Nikolai Lemtyugov

Discussion in 'International Tournaments' started by Prussian_Blue, Dec 30, 2005.

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  1. Prussian_Blue

    Prussian_Blue Registered User

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    ...is quietly having a very nice WJC for Russia so far.

    Tied with Malkin for most goals on Russian team (3). Has one of their three game-winners. Scored twice yesterday vs. Latvia, including the game-winner.

    Not bad for a 219th-overall pick, eh? But, remember, the Blues can't identify talent or draft worth a lick...

    P_B

    :bow: :blues
     
  2. yentlmania

    yentlmania Registered User

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    Since '03: Aaltonen, Stempniak, Birner, Polak, Drazy and now Lemtugov all in the later rounds, all looking like solid NHL prospects, add in the signing of Wideman, all very positive signs. If Jarmo leaves as part of the 'new' ownership change, it will be a dark day for the Blues.
     
  3. Chaos

    Chaos And the winner is...

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    You know, I see you and some other Blues fans say this all the time, but I dont know where it's coming from. When has anyone ever actually said this?
     
  4. Prussian_Blue

    Prussian_Blue Registered User

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    It's a perception, based on the Blues 29th-overall ranking as a development organization this year -- a complete joke -- and the failure of sites like this one to acknowledge the great strides forward that the Blues have made in the prospect development area in recent years.

    P_B

    :bow: :blues
     
  5. Chaos

    Chaos And the winner is...

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    And why shouldn't they be ranked 29th on this site? Exactly what 'great strides' have they made? Have you ever stopped to think that maybe, just maybe their prospect pool isn't as good as you and some other Blues fans think?
     
  6. Prussian_Blue

    Prussian_Blue Registered User

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    They shouldn't be ranked 29th because they've picked players like Lemtyugov. No one -- including me -- had ever heard of this kid before three days ago, but Jarmo Kekalainen found him and got him into the Blues system.

    I've seen several players hyped beyond belief here based on a good showing at the World Juniors -- Kostitsyn (sp?) is just one example -- so it's certainly not unreasonable to think that a good showing by Lemtyugov and TJ Oshie would get the Blues some props.

    I don't see 'em.

    An organization that has the 29th-best group of prospects out of 30 generally does not produce a Calder winner. The year after Jackman came out of the Blues' farm club to establish himself as an NHL defenseman and Calder winner, the organization dropped in the rankings here.

    How does it happen that an organization produces a Calder winner -- and a stay-at-home defenseman, no less, a position about as rare as hens' teeth on the list of recent past Calder winners -- and becomes less worthy as a developer of players?

    The Blues have had a number of NHL rookies and first-year pros making contributions this year -- Wideman, McClement, Bacashihua, Stempniak, Hoggan, Sejna -- but because they don't get the nationwide hype that players in other organizations get, no one knows about them.

    If Dennis Wideman were playing as well for an Eastern Conference team, or for Detroit, as he's playing for St. Louis, he'd be on the short list for Calder candidates right now. Guaranteed.

    As for "great strides," the most important of those was getting Jarmo Kekalainen on board as Director of Scouting. In three drafts with the Blues, he's broiught the aforementioned Lemtyugov and Oshie to the organization, as well as Stempniak, Marek Schwarz (who was widely touted as the best goalie available in 2004 -- until the Blues drafted him, then all of a sudden, the emphasis in every story is on his shortcomings instead of his potential), Carl Soderberg (similar to Schwarz -- touted as a possible first-rounder until selected by the Blues, then dismissed and ignored), David Backes (carrying the Minnesota State-Mankato program almost entirely on his own), Viktor Alexandrov (a skilled player who's played very well since age 17 in the Russian Superleague, and who'd be a Top 50 prospect if in anyone else's organization), and more.

    But you go ahead and continue to be stuck in 1994, when Keenan was the GM and the Blues' entire farm system consisted of Mike Buzak, Tyler Harlton, Fred Knipscheer, Maxim Bets and Alexander Vasilevskii.

    The perception of the Blues as a poor developer of talent was deserved then... but they've evolved and grown by leaps and bounds as an organization since then, with no acknowledgement from this site or from most of the rest of the mainstream hockey media.

    P_B

    :bow: :blues
     
  7. Slats432

    Slats432 Registered User

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    Yeah...just like Sejna, Shkotov, Zakharov before him....this is another GREAT prospect drafted by the powerhouse Blues scouting staff.

    Maybe let him turn out before you brag about how great he is.
     
  8. Prussian_Blue

    Prussian_Blue Registered User

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    Sejna wasn't drafted.

