We do not realize what we have. To have Nylander as your third best young forward puts you in a fantastic situation.
Nylander to C - It HAS to Happen
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Nithoniniel
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That happened because Babcock more and more did not trust the Bozak line, and was very hesitant to put them out there unless in great circumstances.
They played less than that though, as 14 minutes at even strength isn't all that little. I think most of our top forwards were around that area.
Yeah. I think having a rare talent like Matthews and the meteoric rise of Marner has made Nylander "only" following the trajectory of stardom look weak in comparison.
Bozak played around 13.5 minutes at ES the last time I checked. Problem is if you start increasing the third lines ice time your taking away time from the Kadri and Matthews lines whom already don't seem to see that much ice time.
Agreed. They had some chemistry, but it wasn't amazing chemistry.
They are both amazing players, so obviously they still work well together. But I think we'd be much better off with Matthews - Marner and then have Nylander center his own line.
It was fun watching them play together and Nylander made some beautiful passes to Matthews. But Marner is still a much better fit and Nylander will be able to "drive" the other line as center better than Marner could on the wing.
I wouldn't be opposed to having the holy trinity play together Nylander - Matthews - Marner ... if we got Tavares because we would still have a really good 2nd and 3rd line.
One of the reasons it looked like they had amazing chemistry is because both of them basically stopped passing to Hyman since he would just dump it in the corner. So Matthews and Nylander were constantly looking for each other since they didn't have many other options.
Nithoniniel
Registered User
Not necessarily. I made an earlier ice time distribution with Nylander on the third line where he played around 17 minutes, with Marner at a bit more than that and Matthews at 19. With more ice time to our first PP unit and a fourth line seeing more specialized minutes, it is quite possible. I'll try to find the post.
Nithoniniel
Registered User
The thing that continuously surprises me about this debate is that people who say he is a winger act like he wasn't very good if not outright dominant as a centre literally everywhere else he played before the NHL and internationally and was pretty impressive at centre when called up for the first time at the end of the 15/16 season. To me, he has never looked as comfortable on the wing as he did at centre with the Marlies and internationally. If they sign one of the big UFA Cs (Tavares, Stastny) then it doesn't need to happen right away, but I think the Leafs are a better team with him at C long term.
having a lot of skills help but before the skill you need a lot of skating and speed to cover the ice cause nobody needs to cover more ice on the rink than your centers, tons of 3rd and 4th line centers in hockey dont even have much skills but then skate great and can play great D with it
nylander has the speed and then some, hes a great skater...and then we know willy got all the skills, he can skate with it and handle it and deke by you, can pass that puck, and shoot it...so the potential to play a full 3 zone game is all there, he just needs the chance imo, and he will i think, i mean unless the leafs can somehow find a center with more potential than nylander around
nylander has the speed and then some, hes a great skater...and then we know willy got all the skills, he can skate with it and handle it and deke by you, can pass that puck, and shoot it...so the potential to play a full 3 zone game is all there, he just needs the chance imo, and he will i think, i mean unless the leafs can somehow find a center with more potential than nylander around
Crease Master
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You don't force a square peg into a round hole. If he is a superior winger you let him be that regardless of the depth behind him in the organization. I don't understand why you would be advocating for doing things the way the Habs do. It hasn't exactly led to success for them.
LeafingTheWay
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Grundstrom, Bracco and Timashov IMO will be great additions to the top-9 for the Leafs in 2 years. Meaning that our top-9 wingers would be:
Marner
Nylander
Johnsson
Kapanen
Brown
Hyman
+
Grundstrom
Bracco
Timashov
Aaltonen (if Babcock prefers him on the wing)
That's a LOT of depth. So you're right, moving to Nylander (where he feels the best playing), is the correct decision.
Marner
Nylander
Johnsson
Kapanen
Brown
Hyman
+
Grundstrom
Bracco
Timashov
Aaltonen (if Babcock prefers him on the wing)
That's a LOT of depth. So you're right, moving to Nylander (where he feels the best playing), is the correct decision.
Liminality
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- Oct 22, 2008
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I don't think it's forcing anything. Nylander has been a natural center for most of his career right? He's also not going to be counted on to try and play on the first line like Montreal has been trying with their wingers. He's had some NHL experience at center now under Babcock and with a position opening up why wouldn't they try and fill the center hole with Nylander?
taurine330
Registered User
It just annoys me that this is even a discussion. He belongs to the middle and should be playing there already.
This time last year Nylander was getting his tires pumped because he had a good playoff, tore up the World's, and won tournament MVP while Marner had just come off a poor playoff and bout of mono. Nylander was a hero.
