Blue Jays Discussion: Now accepting rants about Sanchez going to the bullpen

[Woodman19]

When has Bautista ever used the term "No Comment". He always speaks his mind.

And his big mouth is about to cost him again.

 

[Discoverer]

No, hes the multi million dollar athlete making more money then all of us put together will ever earn in our lifetime crying because he feels he is entitled to more and then goes in front of the Cameras talking about how he doesn't owe anything to Toronto. (I agree that he doesn't)

Ah yes... the "multi-million dollar athlete can't feel like he's worth more" argument.

He's also the multi-million dollar athlete who has earned hundreds of millions of dollars for his billionaire employer over the last six years and feels like he wants a bigger cut of that money next time around.

 

[Woodman19]

Ah yes... the "multi-million dollar athlete can't feel like he's worth more" argument.

He's also the multi-million dollar athlete who has earned hundreds of millions of dollars for his billionaire employer over the last six years and feels like he wants a bigger cut of that money next time around.

Who then cries to the media how unfair he has been treated.

The issue here isn't that he wants the money, the issue is that he went and cried to the media about it.

 

[Canada4Gold]

Meh. The Jays don't owe him anything, but I think the disdain people feel towards Bautista for wanting to get the best contract possible after years of being vastly underpaid is ridiculous and misplaced.

He said a couple of things this offseason that almost every high-level free agent every season has thought. It's not like it's a secret that these guys want to get paid and believe in their abilities, but Bautista has been lambasted because he actually said he thinks he deserves a lot of money. Again... meh. Why didn't Halladay get this kind of treatment when he openly stated that he refused to sign another extension in Toronto?

Bautista has given us some of the most memorable moments in team history and been the best position player the team has ever had. Personally, I want to see him succeed in his final year with the team, and then I would be perfectly happy seeing him go and get a whole bunch of money from someone else. I don't understand why anyone would be so petty and spiteful as to openly cheer for him to fail after all he's contributed to this franchise.

I think a lot of it stems from how he said "I've given this team a hometown discount for 5 years now" as if it sounded like the team needs to overpay him mov ing forward or something or he'll go somewhere else.

That's sorta what I read into those comments and it turned me off a little bit. I don't get mad at him for wanting market value, but it seemed like he wanted more than market value from us because he was underpaid in the past.

And Lake is up. Dammit it where's Dalton

 

[ShaneFalco]

We can argue about the value of his current contract, speaking up like he did etc - none of that is important now. It's about his value going forward

 

[Discoverer]

Who then cries to the media how unfair he has been treated.

The issue here isn't that he wants the money, the issue is that he went and cried to the media about it.

“I think I maximized on a great season back then,†Bautista said of his 54-homer effort in 2010. “I just happened to outplay the contract to an extreme, even though I had to deal with a few injuries and miss a significant chunk of games. That sort of thing happens and I never once complained about it and I haven’t still. All I’m saying is the facts are facts. I did outplay that contract and it did come out to be the team got a huge hometown discount. Not by design. They took a gamble. That was a big risk. Alex took a lot of heat for that and I just came through. I’m not going to apologize for that.â€

This is what you consider crying to the media about how unfairly he has been treated?

 

[Discoverer]

I think a lot of it stems from how he said "I've given this team a hometown discount for 5 years now" as if it sounded like the team needs to overpay him mov ing forward or something or he'll go somewhere else.

That's sorta what I read into those comments and it turned me off a little bit. I don't get mad at him for wanting market value, but it seemed like he wanted more than market value from us because he was underpaid in the past.

And Lake is up. Dammit it where's Dalton

But, again, that's just people reading way too far into it to the point where they heard things he didn't actually say. There's a big difference between "The Jays have to pay me more than other teams to make up for the discount" (which he wasn't even close to saying) and "I won't give the Jays a discount because I want to get as much as I can in my next contract" (which, while most players don't actually say it, is what almost every player does).

 

[MikeK]

We can argue about the value of his current contract, speaking up like he did etc - none of that is important now. It's about his value going forward

Exactly. Going forward this season has really shown his decline as a positional player. I am so glad the Jays never signed him back in spring training. He's nowhere close to being worth what he feels he is.

 

[sparxx87]

Obviously. But he was vastly underpaid over that time, so it makes perfect sense that he might now want the biggest contract he can get to close out his career, regardless of whether or not the Jays are the team to give it to him.

