No DD? Chucky!! 4-3 Habs

[Patccmoi]

Right, this is what I am saying, this is a bad team. Moving Chucky around doesn't change that. It might give him bigger stats, but it doesn't change the end results.

Think about it though. If it gives him bigger stats, while not taking anything away from someone else (because they were NOT producing at all), it results in more goals for the team. And considering how many 1 goal (or 2 goals because of EN) we lost without ever getting loser points, it could very well be the difference with still being in a playoff position or not.

Just spread 5 extra goals over those 3 months and we could be 6-8 points ahead of what we have now and everything would be different. Not mentioning that if the team was in a real playoff race (not just hypothetically mathematically we're not done yet) it might have motivated some of the vets who clearly looked like they packed it in on numerous occasions, which could've resulted in more wins.

League is really tight, it doesn't take much to make a significant difference in where a team ends up. And keeping your best offensive player with bad linemates while giving all the best offensive opportunities to one of your worse can certainly tilt the scale. Not as a single factor, but it's not neglectable either.

 

[PaulD]

And as I've said continously....production doesn't always measure impact

It's great that he has 46pts in 67 games, if you think that his season based purely on those numbers, was in any way a season worth championing, then I don't know what to say????

Like I said, now that he's playing what he should be playing 14-15 mins per game....we'll see how his production keeps up

Again, no goals in his last 12 and 4 secondary assists in that same span

Might be tough to get to that magical 60pt threshold you keep harping about.

Also, I don't need to exaggerate anything

1 ES goal in 35 games is bad for a guy playing 18-20 mins a night

There's no hiding from that....this Stat wouldn't be acceptable for anyone else on this team BUT Plekanec, he can get away with it

Bang on !

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

And as I've said continously....production doesn't always measure impact

It's great that he has 46pts in 67 games, if you think that his season based purely on those numbers, was in any way a season worth championing, then I don't know what to say????

I'm not the one basing anything purely off those numbers. That's you. I value his reliable execution of the small plays, his ability to play both sides of the puck at a decently high level of skill and dependability, and his hockey IQ as one of our smarter players. And I value low maintenance veterans with a very professional daily approach, too.

Like I said, now that he's playing what he should be playing 14-15 mins per game....we'll see how his production keeps up

Again, no goals in his last 12 and 4 secondary assists in that same span

Might be tough to get to that magical 60pt threshold you keep harping about.

No one harps on about 60 points being some "threshold" like you do. It simply gets pointed out to you that 60 is roughly his average, even over his best years, and he's not even far off it now, in his "worst" year.

Also, I don't need to exaggerate anything

Certainly doesn't stop you though, does it.

1 ES goal in 35 games is bad for a guy playing 18-20 mins a night

There's no hiding from that....this Stat wouldn't be acceptable for anyone else on this team BUT Plekanec, he can get away with it

He averages under 19 per night. Not even a 20 min/night guy on average. But you're really over-inflating the importance of this stat that you've made up here. Anze Kopitar only scored 1 ES goal between a Nov. 12 game against Anaheim last season, and a Jan. 12 game against Toronto - an exactly two month stretch (spanning roughly 30 games), for example. I severely doubt that you've even checked to see if any other players have any other such blips on their statistical radar over the past 5 years or so. Too much work, and you might be forced to temper your hatred for Plekanec a bit. Scary thoughts.

They shipped Kopitar out of town right away, of course... Had enough of the bum...

 

[PaulD]

DD 35 play off games. 2 goals. (3 with the empty netter)

2 assists in December and remains on top line/pp.

Moved to the point on the pp.

Top line center? Only with a challenged brain dead coach could that be so.

Like someone said earlier, "you cant write this stuff"

 

[417]

I'm not the one basing anything purely off those numbers. That's you. I value his reliable execution of the small plays, his ability to play both sides of the puck at a decently high level of skill and dependability, and his hockey IQ as one of our smarter players. And I value low maintenance veterans with a very professional daily approach, too.