    Shkotov and Zakharov haven't been given a reasonable chance to excel in this organization because of Larry Pleau's preference for Americans and grinders over skilled Euros.

    Are you trying to say that Jarmo Kekalainen isn't a good drafter and talent evaluator? His track record in Ottawa, at least, would disprove that statement.

    And where, exactly, did I "brag" about how "great" Lemtyugov is? I pointed out that he's playing well, which he is, and that at this point, he appears to be a steal as a 219th-overall pick.

    Maybe get your facts straight before floating me a raft of you-know-what...

    P_B

    :bow: :blues
     
  9. Chaos

    Chaos And the winner is...

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    So because a 9th round pick has had a nice start to one WJC tournament, they shouldn't be ranked 29th on this site? I don't know about anyone else, but that doesn't make any sense to me.
    Perhaps you should at least wait until the tournament is over before you start whining about getting props.

    They dropped because Jackman, their top prospect, had graduated. Its common sense.

    And how many of those are anything special at all? The most points any of those guys have is 8. Is that really anything to be making a fuss about?

    I highly doubt a defenseman with 8 points and a -4 would be getting any Calder hype, no matter the team he was on.

    Perhaps the fact that he stunk it up in the WHL last year has something to do with it.

    Or the fact that he managed to score a whopping 5 points in the SEL last season has something to do with it.
    I dont think a guy with 11 points in 36 games would be a top 50 prospect in any organization. Hell' the Stars have a guy in Perttu Lindgren whose put up 15 points in 31 games as an 18 year old on a bad team, and I'm willing to bet he won't be in any top 50 list, but you don't see me or any other Stars fans *****ing about it.

    I didn't even follow hockey, much less prospects, in 1994, so this comment has no basis whatsoever.

    Maybe in your eyes, but obviously not in the eyes of others.
     
  10. Riggins

    Riggins Registered User

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    St. Louis deserves that 29th prospect ranking. You hadn't heard of Lemtyugov until three days ago, now all of a sudden he is a steal and a great example of why the Blues should be ranked much higher by HF?
     
  11. CH Wizard

    CH Wizard Guest

    Look at the season, he's having in the RSL. The Rsl isn't a junior league...and plus he's having good wjc's.
     
  12. Sniper

    Sniper It's learning...

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    A 219th-overall pick keeping pace with a 2nd-overall pick in a tough world tourny. I think that most people would consider that a decent steal.
     
  13. CuSa_1

    CuSa_1 Registered User

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    I honestly don't even care about the slight given to the Blues and their prospects anymore. I'm finally excited about some of the prospects we have in our system and the overall system we're developing. I can't wait until we load up on early picks after this season.
     
  14. St.Louis sports fan

    St.Louis sports fan Registered User

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    Hf can rate the Blues 29th for all I care, but if the Blues get sold and they fire Pleau and Kitchen and get some younger blood in Management to go with Kek. and are content with building from within then in three or four years I bet there won't be 29 other teams that will get as much production out of their system then the Blues will with Backes-knock on him was his skating,but he's improved that(2nd line power-forward) Soderberg-very strong along the boards and doesn't mind mucking it up with a good skill set(2nd or 3rd liner) Oshie-I'm going to refrain from getting to biased here (at worst 3rd line energy penalty killer-could surprise some as he gets stronger.) Zack Fitzgerald- He plays alot like Jackman does.(5th or 6th d-man physical) Schwarz-very inconsistent,but still has a chance to be a starter. Barulin-Schwarz' stock is going down, but Barulin's is going up could surprise, but first pro-year will show. Polak-another two-way def. who will play if he comes over. Robin Jonsson-battled cancer and IMO is ready for the jump to NA. These are just the guys I think will make it for sure(just speculating). Then there are guys like Ben Bishop who's the starting goalie on Maine, Lemtyogov who has some skill, Aaltonen, Fredriksson to name a few more. I'm also discounting Lynch, Woywitka, and Byrne who could crack the lineup as well. So IMO the 29th ranking is based on not having any blue-chip top 15 prospects, but in the long run the system will pan out.
     
  15. Sniper

    Sniper It's learning...

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    Unfortunatly, the Blues will always rank towards the bottom of the prospect chart for the simple reason that we haven't developed any decent forward prospects in a few years. We can produce defencemen (Jackman, Backman, Wideman) and goalies (Sanford, Cash, Divis) all day long, but until we get a few 'sexy' forwards who are actually given a chance to play.