This year Marner had a crazy second half and a good playoff, so now he's the hero and everybody was ready to ship Nylander out of town.
Both guys have had up's and downs and both even had their turn on the 4th line this season as wakeup call stints. They are still kids with growing pains but they will play through it and get better.
Some day soon we'll have 2017 World's Nylander and second half 2018 Marner going full tilt at the same time, for entire seasons. And if that's not enough there's always AUSTON FRIGGIN' MATTHEWS playing even better than the both of them.
Yeah, we are in pretty good shape. Patience is needed while these guys approach their primes.
As for Nylander playing C I think it's probably best for the long term that he does, eventually running his own scoring line with a sniper on his wing. A 1-2-3 of Matthews-Nylander-Kadri with our wing depth spread out amongst them is a pretty solid formula for the future.
This coming season though I think he can use some more time moving to and from the middle until Babs can find an effective line setup for him. I wouldn't throw him into the fire right from game one unless the roster situation after free agency requires it.
This year Marner had a crazy second half and a good playoff, so now he's the hero and everybody was ready to ship Nylander out of town.
Both guys have had up's and downs and both even had their turn on the 4th line this season as wakeup call stints. They are still kids with growing pains but they will play through it and get better.
Some day soon we'll have 2017 World's Nylander and second half 2018 Marner going full tilt at the same time, for entire seasons. And if that's not enough there's always AUSTON FRIGGIN' MATTHEWS playing even better than the both of them.
Yeah, we are in pretty good shape. Patience is needed while these guys approach their primes.
As for Nylander playing C I think it's probably best for the long term that he does, eventually running his own scoring line with a sniper on his wing. A 1-2-3 of Matthews-Nylander-Kadri with our wing depth spread out amongst them is a pretty solid formula for the future.
This coming season though I think he can use some more time moving to and from the middle until Babs can find an effective line setup for him. I wouldn't throw him into the fire right from game one unless the roster situation after free agency requires it.
diceman934
Help is on the way.
I disagree and I hate the Habs. Domi bring passion and energy nightly. Domi will be playing on a better team and with his play making ability will have a bigger impact I feel.
It's like Bozak vs Kadri all over again - except we're dealing with much better players with a team in a far better situation.
I really do believe that if Nylander is to live up to his full potential, he needs to be a center. He's played the vast majority of his career as a center.
Agreed 110%. It annoys me so much that barely any of the last 2 years have been spent developing chemistry between Matthews and Marner. These 2 players are made for eachother.
TorontoTrades
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If hes not a center they should consider flipping him. Cant tie big money long term in two wingers and still have a good center and D core
Fair enough, I'd rather lean on Matthews line a little more. He deserves proper 1st line usage which I feel like he hasn't really gotten. Always been used in a 1A/1B fashion.
I also don't see any situation where both Kap and AJ play above Brown in the lineup. Let alone a rookie Grundstrom coming in and playing around 5 minutes more than Brown. I just don't see it. Babcock seems to like to bring in young rookies in a a bottom 6 role (unless they are superstars like the big 3) rather than stick them directly on the top line or top 6. I just really feel like Brown is going to get used in the top 9 not the 4th line like everyone has penciled him in for. At this point nether AJ or Kap have proven close to what Brown has in the NHL. Their career AHL numbers are similar and I think AJ is only like a year younger.
X66
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One thing that I never got is that Nylander has been an elite center at every level, but for some reason he's not given much opportunity to grow into it here.
He was a terrific center in his first call-up year as well, all things considered.
He was a terrific center in his first call-up year as well, all things considered.
Griffin76
Registered User
I thought Nylander was way more engaged as a center last year. I didn't think he looked bad at all. He's definitely a playmaker first and he needs to be "the guy" on his line. It was great having Matthews and Nylander grow together but I agree it's time to separate them and see what we have.
weems
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- Jul 3, 2008
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Being super elite down the middle is hard to achieve and when you hit, it usually pays off in a big way.
Nylander should be given a long run just based on the potential upside if it works. Why would you honestly ignore this option this early in his career especially considering its been his natural position all his youth?
If he bombs, so what at least you attemped it and got a good sample size read on the situation.
Nylander should be given a long run just based on the potential upside if it works. Why would you honestly ignore this option this early in his career especially considering its been his natural position all his youth?
If he bombs, so what at least you attemped it and got a good sample size read on the situation.
This might be a bad take and I know that it is going to go against the premise of this thread, but I feel like the value of centers is actually dwindling. Not that wingers are becoming more valuable or anything, just that it seems teams are going to more of a 3 forward positions rather than a center and 2 wingers scheme.