No one harps on about 60 points being some "threshold" like you do. It simply gets pointed out to you that 60 is roughly his average, even over his best years, and he's not even far off it now, in his "worst" year.



Certainly doesn't stop you though, does it.



He averages under 19 per night. Not even a 20 min/night guy on average. But you're really over-inflating the importance of this stat that you've made up here. Anze Kopitar only scored 1 ES goal between a Nov. 12 game against Anaheim last season, and a Jan. 12 game against Toronto - an exactly two month stretch (spanning roughly 30 games), for example. I severely doubt that you've even checked to see if any other players have any other such blips on their statistical radar over the past 5 years or so. Too much work, and you might be forced to temper your hatred for Plekanec a bit. Scary thoughts.

They shipped Kopitar out of town right away, of course... Had enough of the bum...

Are we seriously going to start comparing the differences between Tomas Plekanec and Anze Kopitar???

Give me a break!!!! Again, production is one thing, impact is a whole other

To compare the impact that Kopitar has on a game compared to Plekanec is laughable....Kopitar could go godless in 12 games or have a stretch of 1 ES goal in 35 games like Plekanec, but I guarantee you, his impact on the ice will be felt much more than Plekanec

Let's not even address the fact that in that timespan you provided for Kopitar (Nov 12 to Jan 12) which equalled 26 games....

Yeah, he may have only scored 1 ES goals in that period, but he also had 30pts in those 26 games LOL

Come on!

He's been completely invisible for most of this year, I don't know how anyone can deny that, I don't care if he's got 46 pts on the year....he's invisible out there.

You can try to minimize that as you want....but it doesn't change it

But hey, he's due for a multi-point game soon....so I'm sure everything will be alright, perhaps a 2pt night tonight will erase from your memory the fact he's been a ghost since the Tampa Bay game

 

[PaulD]

I'm not the one basing anything purely off those numbers. That's you. I value his reliable execution of the small plays, his ability to play both sides of the puck at a decently high level of skill and dependability, and his hockey IQ as one of our smarter players. And I value low maintenance veterans with a very professional daily approach, too.



No one harps on about 60 points being some "threshold" like you do. It simply gets pointed out to you that 60 is roughly his average, even over his best years, and he's not even far off it now, in his "worst" year.




Certainly doesn't stop you though, does it.



He averages under 19 per night. Not even a 20 min/night guy on average. But you're really over-inflating the importance of this stat that you've made up here. Anze Kopitar only scored 1 ES goal between a Nov. 12 game against Anaheim last season, and a Jan. 12 game against Toronto - an exactly two month stretch (spanning roughly 30 games), for example. I severely doubt that you've even checked to see if any other players have any other such blips on their statistical radar over the past 5 years or so. Too much work, and you might be forced to temper your hatred for Plekanec a bit. Scary thoughts.

They shipped Kopitar out of town right away, of course... Had enough of the bum...

Yes and Crosby had a "blip" this season. I see. DD, Crosby, Kopitar....they all have their "blips"

Put Chucky back on the wing as soon as our version of "Kopitar" comes back from injury. Maybe the kings would be interested in a straight up trade DD for Kops ? Let Michelle handle the negotiating.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

Are we seriously going to start comparing the differences between Tomas Plekanec and Anze Kopitar???

Give me a break!!!! Again, production is one thing, impact is a whole other

No, we're back to your framing and presentation of stats without any perspective on whether what you're highlighting is nearly as important or damning as you'd like everyone to believe. I simply provided one example among many, which are easy enough to find if you actually look.

He's been completely invisible for most of this year, I don't know how anyone can deny that, I don't care if he's got 46 pts on the year....he's invisible out there.