    That being said, I think a good showing at the WJCs will help turn a few heads, but I still don't see us as being higher than 20th next year. Even if we drafted Kessel, this hype would instantly go from 'greast scoring prospect' to 'marginal chip-in grinder who doesn't play well with other teammates.'

    Irony is, 'a marginal chip-in grinder' is very well what kessel (or toews for that matter) could become under the questionable and at times laughable forward prospect developmental regime of Larry Pleau.
     
  16. Irish Blues

    Irish Blues Worth waiting for :)

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    Why should the Blues be ranked higher than 29th? Well, we had this debate previously where I pointed out how teams previously ranked below the Blues suddenly made huge jumps despite losing players off the prospect list, the Blues lost no one of real consequence and went from 22nd in May 2005 to 29th in November. Several people agreed the Blues got slighted, but apparently many either missed that discussion or think we're ranting about nothing.

    Do Blues prospects get slighted in general? I'll give four examples:

    T.J. Oshie - you know, the guy the Blues took 24th this year and got savaged by the draft analysts for taking? He's only looked *extremely* impressive thus far in his freshman season at UND with 11 goals and 10 assists in 20 games. He's been UND's leading scorer much of the year, and has been praised highly by many people for his play and work ethic. But when the Blues drafted him, many people had the usual :shakehead response. I'm sure many people *still* have that response because Oshie isn't on the #1 line for the U.S. at the WJC despite the talent the team has.

    Marek Schwarz - was *very highly* touted going into the 2004 draft, people couldn't believe he dropped to the Blues at 17 and the Blues earned rave reviews initially for the pick (which was regarded as a steal by many). He comes over to North America, plays one season for the Vancouver Giants (who were in their 3rd year of play as an expansion WHL team), Schwarz having never played in North America, and because he didn't have a GAA of 2.35 and a save percentage of .920, he was roundly dismissed here (including being written off as a bust by a few). According to people who saw Vancouver in the playoffs, Schwarz was the only reason their series went 6 games.

    So yeah - he was a franchise goalie, a can't miss guy - until the Blues drafted him and he played his first season in North America trying to adjust to the style of play and smaller ice rink here; then he's a bum, a stiff, a bust, and mediocre talent at best.

    Carl Soderberg - ask the people in Sweden who watch him; they think he could hold his own in the Elite League. He's been the leading scorer in Tier II much of the season, and according to the people on the Swedish board he's going to be a top-6 forward in the NHL. But around here? (crickets) Guys from Sweden drafted by other teams who've done less thus far in their careers are getting more hype, Soderberg isn't even an afterthought to many.

    David Backes - start a thread on Backes and ask people who've seen him what they think. Several people have said if he was on Minnesota, Michigan, UND, or any other high-profile college team, everyone would know who he was. Instead, he's on Minnesota State-Mankato. He's been described as a future power forward who has great hands and plays with a chip on his shoulder, and again - people who've been around the game and who've seen him play say he's a future top-6 forward.

    As P_B mentioned, guys like Zakharov and Shkotov never got a fair shake here for whatever reason - it wasn't because they didn't have talent (Shkotov has played very well in Russia since going back over). Yeah, you can criticize the Blues for other prospects who were highly touted in the past and busted out (anyone else remember Denny Felsner, Roman Vopat, Dave Roberts and Denis Chasse?) and I'm not saying they should be ranked in the top-10 or even top-15 on the prospect rankings - but 29th?

    Colorado has gutted its prospect pipeline trying to get a Cup each year for the last few years and went from 30th to 26th on the basis of adding Yan Stasny and Ryan Stoa; Detroit has Grigorenko back from injury but according to the write-ups here only added Johan Franzen (who was drafted in a previous year) and they went from 25th to 23rd. The Blues lost Jay McClement to the NHL and later Zakharov left to go back to Belarus (but that was *after* the rankings had been released), plus Shkotov was in Russia (where he was when the May 2005 rankings came out) but added Oshie, Scott Jackson, Jeff Woywitka and Doug Lynch and still dropped 7 spots.

    So either one of two things happened - either we got slighted badly in the November rankings, or in May 2005 we were overrated at 22. Even if you say we were overrated in May, ... 29th? Really? I think there's some basis when we (and others) say there's a bias when it comes to some prospects and some team's prospects.
     
  17. 12# Peter Bondra

    12# Peter Bondra Registered User

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    BTW, Colorado got Paul Stastny, not Yan.
    Secondly, we got 4 good forwards (Hensick, Durand, Stastny and Stoa) and had Svatos + Budaj after a good AHL season (Budaj, not Svatos) and thats why we jumped.

