Nikita Kucherov vs. Evgeni Malkin

[Offtheboard412]

Most idiotic comment in the whole thread. What separates McDavid is his other worldly skill and vision, combined with a very high HIQ, but to make the comment that a there is no debate is ridiculous. Kuch doesn't have anything like McDavid's skill (2nd round pick, 58th overall) and yet he manages to produce at the level that he does. He has an amazing HIQ but trying to quantify one relative to the other is a fools errand.

Using Kucherov's draft position as proof of his lacking in skills compared to McDavid is just silly. Datsyuk was a 7th round pick does that mean he wasn't one of the most skilled players ever? I don't even disagree with him having the better hockey i.q., but his draft position has zero bearing on it. I do think Kucherov has a better shooting arsenal than McDavid though.

As for Kucherov vs Malkin, it's looking more and more like I have to lean towards Kucherov. At their peaks it's really close, I think Malkin in 11/12 would be right there with Kucherov this year. But truthfully Malkin was a bit of an underachiever for his level of talent. Kucherov's 8 year run since 16/17 is just better than anything Malkin was able to string together. The injuries every year, with the mix of sub par seasons from Malkin is really disappointing in hindsight. He accomplished a lot of great things, but his career really should have been so much more. A guy with his level of talent should have been scoring 100+ points year in and year out.

 

[Icarium]

Malkin was outplayed by Kessel in a playoff run, that says enough.

Yeah, it says that you didn't watch that particular playoff run.

 

[Perfect_Drug]

Strange.

I voted Malkin thinking he would be losing in a landslide to Kuch. Surprised to see the opposite.


Kucherov is like a higher-end Patrick Kane. Absolute wizard with the puck. He is WAY more consistent than Malkin.

Malkin is a strange player though. I couldn't name what his playstyle is. I mean, I see him sometimes go up the middle and deke through everyone like mario, sometimes, I see him power through like Forsberg, or be a Thornton-esque playmaker. Just played whatever type of game that was needed I guess, great at everything.

 

[Bartleby]

Using Kucherov's draft position as proof of his lacking in skills compared to McDavid is just silly. Datsyuk was a 7th round pick does that mean he wasn't one of the most skilled players ever? I don't even disagree with him having the better hockey i.q., but his draft position has zero bearing on it. I do think Kucherov has a better shooting arsenal than McDavid though.

As for Kucherov vs Malkin, it's looking more and more like I have to lean towards Kucherov. At their peaks it's really close, I think Malkin in 11/12 would be right there with Kucherov this year. But truthfully Malkin was a bit of an underachiever for his level of talent. Kucherov's 8 year run since 16/17 is just better than anything Malkin was able to string together. The injuries every year, with the mix of sub par seasons from Malkin is really disappointing in hindsight. He accomplished a lot of great things, but his career really should have been so much more. A guy with his level of talent should have been scoring 100+ points year in and year out.

Draft position is one metric by which we judge and it does matter, and bringing up Datsyuk doesn't pass the smell test. Dats was drafted 7 years after Russians first started coming and there was not nearly the level of scouting of Russian talent than there was 15-20 years later. Certainly he would have gone sooner if there had been.

 

[blundluntman]

I voted Malkin when this poll was started last year but after this season, I'm kinda unsure whether Malkin's peak is that much better than Kucherov's this season.

Sure, Kucherov has better linemates, but he's also outscoring those guys by a 50-point margin. And when you look back at Malkin's 2012 season, you'll see he got more opportunities to play with the Pens' best players with Crosby gone (I only say this because people often argue Malkin carried 3rd liners most of his career). Kunitz and Neal definitely aren't in the same league as Stamkos/Point but they're still 1st liners on most teams; not to mention Letang was playing some of his best hockey that season also. Kucherov had better linemates but the separation he's created combats that argument a bit.

I still find it hard to bet against Malkin but I do think it's a more interesting conversation right now than it was in December. The eye test still leans towards Malkin but his game is also far less cerebral/understated than Kucherov's. You see Malkin have a 4 point night and think to yourself I can't believe he did that. You see Kucherov have a 4 point night and think I didn't even realize he did that.

 

[Offtheboard412]

Draft position is one metric by which we judge and it does matter, and bringing up Datsyuk doesn't pass the smell test. Dats was drafted 7 years after Russians first started coming and there was not nearly the level of scouting of Russian talent than there was 15-20 years later. Certainly he would have gone sooner if there had been.

Players develop at different rates after the draft. It really means very little once you start getting 4-5 years out from draft day. Scouts always miss on guys. Still, there were some scouts who raved about Kucherov's potential, I'm not sure how he was so underrated in that draft. It's incredibly difficult to predict how a player will develop. Kucherov has clearly improved far beyond most of the players rated ahead of him in his draft.

Also aside from his skating, which is far from a weakness, I don't see where Kucherov is particularly lacking in the skill department. He's got fantastic hands and puck skills, an absolute laser beam of a wrist shot with pinpoint accuracy, a really good one timer, and his passing is sublime. He's clearly one of the most skilled players in the league. In fact, when I really think about comparables, Kucherov to me at least is what Kovalev would have looked like if he had an elite hockey mind. Of course his hands aren't on THAT level but his passing is a level above Kovalev.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Kucherov is a rich man's Kane. Not quite on the level of Malkin, at his best.

