were actually a 3/4 option, he wouldn't have been a healthy scratch in Nashville and wouldn't have played a minimal role with the Predators.

Or perhaps he just wasn't a fit there. Orpik sucked ass for us over his last year or two... however has been very good for Washington. Does that mean he's a good D? Or just that their system is one that's better suited for him? Same goes for Scuderi. He's been horrendous for us, however he was significantly better for LA. Saying Franson sucks and using Nashville as the basis for that while ignoring everything he did in Toronto just seems very very odd.

Franson sucks, he's not someone you want any higher than a bottom pair role unless he's paired with a really good skating defensive D. Last time I checked, we don't have one of those. He's weak defensively, isn't a strong skater and makes a ton of stupid decisions. That's not a player you go out of your way to sign to play in your top-4. If any team would have wanted him to play in their top-4, they would have signed him already.

Or perhaps he just wants too much money.

You're making a bunch of assumptions here. Which for someone who's posting about factual evidence seems very very odd.

 

[PensandCaps]

I never said you said he is a world beater. Have you ever watched him play? Because a lot of his criticisms (bad decisions with the puck, bad defensively, poor skater) aren't shown by a HERO chart.

Actually those are shown in hero charts, And like i said i watched every preds game in the playoffs, he looked bad, but cant blame him for not beong comfortable in a new system. He looked good in Toronto.

 

[Riptide]

I never said you said he is a world beater. Have you ever watched him play? Because a lot of his criticisms (bad decisions with the puck, bad defensively, poor skater) aren't shown by a HERO chart.

No, but a HERO chart will show you how effective he is overall. And the fact that he's producing at a high level and has a positive impact on his teammates (possession wise) is shown on there. And what they show is that he's someone who can produce around someone who's a top 3D and he can have a positive impact on his linemates possession around that of someone who's a top 3D.

Would I call him a #3D? No. But that doesn't mean he's suddenly a bottom pairing guy - because he's not. That still doesn't mean he's what we're looking for - because he's not really that either.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Or perhaps he just wasn't a fit there. Orpik sucked ass for us over his last year or two... however has been very good for Washington. Does that mean he's a good D? Or just that their system is one that's better suited for him? Same goes for Scuderi. He's been horrendous for us, however he was significantly better for LA. Saying Franson sucks and using Nashville as the basis for that while ignoring everything he did in Toronto just seems very very odd.

I'm not saying Franson sucks because he sucked in Nashville, I'm saying Franson sucks because he has sucked his entire career and has some extremely glaring flaws in his game. Scuderi sucks for us now because his ankle got shattered at the beginning of the 13-14 season, he actually looked serviceable for us at the start of that season while playing with Niskanen.

Or perhaps he just wants too much money.

You're making a bunch of assumptions here. Which for someone who's posting about factual evidence seems very very odd.

It's entirely possible that he was asking for too much money out of the gate in July, but he would have to be absolutely brain dead to be asking for too much money now. It seems a lot more likely that he hasn't been signed yet because he was trash with Nashville and that's the most recent view of him anyone has than he's asking for too much money.

 

[Riptide]

And Lovejoy is also a top-4 defenseman according to those, I think that should show that they're not the most accurate things. I'm saying Franson isn't a top-4 defenseman because I've watched him and I think he has too many flaws for any team to want him in the top-4.

And guess what... Lovejoy was playing like one and as one for the majority of his time in Anaheim. But yeah we'll ignore that.

Then why are we even having this discussion... we should just all bow down to some anonymous poster on the internet's opinion. Especially when he starts demanding facts and evidence from others but just says "because I've watched him" as his evidence. You don't get it both ways.

 

[PensandCaps]

And Lovejoy is also a top-4 defenseman according to those, I think that should show that they're not the most accurate things. I'm saying Franson isn't a top-4 defenseman because I've watched him and I think he has too many flaws for any team to want him in the top-4.

