No Hawks jerseys in Toronto schools? Just an FYI for fans here

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TeddyGoalsevelt

Duke of Earl
Jun 6, 2015
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If having that logo on t-shirts, center ice, and the floor of a locker room offends you, then again, too bad. The offended's opinion isn't the only one that matters.

It doesn't offend me. But it offends my friend. And she's a Hawks fan. And you know what, instead of discounting her thoughts for being different than mine, I tried the novel idea of listening to her.

I realized that the face wasn't Black Hawk. It's just some random guy. What do I care if our logo goes from some random guy to something else.

Hell, change the logo to the real Black Hawk. At least then it really stands for something.
 

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There's nothing wrong with naming a team after a native guy. Just like there's nothing wrong with naming your team after a black guy.

But the face on the sweater is not Black Hawk. It's another random stereotypical native face that is no better than any other sports team.

That's like me saying I'm naming a team after MLK and then having some random stereotypical black guy as the logo. It's a non sequitur.

No better than any other sports team? I'll concede that the Indians logo and Redskins team name can reasonably be (subjectively) viewed as offensive, but to say that about the Blackhawks logo isn't very accurate.

A team logo is a symbol meant to envoke certain thoughts and emotions of the fans and players. If a team was named the MLKs and they had a logo of another black man instead of Dr. King then it wouldn't necessarily be offensive either. Hypothetically that team name "MLKs" would be chosen because it inspired feelings of bravery, passion, resilience, and conviction. If the hypothetical logo conveyed those things then it could be fine as well.

Same with the Blackhawks logo. It was chosen to convey bravery, tenacity, strength, i.e. the sort of thing people want from their sports teams.
 

x Tame Impala

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It doesn't offend me. But it offends my friend. And she's a Hawks fan. And you know what, instead of discounting her thoughts for being different than mine, I tried the novel idea of listening to her.

I realized that the face wasn't Black Hawk. It's just some random guy. What do I care if our logo goes from some random guy to something else.

Hell, change the logo to the real Black Hawk. At least then it really stands for something.

Your arguments lose what very little steam they had when you resort to pretentiousness and condescension. I'm debating your points, reading them and replying to them, just because I'm not agreeing with what you're saying doesn't mean I'm not listening.
 

piteus

Registered User
Dec 20, 2015
12,122
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Yes, there is an appropriate saying. To the victor go the spoils. Always has, always will...whining not withstanding.

Come on ... you don't mean that. I know it's an anonymous message board ... but even then there are limits. The Civil War was based on that type of sentiment.

That quote is what separates the savage from the civil. I hope we evolved as a culture / creature and are beyond this. Unfortunately, when I look at the current global landscape ... we really haven't.

In any sense, this is getting way too serious / philosophical. I'd rather occupy myself on a different thread taking about Bickell's big fat contract, Ladd's beef with the overrated Toews, and Fiddy's belief the Hawks are about to become Edmonton 2.0
 

TeddyGoalsevelt

Duke of Earl
Jun 6, 2015
325
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The Region
No better than any other sports team? I'll concede that the Indians logo and Redskins team name can reasonably be (subjectively) viewed as offensive, but to say that about the Blackhawks logo isn't very accurate.

Hold on. The rest of your post is totally understandable.

But if you say the Redskins logo could be racist, how is it any different than the Blackhawks logo? They're very similar. It's the name and behavior of the organizations that is the difference.
 

TeddyGoalsevelt

Duke of Earl
Jun 6, 2015
325
0
The Region
Your arguments lose what very little steam they had when you resort to pretentiousness and condescension. I'm debating your points, reading them and replying to them, just because I'm not agreeing with what you're saying doesn't mean I'm not listening.

Hard to convey meaning over text. Sorry, I didn't mean me, I think we're having a productive discussion, even if you don't agree with me.

I mean listening to those within the group's affected. So not people like me, actual natives. Especially natives who are fans of hockey and/or the Blackhawks.

Most people just discount their feelings completely. Say quit complaining, that was a long time ago. I'm honoring you. Etc.
 

Marotte Marauder

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Aug 10, 2008
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Come on ... you don't mean that. I know it's an anonymous message board ... but even then there are limits. The Civil War was based on that type of sentiment.