    2ndly, People shouldnt take HF rankings too seriously. We were 30th and yet produced Liles, Svatos and Budaj along the way whilst great prospects like Nedorost have busted later on.

    3rdly, I think the topic should go back to Lemtyugov rather than "Are the Blues over/under rated on HF system) or go on the prospects board to discuss it. This is the WJC board, not the prospects board.
     
  18. Slats432

    Slats432 Registered User

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    Reread your first post with the tongue in cheek "Not bad for a 219th-overall pick, eh? But, remember, the Blues can't identify talent or draft worth a lick..."

    That is bragging about his success.

    That said, the Blues deserve their ranking because as much as Blues fans like to talk about the success of their prospects, there hasn't been a lot of success historically...and if you like, go and refresh your memory....
    http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/teams/dr000036.htmlj

    As for the future...
    http://www.hockeysfuture.com/team/st_louis_blues

    What does the cupboard look like? How many top 6 forwards are in the group? How many bluechippers?

    Even the best of the best, Marek Schwarz, the top prospect was given this statement by McKeen's (Which isn't biased against Blues prospects like HF right?)

    Underperforming Czech import has chosen to return against the wishes of the St. Louis Blues and to return to his native country and turn pro with Sparta Prague of the Czech Elite League .. let in an alarming amount of long shots, even a few from near center ice .. has a good, but not great playoff series versus the Kelowna Rockets and was regularly upstaged by Derek Yeomans at the other end of the ice .. vaunted glove hand appeared to be more of a liability than a strength as he had some questioning his ability to catch and hold on to shots .. very athletic and did show flashes of brilliance, however never seemed to quite get his confidence to the level it was at the World Juniors where he stole the show in nets .. too often took himself out of position by overplaying a shooter .. displayed very weak puck control .. has the skill to become an excellent NHL goalie if given enough time to mature.

    So tell me, what is it that is so great that the Blues shouldn't take their 29th ranking and feel fortunate that they aren't one lower?
     
  19. MOGiLNY

    MOGiLNY Registered User

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    Just because YOU haven't heard of him until 3 days ago, doesn't make Lemtyugov a bad player.
     
  20. Slats432

    Slats432 Registered User

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    Oops...read your post after I posted....absolutely right. :innocent:

    Lemtyugov....so far so good. Hope he keeps it up...nice to see a late rounder perform. :thumbu:
     
  21. Siberian

    Siberian Registered User

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    Lemtyugov has a very similar personality to Ovechkin's. If he gets a trust of a coach or his club he will do his best. I think he can be successfull NHL player.
     
  22. Glen Erickson

    Glen Erickson Registered User

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    I think you have been very observant...

    LEMTYUGOV has been prominent in the two games I have covered here in Kelowna, against Slovakia and Sweden. Certainly some offensive prowess and he plays as physically as any other team mate. Like the majority of the Russian team, he is overshadowed by Malkin's presence.

    LEMTYUGOV has given the Russian team some valuable secondary scoring so far in the tournament...all of which is due to his hard work. I would call it a surprise, but that would be too unfair to the kid. Unfortunately, too many of the media types around here are so enthralled with Malkin, the other major contributors are not receiving a fair representation of their contributions.

    Also, KULEMIN (undrafted) has played very well along side Malkin...they also play on the same line in the Russian Super League.

    RADULOV, VOLOSHENKO and OGORODNIKOV were to be the line behind Malkin to establish scoring depth for the RUssians, but I believe LEMTYUGOV has performed better...more consistently.

    G. Erickson
    HF Staff
    @ the WJC in Kelowna
     
  23. hockeyfan125

    hockeyfan125 Registered User

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    In regards to Schwarz, from what I saw of him in his time as a Giant, he has tremendous natural talent, but has a TON of holes. He was very weak posiltionally, and relied on his natural ability to make a lot of saves (won't work in higher leagues). His glove hand was also pretty crappy. Again, he stole a few games, but from what I saw he was nothing to write home about (although young goalies have their ups and downs, and generally take quite a bit longer to develop fully).
     
  24. Metallian*

    Metallian* Registered User

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    This is entirely not true. I've been following Lemtyugov's play since at least late last summer. The guy has always shown promise, it's just this site that ranked him so low.

    And I'm from Toronto and never even really get to see RSL play, so don't think I'm from Russia and have an inside scoop or whatever.
     
  25. Corto

    Corto Faceless Man

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    HF's rating on Lemtyugov is baaa-aad.

    This guy looked like a future NHLer, no doubt about it.
     
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