A lot of teams are starting to play 2 centers on the same line or simply 2 people they feel comfortable winning faceoffs. Those teams are trying to get an advantage or at least limit a disadvantage by keeping players on their strong side for faceoffs. However, even if a center takes a draw on their weak side, would they not have at least a slight advantage against a winger? San Jose has one of the best faceoff winners in Joe Pavelski, yet after the Evander Kane acquisition, it was Kane who would take draws on the Left Wing side, and before Kane it was Thornton. Vegas has Marchessault taking faceoffs on the right side and Karlsson on the left. The list goes on
And if you are thinking "those are just faceoffs, once play begins players have their defined roles of where to be based on their position." That is becoming less true now as well. Forechecking schemes used to be 1 winger goes into the forecheck, one stays close of a quick pass or create a turnover and the center remains high to stay in defensive position. Now it is becoming F1, F2, and F3. The first person in no matter their position is F1, second one is F2, and the last is F3.
That is how it works in the defensive zone these days now too. The first guy back is F1 and covers the slot or assists the defensemen. The 2nd and 3rd stay relatively high in the zone to defend passes to the point.
Because of the free flow nature of the game, the 3 forward positions have been used to describe where to stand during a faceoff, but with so many teams trying to keep players on their strong side for draws, positions are becoming even less relevant.
I wrote all that to say this, the Leafs do not need to turn Nylander into a center. Keep him as he is, if you want him on his own line away from Matthews and/or Marner that is fine. He can still take faceoffs and stuff, but play him with a stronger player like a Brown or a Hyman. Nylander can win draws but with a stronger player the team can have that player help control cycle games and down low play. Because of the F1 set up, it is not going to be Nylander down low the whole time anyways.
A lot of teams are starting to play 2 centers on the same line or simply 2 people they feel comfortable winning faceoffs. Those teams are trying to get an advantage or at least limit a disadvantage by keeping players on their strong side for faceoffs. However, even if a center takes a draw on their weak side, would they not have at least a slight advantage against a winger? San Jose has one of the best faceoff winners in Joe Pavelski, yet after the Evander Kane acquisition, it was Kane who would take draws on the Left Wing side, and before Kane it was Thornton. Vegas has Marchessault taking faceoffs on the right side and Karlsson on the left. The list goes on
And if you are thinking "those are just faceoffs, once play begins players have their defined roles of where to be based on their position." That is becoming less true now as well. Forechecking schemes used to be 1 winger goes into the forecheck, one stays close of a quick pass or create a turnover and the center remains high to stay in defensive position. Now it is becoming F1, F2, and F3. The first person in no matter their position is F1, second one is F2, and the last is F3.
That is how it works in the defensive zone these days now too. The first guy back is F1 and covers the slot or assists the defensemen. The 2nd and 3rd stay relatively high in the zone to defend passes to the point.
Because of the free flow nature of the game, the 3 forward positions have been used to describe where to stand during a faceoff, but with so many teams trying to keep players on their strong side for draws, positions are becoming even less relevant.
I wrote all that to say this, the Leafs do not need to turn Nylander into a center. Keep him as he is, if you want him on his own line away from Matthews and/or Marner that is fine. He can still take faceoffs and stuff, but play him with a stronger player like a Brown or a Hyman. Nylander can win draws but with a stronger player the team can have that player help control cycle games and down low play. Because of the F1 set up, it is not going to be Nylander down low the whole time anyways.
LeafingTheWay
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Using Mezinger's line format, it'll change game to game depending on the situation. For example, we'll probably see:
Trailing: More of Matthews, Nylander lines than usual.
Leading: More of Kadri line than usual, Less of Nylander line than usual.
Tied: Normal
As for Kappy/Johnson vs Brown: Its all about Babcocks trust. We saw his trust with Johnsson grow big time in the playoffs + he's a LW with JVR gone, so it's almost guaranteed he plays more than Brown. Kappy vs Brown should be interesting though I agree. Brown will probably start off higher than Kappy as they're both RW.
Agree with your first paragraph, although not sure if Babcock will follow that format haha.
AJ plays a different side than Brown so I don't think you can say that Babcock trusted AJ more during the playoffs. Brown was relied on to carry the defensive load for an entire line, AJ not so much. I just feel like Babcock is big into seniority and Brown having played for the Leafs longer and having to do a ton of low key shitty work for the Leafs means he will be rewarded this year.
Though the fact the right side is a lot deeper than the left could result in AJ playing a lot more than Brown. That is fair enough.
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