That quote is what separates the savage from the civil. I hope we evolved as a culture / creature and are beyond this. Unfortunately, when I look at the current global landscape ... we really haven't.

When stakes are high enough, everyone becomes a savage.
 

DisgruntledHawkFan

Blackhawk Down
Jun 19, 2004
57,277
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I'm perfectly okay with telling Native Americans what they should and shouldn't be offended by. If they want it banned, then they should of won the war.

I'm tired of hearing people constantly complaining. I just tune it out now.

I mean, what? Just because the victor's write the history books it doesn't make what they did just or moral.
 

HockeySauce

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Jan 26, 2011
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Where I work we have lots of First Nations people come in, and (it's tough to gauge how often) some come in wearing Blackhawks apparel.

You'll have a couple studies on some kids that identify "poorly" with logos like the Indians or Redskins, and then of course you have a couple very loud voices that oppose the use of certain logos and lump the Hawks in with those teams.. But I would bet the majority of First Nations people don't care - especially as it pertains to the Blackhawks name/logo.

Now, IF a majority of people in those communities do find the imagery/name of the Blackhawks harmful, then by all means change it. At the end of the day, it's just a logo; the Hawks will be fine if they change it. But I don't think that's the case.
 

No Fun Shogun

34-38-61-10-13-15
May 1, 2011
56,408
13,265
Illinois
Considering that it's just a special interest group making a proposal, I don't see this as being a very likely situation to pass regardless. It probably is just stemming from a massive uptick in folks wearing Blackhawks gear in the GTA since the team became a mini-dynasty.

And let's not be too quick with just resorting to insults when it comes to people with differing opinions.
 

Venthon

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Nov 11, 2014
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C'mon, guys, enough with the attacks. Address this with some civility or don't address it at all. Comments like "Well they should have won the war" are completely and unjustifiably wrong to make in ANY context.

That said, I feel there could be some real value in having this conversation. Hell, I'm partially Native myself on my mothers side. Her middle name is Sioux, our family carries a bit of pride in that connection.

That said, outrage from some (I'm assuming here, as it's often the case in the states) group of overly sensitive white people doesn't tell me much is really going on in this story. I get being offended by the moniker Redskins, it's a slur much like any other, and it IS disrespectful, as is Chief Wahoo. By the way, to the poster that earlier mentioned the Pekin team, you're spot on (I live about 40 minutes away.) They were called the Pekin Chinks. They're now the Pekin Dragons, and if I recall correctly, their logo is/was a basic mock up of a paper dragon from the festivals, wonder where that idea came from.

That being said, I don't think the Blackhawks are on the list of teams that are being racially insensitive. The name is based on an actual War Chief, rather than a group of people, that had a significant history in the state. The original owner served in the Blackhawk divison of the military, likely named as such after hearing tales of the War Chief himself. Most were NOT warlike people, though internal struggles for power weren't infrequent. They led their people as something to aspire to. Rarely WANTING war, but when it came to their people they would fight like junkyard dogs to keep them whole. Leadership, bravery, perseverance, sacrifice. THAT is a War Chief. That was Black Hawk. Though none could vouch for the truth of any of these things, these are the stories that were told. Stories, often told in truth, tend to distort over time, becoming larger than the actual truth of the matter, distorting into myths and legends. The fearless leader, the relentless protector, that's something most would want their team to be known as. Hell, for all we know the leader of that battalion said he had personally KILLED the man and taken the moniker for his infantry unit.

Sorry, that got a little bit on the ramble side of things, Native American history is kind of a hobby of mine.

TL;DR: The name, to me, is more a celebration of a people we are sadly left with so few of. The logo, I mean, sure it's a "generic Native face," but the chief complaints from actual Native groups isn't really usually just the logo, that's just where the media tends to take it. It's the attitude behind the owners that just throw up their hands and say "Well we had this name when I bought the team, so get over it" even when it's something that's clearly in poor taste. I'm sorry, but the Indians and the Redskins aren't doing themselves any favors by using terms that are antiquated at best, and downright blatantly insensitive at worst. I don't think it's disrespectful, and I'm willing to have open, honest discourse on that matter.
 