Would it be fair for the Jays to want a big discount if he was vastly overpaid? ... By that logic, yeah... But he'd just go sign somewhere else for market.

This idea only seems to work if it suits the player.. What about all the teams who have signed players to what turned out to be bad contracts? They should get the player on their next contract at a club friendly number to compensate.


These types of situations are the reason contracts exist in the first place.

Steph Curry should ask for 15m above his market value next contract to compensate for the discount he's given the past few years. We could call it the Joey Bats variable.

 

[Woodman19]

Would it be fair for the Jays to want a big discount if he was vastly overpaid? ... By that logic, yeah... But he'd just go sign somewhere else for market.

This idea only seems to work if it suits the player.. What about all the teams who have signed players to what turned out to be bad contracts? They should get the player on their next contract at a club friendly number to compensate.


These types of situations are the reason contracts exist in the first place.

Steph Curry should ask for 15m above his market value next contract to compensate for the discount he's given the past few years. We could call it the Joey Bats variable.

Jose is overpaid this season. Hes on pace for what, 1 WAR? He should give us back $8 million on the next contract

 

[Mad Brills*]

Ah yes... the "multi-million dollar athlete can't feel like he's worth more" argument.

He's also the multi-million dollar athlete who has earned hundreds of millions of dollars for his billionaire employer over the last six years and feels like he wants a bigger cut of that money next time around.

I'll side with the millionaries over the billionaires in this fight.

Same happens at much lower rates with greedy business guys.

 

[Canada4Gold]

I'm starting to give up on Dalton being a long term starter here. There's still plenty of time. It starting to go from feeling like they're keeping him down to develop to they're keeping him down because they don't like him longterm or something.

That may be a quick shortsighted view, but this is the first real decision where it's like it doesn't make any sense to me. He's had lots of development time, and now here's a chance for him to get MLB time for a prolonged period, and they don't pick him.

If they can't trust him now, are they going to trust him to maybe take a spot this offseason into next year? Doesn't seem like it and it angers me, because I feel like he can be league average right now with potential upside too.

 

[Woodman19]

I'm starting to give up on Dalton being a long term starter here. There's still plenty of time. It starting to go from feeling like they're keeping him down to develop to they're keeping him down because they don't like him longterm or something.

That may be a quick shortsighted view, but this is the first real decision where it's like it doesn't make any sense to me. He's had lots of development time, and now here's a chance for him to get MLB time for a prolonged period, and they don't pick him.

If they can't trust him now, are they going to trust him to maybe take a spot this offseason into next year? Doesn't seem like it and it angers me, because I feel like he can be league average right now with potential upside too.

Development isn't necessarily to promote a player as soon as they start showing signs of success at a given level. For all we know they have done something with his swing that they simply want to continue monitoring in Buffalo for the consistency of the play time available there. I believe they have stated in the past that they wanted him to stay there for a while instead of like the year he came up where he went through what, 4 levels in a season?

 

[The Nemesis]

Jose Bautista doesn't owe the team, the city, the fans, or anyone else anything at all. If he wants to chase the money then more power to him. That's his right and though I wouldn't want the Jays to hand it over to him, I don't fault him for taking the opportunity.

If there's a problem with Jose's conduct it's that he's poisoning the negotiating relationship with crap like his "I don't believe in hometown discounts" rant or just taking that talk to the media to complain about needing to get paid "what he's owed" or stuff like that. it's a failure and a dumb move on two fronts:

1) How you handle this is kind of an audition for other teams. They want to see that you won't let things get distracted or that you're not going to throw others under the bus for your own reasons. So it looks bad on him for doing what he's done and talking as he has.

2) The first thing you ever learn about negotiating in situations like this (or any situation, really) is that negotiations are collaborative in nature, not adversarial. You get what you want by working with the other party across the table, not by digging your heels in and demanding that it's your way or the highway.

Combine his piss poor (by his standards) play at the plate this season with his piss poor (by anyone's standards) play in the field this season and this self-defeating angry entitled attitude he flashed in spring training and he is absolutely cratering his value. He turned down the Jays before the season started because he expected a greater value contract that I felt at the time was probably excessive. The way things have played out since then he probably wishes he considered the Jays' offer because he may not see another offer like that having seen what he's done this season.

And he's also not helped his cause by coming off as an entitled whiner. If Shapiro had gone on the radio and said things equivalent to Bautista's comments, fans would've crucified him for alienating the player and acting like a jerk.