Everyone is invisible when you don't actually watch the games... This team is playing better with Galchenyuk/Plekanec as 1A/1B than Plekanec/DD as 1A/1B, even with Plekanec babysitting guys like Matteau and Byron on occasion in much higher roles than they "deserve" in order to give Galchenyuk the opportunity he deserves (and has deserved). That much should be obvious to anyone watching.

 

[PaulD]

DD has 3 goals in 35 play off games.

(Little Johnson of the lightning scored 3 goals in a play off game in 22 minutes).

Talk all you want , nobody is gonna sell me that DD should be anywhere near the first line center position.

To say the Habs are so bad that relieving him of that duty would not make a difference in the win column is ludicrous.

Not knocking DD, he is a hockey player and will go where his coach puts him.

Therrien is the idiot in all this.

But the entire hockey world already knows this. There are those that will say it. Those that won't.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Right, this is what I am saying, this is a bad team. Moving Chucky around doesn't change that. It might give him bigger stats, but it doesn't change the end results.

It's not a bad team by any stretch. It's a good team with some holes, injuries and a terrible coach.

Now you complain about the math? You can't have it both ways, this isn't very mathematical.

Not sure where I "complained about math" here...

That's what I'm saying. We agree, so are we both wrong? Where we disagree: I think the rest of team is worse than their evaluation by fans, pundits, and unfortunately, management.

No, you are wrong.

You said the secondary scoring wasn't producing... it was. The problem was the primary scoring. And that could've easily been fixed and we'd have been much better off. Instead we gave the most ice to a guy who managed 2 assists in a month.

Thanks for agreeing with me that secondary scoring is bad or inexistent (ie. this team is bad).

Congratulations on turning an argument into a Tilt a Whirl ride... Sorry Mr. Checker but I don't feel like doing the Twist.

First, this lineup has been used improperly. If it were used better, we'd score more. I don't see how anyone can dispute this with a straight face.

Secondly, this team is good. The blueline is as good as any in the league and the forwards have some holes on the wing. But we've got good depth down the middle - WHEN IT IS DEPLOYED PROPERLY.

Max, Chuck, Gallagher is a solid first line. There's no reason why we couldn't have done that or put a guy like Carr or Ghetto up there to balance things out.

Max Chuck Carr
Ghetto Plek Gallagher
DLR Eller Weisse

Something like that would've made a hell of a lot more sense. Doesn't mean we don't have holes up front but.... MT made things far, far worse.

Chucky might be our best offensive forward, we've known that. He was never the problem. The problem is those who should've been the secondary scorers were played as primary scorer while not even worthy of being secondary scorers...

His usage IS the problem. You keep talking about the secondary scoring... guess what? Our secondary scoring was better than our first line.

You can't have a guy like DD suck up all that time and not produce and expect to win esp when you've got rookie goalies. Put Chuck at the top and all of a sudden we'd have a first line that can actually score.

You can hypothesize in 10000 ways, doesn't make you right and anyone else wrong. Hypotheticals makes for humiliating arguments in real debates. Facts, sticks to facts.

?????

This is what I wrote and you replied to here: We scored more than 3 goals once in the entire month. 11 times we scored 2 goals or less. Offense wasn't the problem? Really?

Those are.... FACTS!!!!!

Playing young guys in key roles expose the defense more. Playing old guys in offensive role expose the offense more. It's the same results, because the underlying truth is, this is a bad team, without Price. (With Price we are "average+", and we can sneak in when Price goes from star to phenom).

How many teams in the league play their best players on the 3rd line? How many teams play their fourth best center on the first?

Yeah, this is a bad team with a few stars.

That is a load of BS. This is a good team that has holes and a terrible coach.

When we're healthy we have arguably the best goalie/player in the league. We've got arguably the best blueliner in the league. We've got one of the best goalscorers in the league... apart from them we've got nothing? Nonsense.

Both Chuck and Gallagher are legit first line talents.
Eller and Pleks are strong two way centers.
Markov, Beau, Petry round out an extremely strong top 4.