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BHFan

Registered User
Aug 9, 2015
131
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There's a reason that the Hawks have a hawk for a mascot rather than someone dressed up as a native American chief. I think a lot of people would find that offensive. I suspect the team realizes that there may come a point when they need to make a change and unlike the Redskins, they can still maintain the name and change the logo. A black hawk still makes a pretty nice looking logo.

d804fc60-8400-11e5-a436-57a46fb16bf8_CTErysxWcAA_Xsv-jpg-large.jpeg
 

Venthon

Registered User
Nov 11, 2014
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There's a reason that the Hawks have a hawk for a mascot rather than someone dressed up as a native American chief. I think a lot of people would find that offensive. I suspect the team realizes that there may come a point when they need to make a change and unlike the Redskins, they can still maintain the name and change the logo. A black hawk still makes a pretty nice looking logo.

d804fc60-8400-11e5-a436-57a46fb16bf8_CTErysxWcAA_Xsv-jpg-large.jpeg

Though, their mascot IS named "Tommy Hawk" That's a great logo though, granted I'm biased. :laugh:
 

Gurth

Registered User
Feb 22, 2010
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TLEH

Pronounced T-Lay
Feb 28, 2015
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I live in Florida and went to Florida State. We are the Seminoles, and had a damn Seminole ride onto the field before every home game and throw a flaming spear at the 50 yard line. No one from the Seminole tribe complained about the name or anything, they embrace it and love coming to the games.
 

TeddyGoalsevelt

Duke of Earl
Jun 6, 2015
325
0
The Region
A black hawk still makes a pretty nice looking logo.

d804fc60-8400-11e5-a436-57a46fb16bf8_CTErysxWcAA_Xsv-jpg-large.jpeg

That has the potential to be a pretty sweet logo. Ideally I'd like it to be a little less "busy", but it's a pretty good base. Just clean it up a bit and you'd really have something. Maybe incorporate something more realistic like this:

http://clipart4mascots.com/wp-conte...ack-hawk-logo-clipart-vector-mascot-image.jpg

A hybrid of the two with the traditional feathers behind the head would be pretty great I think. Or just use an actual depiction of Sauk leader Black Hawk :dunno: No idea. I'm not pretending I have the answers. There are plenty of talented people in Chicago, maybe they make something completely different. Either way, this is years and years away from happening. The "Indian head" isn't going anywhere any time soon. And I'm fine with that, until we get enough people asking for us to change it.
 

jaric1862

Registered User
Jan 14, 2014
4,027
1,773
huh? people aren't wearing this logo to try and offend/discriminate against aboriginals, they simply are sporting a professional hockey teams logo. If people have such an issue with the logo why dont they lobby to try and change the logo, and not ban the paraphernalia which the fans wear, that wont do anything.
 

TeddyGoalsevelt

Duke of Earl
Jun 6, 2015
325
0
The Region
huh? people aren't wearing this logo to try and offend/discriminate against aboriginals, they simply are sporting a professional hockey teams logo. If people have such an issue with the logo why dont they lobby to try and change the logo, and not ban the paraphernalia which the fans wear, that wont do anything.

Yeah, that's a weird tactic for sure. I'm not one for banning things. I'd like to have a proactive discussion that brings about real change, rather than have a reactive, "you can't wear this!" ban. It does nothing to get at the root of the issue, and all it does is make people upset and less likely to work with you in the future.

So I totally agree. If you think it's racist, take it up with the teams. Unless it's a legitimate slur, like redskin, you should be able to wear it in school.
 

x Tame Impala

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Hold on. The rest of your post is totally understandable.

But if you say the Redskins logo could be racist, how is it any different than the Blackhawks logo? They're very similar. It's the name and behavior of the organizations that is the difference.

The Redskins team name is a racial slur and their logo reflects that. The Hawks logo isn't a fair comparison whatsoever. His skin isn't red, he doesn't have Wahoo-esque buck teeth, and he's not scalping some pilgrim. Inaccuracy isn't automatically offensive, especially since Chief Blackhawk was around over 150 years ago. The Hawks logo and team name is meant to honor someone who inspired the first owner of the team.

If you want to talk about respecting other people's cultures, I've learned more about the Chief and the Souk nation because of my favorite hockey team than I ever would've learned had McLaughlin not decided to adopt this piece of history in an honorable way.
 
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