 

[Canada4Gold]

But, again, that's just people reading way too far into it to the point where they heard things he didn't actually say. There's a big difference between "The Jays have to pay me more than other teams to make up for the discount" (which he wasn't even close to saying) and "I won't give the Jays a discount because I want to get as much as I can in my next contract" (which, while most players don't actually say it, is what almost every player does).

But he's obviously never going to publicly make that comment. Nobody in their right mind would.

Obviously you can never be 100% sure what his plans are, but I got that sort of vibe from that comment, and that could be completely wrong.

He asked for 5x30 which seemed way more than market value even at the time, so that kind of backs up that thought a bit too. Or maybe he just overestimated his market, again who knows.

I'm not in the happy he's failing camp, but I sort of feel vindicated as in you asked from us way more than you were worth and now you're proving they were right in not giving it to you.

 

[Discoverer]

Would it be fair for the Jays to want a big discount if he was vastly overpaid? ... By that logic, yeah... But he'd just go sign somewhere else for market.

That's kind of exactly what Bautista said, though: give me the money I want or I'll go sign somewhere else for market.

Again, he never said he wants the Jays to make up for the money he felt he deserved the last few years. He said he won't sign a cheaper contract than he could get elsewhere. There's an enormous difference.

 

[Canada4Gold]

Development isn't necessarily to promote a player as soon as they start showing signs of success at a given level. For all we know they have done something with his swing that they simply want to continue monitoring in Buffalo for the consistency of the play time available there. I believe they have stated in the past that they wanted him to stay there for a while instead of like the year he came up where he went through what, 4 levels in a season?

But he's been proving it for over a full year now. From the time he got sent back down last year and struggled, went back to NH, and ripped it up, and back to Buffalo it's been a full season and a month or so. It's not like the first time around where he got to Buffalo for like a month and then got the spot full time the following year.

At this point in his career it feels like yeah he's proven himself in Buffalo but there's 3 outfielders blocking him in Toronto so he's got to continue playing well in Buffalo and wait for his chance. It comes and no he stays down there.

The point being, after 1 more month of AAA ball(and mostly bench and PR duties in Toronto) the offseason will be here, are they going to go out and find some more outfielders and he's going to start down in Buffalo again next year waiting for another chance? Or will they believe he's ready for another chance then when it doesn't seem like they think he is right now?

 

[MikeK]

Jose Bautista doesn't owe the team, the city, the fans, or anyone else anything at all. If he wants to chase the money then more power to him. That's his right and though I wouldn't want the Jays to hand it over to him, I don't fault him for taking the opportunity.

If there's a problem with Jose's conduct it's that he's poisoning the negotiating relationship with crap like his "I don't believe in hometown discounts" rant or just taking that talk to the media to complain about needing to get paid "what he's owed" or stuff like that. it's a failure and a dumb move on two fronts:

1) How you handle this is kind of an audition for other teams. They want to see that you won't let things get distracted or that you're not going to throw others under the bus for your own reasons. So it looks bad on him for doing what he's done and talking as he has.

2) The first thing you ever learn about negotiating in situations like this (or any situation, really) is that negotiations are collaborative in nature, not adversarial. You get what you want by working with the other party across the table, not by digging your heels in and demanding that it's your way or the highway.

Combine his piss poor (by his standards) play at the plate this season with his piss poor (by anyone's standards) play in the field this season and this self-defeating angry entitled attitude he flashed in spring training and he is absolutely cratering his value. He turned down the Jays before the season started because he expected a greater value contract that I felt at the time was probably excessive. The way things have played out since then he probably wishes he considered the Jays' offer because he may not see another offer like that having seen what he's done this season.

And he's also not helped his cause by coming off as an entitled whiner. If Shapiro had gone on the radio and said things equivalent to Bautista's comments, fans would've crucified him for alienating the player and acting like a jerk.

Good post.

 

[theaub]

I don't see how anyone got the vibe from Bautista that he wouldn't come back here next year with an equivalent contract. Let's not forget what he said

- that he wasn't giving the Jays a hometown discount because he had already done so (100% accurate)
- that he wouldn't negotiate (a power play on the new exec team)

Then someone leaked (aka the front office) a $150M figure, and everyone lol'd and it turned into a failed power play. Now its even more lol since he's closer to $50M than $150M at this point.