That is a strong team and we should be doing a whole lot better than we have. No way this team should be doing worse than the freaking Sabers. Instead we get HALF the points they do? Ridiculous.

Everybody need to understand what the NHL team is at this point. Every team is 1-3 players away from being overwhelming for everybody else (it's an exponential curve vs. a linear one). With Price, we are very close to having this, without him we are not. If you add to that rapidly depreciating assets (Pleks, Markov, DD, Emelin etc.), we go from 1 guy missing to 3 guys missing and we are toast. Not divesting the assets that are depreciating and promoting the assets on am upward momentum (Chucky, Beaulieu) is what amplifies the problem further. This is all Bergevin, not Therrien. Bergevin could have buried Desharnais a long time ago. Now do I like Therrien? No I don't! He's just another one of Bergevin's decisions.

If you remove Price we won't win any cups, I don't disagree. But we shouldn't be by far the worst in the league either. I don't care how bad that goaltending is.

The coach is one person. I never believe one person is in control of these decisions. Even Babcock ("best coach in the world") and Holland in Detroit have discussed how Holland would influence player utilization. The proof is in the pudding.

It certainly is. All you need to do is look at what he did in Pittsburgh to see this. When he gets fired that team's out of the playoffs and bottom third everywhere (sound familiar?) and 30th in shots. New guy comes in, the team goes top ten everywhere and wins the cup.

That wasn't coincidence. We have the worst coach in the league running the show and it's absolutely hilarious to see just how badly he's misjudged Galchenyuk. And the sad part is that we wouldn't have seen it without the injuries. It's a freaking joke.

 

[BLONG7]

I don't dispute the bold parts. But my point is there was absolutely no evidence of what you're saying on the ice, given the way the guys were playing. There wasn't any lack of effort, and they all followed the game plan, no matter if it was good or bad. That is not "losing the room" at all.

If you want to see a team giving up on their coach and not making the efforts because of a "lost room", look no further than what was going on in Pittsburgh and Minni earlier this season. The players weren't even trying hard. Something that never happened in Montreal.

Only because of the character of most of the guys in the room...they care, and still tried, but you can't tell me that it hasn't been deflating for them...hence the results...no matter how you slice it they all know their coach is a clown...3 months of crappy game plans, and handing ice time to the wrong guys....over and over...

An injury to one midget, seems to have shown this...

Most nights, we win in spite of our coach, no doubt in my mind...

 

[SOLR]

Think about it though. If it gives him bigger stats, while not taking anything away from someone else (because they were NOT producing at all), it results in more goals for the team. And considering how many 1 goal (or 2 goals because of EN) we lost without ever getting loser points, it could very well be the difference with still being in a playoff position or not.

Think about it a second, if the earth is round it's round, it's not flat.

I'm all for Chucky getting more production, but moving the solution around doesn't fix the actual problem: there are not enough solutions overall.

 

[417]

No, we're back to your framing and presentation of stats without any perspective on whether what you're highlighting is nearly as important or damning as you'd like everyone to believe. I simply provided one example among many, which are easy enough to find if you actually look.



Everyone is invisible when you don't actually watch the games... This team is playing better with Galchenyuk/Plekanec as 1A/1B than Plekanec/DD as 1A/1B, even with Plekanec babysitting guys like Matteau and Byron on occasion in much higher roles than they "deserve" in order to give Galchenyuk the opportunity he deserves (and has deserved). That much should be obvious to anyone watching.

Hey not my fault YOU brought up Kopitar's stats in comparison to Plekanec

I just put them in perspective for you....

You legit sat there and said that Kopitar had 1ES goal from Nov 12 to January 12 in response to me pointing out the FACT that Plekanec had 1 ES goal in a 35 game span at one point.

Deliberately or perhaps, you didn't know, that he also contributed 30 pts in those 26 games during that span

I mean come on...then you accuse ME of framing things???

Try again