If HERO charts are all that matters, then why do we even need another top-4 D? Lovejoy is a fringe #3 according to them, so why don't we just play him on the middle pair? HERO charts also say Cole is at least a top-4 defenseman in everything but first assists/60.

Lovejoy plays like a top 4 dman when playing sheltered mins, thats what his hero chart shows, while his playoffs shows he struggled in an advanced role

 

[Riptide]

I'm not saying Franson sucks because he sucked in Nashville, I'm saying Franson sucks because he has sucked his entire career and has some extremely glaring flaws in his game. Scuderi sucks for us now because his ankle got shattered at the beginning of the 13-14 season, he actually looked serviceable for us at the start of that season while playing with Niskanen.

Unfortunately the stats or his paycheque doesn't really back that up.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Actually those are shown in hero charts, And like i said i watched every preds game in the playoffs, he looked bad, but cant blame him for not beong comfortable in a new system. He looked good in Toronto.

He was also playing with Phaneuf in Toronto, which we don't have to offer for him. I'm not saying he's bad because he was bad because he was bad

No, but a HERO chart will show you how effective he is overall. And the fact that he's producing at a high level and has a positive impact on his teammates (possession wise) is shown on there. And what they show is that he's someone who can produce around someone who's a top 3D and he can have a positive impact on his linemates possession around that of someone who's a top 3D.

Would I call him a #3D? No. But that doesn't mean he's suddenly a bottom pairing guy - because he's not. That still doesn't mean he's what we're looking for - because he's not really that either.

No, a HERO chart shows a handpicked selection of stats that people try to paint an entire picture with. Kunitz's HERO chart is amazing, but he's certainly not an amazing player. It's really no different than some random person saying a player is great because he has good Corsi numbers. The stats HERO charts show are TOI (doesn't show quality of player, just shows player usage), offensive stats and corsi stats, which are an extension of offensive stats. People take HERO charts for gospel way too easily, they only show a small part of a player's entire game.

 

[Empoleon8771]

And guess what... Lovejoy was playing like one and as one for the majority of his time in Anaheim. But yeah we'll ignore that.

Uh okay? How does that address anything I said? You also editted out the part where I said why do we need another top-4 defenseman, since HERO charts say that all of Lovejoy, Cole, Maatta and Letang are top-4 defensemen?

Then why are we even having this discussion... we should just all bow down to some anonymous poster on the internet's opinion. Especially when he starts demanding facts and evidence from others but just says "because I've watched him" as his evidence. You don't get it both ways.

Nice rebuttal, you've convinced me!!

You may have a point if I would be the only person saying that Franson isn't a top-4 defenseman, but it's a pretty common consensus for people who have actually watched him that he's not a top-4 defenseman. But just keep looking at the HERO charts, since that's all that matters now.

Lovejoy plays like a top 4 dman when playing sheltered mins, thats what his hero chart shows, while his playoff hero chart shows he struggled in an advanced role

But that isn't true, because he didn't play sheltered minutes with Anaheim. He played top-4 minutes with Fowler, and he still had a very good HERO chart. That still doesn't make him a top-4 defenseman though.

Unfortunately the stats or his paycheque doesn't really back that up.

You're really going to argue that his paycheck shows he's a good player? Oh boy, I guess GMs never hand out bad contracts ever. Clarkson sure is a good player because he makes like $5.5 million, he's one of the best wingers in the game.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

Franson doesn't overall suck and he's an NHL player, but his defensive game sucks and this team isn't really in the position to treat him as a reclamation project. Not with so many question marks and Pouliot taking up the offensively gifted but defensively confused slot.

That stupid ****ing Despres trade is going to haunt them.

 

[66-30-33]

Fire Guerin!