 

[Scrub*]

I'm starting to give up on Dalton being a long term starter here. There's still plenty of time. It starting to go from feeling like they're keeping him down to develop to they're keeping him down because they don't like him longterm or something.

That may be a quick shortsighted view, but this is the first real decision where it's like it doesn't make any sense to me. He's had lots of development time, and now here's a chance for him to get MLB time for a prolonged period, and they don't pick him.

If they can't trust him now, are they going to trust him to maybe take a spot this offseason into next year? Doesn't seem like it and it angers me, because I feel like he can be league average right now with potential upside too.

Don't give up on him, just because we're not using a rookie in our lineup doesn't mean he may not be here next year or 2 years from now. Actually, when rosters expand it would be interesting to see what happens here. Since they used him last year as a pinch runner and did pretty well.

But 1992 the Jays barely used Delgado and Shawn Green didn't mean they wouldn't find a spot going forward. Not saying pompey will be as good as them but yeah.

 

[Discoverer]

But he's obviously never going to publicly make that comment. Nobody in their right mind would.

Obviously you can never be 100% sure what his plans are, but I got that sort of vibe from that comment, and that could be completely wrong.

He asked for 5x30 which seemed way more than market value even at the time, so that kind of backs up that thought a bit too. Or maybe he just overestimated his market, again who knows.

I'm not in the happy he's failing camp, but I sort of feel vindicated as in you asked from us way more than you were worth and now you're proving they were right in now giving it to you.

That was the rumoured ask, yeah, but there were plenty of different rumours around that time. I have a hard time believing any of that kind of stuff.

Regardless... yeah. I'm very glad the Jays didn't sign him to an extension because any reasonable extension would be looking very bad right now. But I would still much, much rather see him have a great season and go sign a ridiculous contract somewhere else than watch his play fall off so dramatically like this.

He's a Blue Jays legend and (assuming he doesn't turn it around) it's really disappointing to see his tenure (likely) end this way.

 

[Canada4Gold]

Don't give up on him, just because we're not using a rookie in our lineup doesn't mean he may not be here next year or 2 years from now. Actually, when rosters expand it would be interesting to see what happens here. Since they used him last year as a pinch runner and did pretty well.

But 1992 the Jays barely used Delgado and Shawn Green didn't mean they wouldn't find a spot going forward. Not saying pompey will be as good as them but yeah.

I'm not giving up on him. I still very much believe in him, I think he could be a league average outfielder right now(wRC+ around 85-90 with great defense to make him average) and his ceiling is higher.

What I am slowly losing hope in is how much management believes in him. It feels like they don't believe in him as much as I do.

 

[Discoverer]

But he's been proving it for over a full year now. From the time he got sent back down last year and struggled, went back to NH, and ripped it up, and back to Buffalo it's been a full season and a month or so. It's not like the first time around where he got to Buffalo for like a month and then got the spot full time the following year.

At this point in his career it feels like yeah he's proven himself in Buffalo but there's 3 outfielders blocking him in Toronto so he's got to continue playing well in Buffalo and wait for his chance. It comes and no he stays down there.

The point being, after 1 more month of AAA ball(and mostly bench and PR duties in Toronto) the offseason will be here, are they going to go out and find some more outfielders and he's going to start down in Buffalo again next year waiting for another chance? Or will they believe he's ready for another chance then when it doesn't seem like they think he is right now?

I'm really high on Pompey, so my only hope at this point is that they genuinely want to make sure he never goes back down once he makes it next time. Carrera will be back in a few days, so the Ceciliani callup kind of made sense. I don't get this one as much, but... I don't know. I'm hoping they've just decided to wait until September 1 and make sure he never plays another minor league game again after that.

 

[Woodman19]

I'm really high on Pompey, so my only hope at this point is that they genuinely want to make sure he never goes back down once he makes it next time. Carrera will be back in a few days, so the Ceciliani callup kind of made sense. I don't get this one as much, but... I don't know. I'm hoping they've just decided to wait until September 1 and make sure he never plays another minor league game again after that.

I recall hearing somewhere in spring training that the Jays front office was very high on him and thought he was a key piece moving forward.

 

[Kurtz]

I get being relieved that we didn't commit 100+ mil to JB in the off-season, but being happy about the injury is kinda nuts.

I'm guessing that when he comes back he'll be a full-time DH, with EE at 1B and the Jays will be a Smoak-free zone.


Anyway, what the HELL happened to Carlos Gomez...and should we pick him up?