 

[PensandCaps]

He was also playing with Phaneuf in Toronto, which we don't have to offer for him. I'm not saying he's bad because he was bad because he was bad



No, a HERO chart shows a handpicked selection of stats that people try to paint an entire picture with. Kunitz's HERO chart is amazing, but he's certainly not an amazing player. It's really no different than some random person saying a player is great because he has good Corsi numbers. The stats HERO charts show are TOI (doesn't show quality of player, just shows player usage), offensive stats and corsi stats, which are an extension of offensive stats. People take HERO charts for gospel way too easily, they only show a small part of a player's entire game.

Yah and kunitz did play really well, before his foot injury, whos to say that didnt hurt his play and now that hes fully recovered he will put up 20 goals and 50points

 

[Empoleon8771]

Yah and kunitz did play really well, before his foot injury, whos to say that didnt hurt his play and now that hes fully recovered he will put up 20 goals and 50points

If you stopped watching him after the 2014 Olympics, then yes, Kunitz did play very well.

 

[PensandCaps]

Uh okay? How does that address anything I said? You also editted out the part where I said why do we need another top-4 defenseman, since HERO charts say that all of Lovejoy, Cole, Maatta and Letang are top-4 defensemen?



Nice rebuttal, you've convinced me!!

You may have a point if I would be the only person saying that Franson isn't a top-4 defenseman, but it's a pretty common consensus for people who have actually watched him that he's not a top-4 defenseman. But just keep looking at the HERO charts, since that's all that matters now.



But that isn't true, because he didn't play sheltered minutes with Anaheim. He played top-4 minutes with Fowler, and he still had a very good HERO chart. That still doesn't make him a top-4 defenseman though.



You're really going to argue that his paycheck shows he's a good player? Oh boy, I guess GMs never hand out bad contracts ever. Clarkson sure is a good player because he makes like $5.5 million, he's one of the best wingers in the game.

Pretty sure Anaheims top 4 was
Vatanen
Lindholm
Fowler
Beauchemen
So that means lovejoy was the bottom pairing when everyone was healthy.

 

[PensandCaps]

If you stopped watching him after the 2014 Olympics, then yes, Kunitz did play very well.

No, he was off to a rea good start with crosby,hornqvist this year. But then injuries really messed up that line. Kunys foot and hornqvists injury.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Pretty sure Anaheims top 4 was
Vatanen
Lindholm
Fowler
Beauchemen
So that means lovejoy was the bottom pairing when everyone was healthy.

No Vatanen was on their bottom pair. Lovejoy was Fowler's most common linemate in both 13-14 and 14-15, and Fowler is their #1 defenseman.

No, he was off to a rea good start with crosby,hornqvist this year. But then injuries really messed up that line. Kunys foot and hornqvists injury.

I don't agree with this either. The team was playing at an unsustainable high and was thriving off an extremely deadly PP unit. It was clicking at like 40% for the first 13 games or so. In the first 13 games, he had 16 points and 9 of those 16 were on the PP. Once the Pens PP stopped clicking, his production plummeted.

 

[Jacob]

Pretty sure Anaheims top 4 was
Vatanen
Lindholm
Fowler
Beauchemen
So that means lovejoy was the bottom pairing when everyone was healthy.

Yeah, he was a healthy scratch twice.

 

[PensandCaps]

I think lovejoy is one of the better extra/3rd pairing dman in the NHL, in a diminished role hes reaaly good, dont make him play top 4 mins.while franson is a top 4 dman witth good hero chart while playing top 4 mins, franson doesnt suck and is much better than lovejoy, the stats back it up

 

[PensandCaps]

No Vatanen was on their bottom pair. Lovejoy was Fowler's most common linemate in both 13-14 and 14-15, and Fowler is their #1 defenseman.



I don't agree with this either. The team was playing at an unsustainable high and was thriving off an extremely deadly PP unit. It was clicking at like 40% for the first 13 games or so. In the first 13 games, he had 16 points and 9 of those 16 were on the PP. Once the Pens PP stopped clicking, his production plummeted.

He struggled after Due to his injury. I think he rebounds. He looked decent in the playoffs. The advanced metrics say he will. Not all star level but 20goal production