A rich man’s leading scorer of the 2010s decade and big money playoff performing 3X Stanley Cup champ. Other than Le center master race I don’t even understand how this can be a backhanded compliment.

 

[daver]

A rich man’s leading scorer of the 2010s decade and big money playoff performing 3X Stanley Cup champ. Other than Le center master race I don’t even understand how this can be a backhanded compliment.

Are you saying Kane > Kucherov?

 

[WarriorofTime]

Are you saying Kane > Kucherov?

I’m saying your comment meant to downplay Kucherov made no sense.

 

[daver]

I’m saying your comment meant to downplay Kucherov made no sense.

Peak Malkin > Peak Kucherov. Better?

 

[Mrb1p]

Malkin was a different beast. As good as McDavid is, Im not sure he's that much better than absolute prime Malkin. Of course, McDavid is as good as he is pretty much every year, which is an entirely other can of worms.

 

[2for1PizzaPastuh]

This is Kucherov. Peak Malkin is not Prime Malkin.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Peak Malkin > Peak Kucherov. Better?

Not sure I agree.

NHL & WHA Single Season Leaders and Records for Adjusted Points | Hockey-Reference.com

1. Howie Morenz (190), 2. Wayne Gretzky (170), 3. Cooney Weiland (168), 4. Wayne Gretzky (166), 5. Mario Lemieux (165), 6. Wayne Gretzky (163), 7. Frank Boucher (160), 8. Wayne Gretzky (159), 9. Connor McDavid (158), 10. Wayne Gretzky (156)

www.hockey-reference.com

T-21. Kucherov 141 2023-24
T-43. Kucherov 128 2018-19
T-59. Malkin 122 2011-12
T-86. Malkin 117 2008-09
T-101. Malkin 115 2007-08
T-157. Kucherov 108 2022-23

 

[Despote]

These players should be judged mainly based on their offensive production, as neither offers many dimensions outside of that in their games.

It should be acknowledged that Kucherov's point production relative to his peers, as well as his scoring relative to league average scoring through his prime in 2016-24 is slightly more dominant than Malkin's scoring during his prime (07-15). It should be seen as a slight but a clear gap putting Kucherov ahead as the better offensive player.

 

[authentic]

These players should be judged mainly based on their offensive production, as neither offers many dimensions outside of that in their games.

It should be acknowledged that Kucherov's point production relative to his peers, as well as his scoring relative to league average scoring through his prime in 2016-24 is slightly more dominant than Malkin's scoring during his prime (07-15). It should be seen as a slight but a clear gap putting Kucherov ahead as the better offensive player.

But then you look linemates and Malkin’s ability to drive play and suddenly it’s not so clear anymore. Malkin at his best was a better player than Kucherov is, in the same way that a player like MacKinnon is today, though Malkin is even better than MacKinnon as well.

Kucherov was more consistent season to season yes, but Malkin was simply the better player at his best.

 

[TheGoldenJet]

These players should be judged mainly based on their offensive production, as neither offers many dimensions outside of that in their games.

Perhaps you are talking about the older version of Malkin.

Peak Malkin held his own defensively, he led the league in takeaways and the Russians even tasked him with shadowing Crosby for the national team, a job they have/would never given to Kucherov. Malkin was also a much more physical player than Kucherov so yes, he had more dimensions to his game overall.

 

[reino]

Big knock on Kucherov is that he couldn't and didn't dominate close to this level when NHL was more physical. This is perfect era for him. Malkin on the other could dominate any era no matter how physical and taxing it was. Hell injury prone Malkin's been mostly healthy in this no touch league

 

[WalterLundy]

But then you look linemates and Malkin’s ability to drive play and suddenly it’s not so clear anymore. Malkin at his best was a better player than Kucherov is, in the same way that a player like MacKinnon is today, though Malkin is even better than MacKinnon as well.

Kucherov was more consistent season to season yes, but Malkin was simply the better player at his best.

‘12 Malkin (‘24 levels)
75 GP: 58 G, 68 A, 126 P (1.68)

‘24 Kucherov:
77 GP: 43 G, 96 A, 139 P (1.81)

Obviously Malkin has the better goal scoring and to my eye was more visibly dominant that year but statistically Kucherov definitely does have the edge. I trust your insight and am interested in your opinion here. I want to hear your case as to why 2012 Malkin is better than 2024 Kucherov. There’s more to hockey than just stats and context always needs to be applied in numerous areas. I’m genuinely just interested in it and maybe I’ll agree.

 

[AD1066]

Tough one for me, because of the stylistic differences. Kucherov may be the better scorer, which is pretty incredible, but having seen both at their peaks, Malkin controlled the ice in a way that only Crosby or Ovi could. He wasn't always consistent, but when he was "on", he was probably the most dominant player in the world on those nights. Kucherov is the opposite in some ways, in that he can have games where you hardly notice him on the ice but somehow ends up with 3A.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Big knock on Kucherov is that he couldn't and didn't dominate close to this level when NHL was more physical. This is perfect era for him. Malkin on the other could dominate any era no matter how physical and taxing it was. Hell injury prone Malkin's been mostly healthy in this no touch league

What era are you referring to? Kucherov broke out the instant he has a first line role.

 

[authentic]

‘12 Malkin (‘24 levels)
75 GP: 58 G, 68 A, 126 P (1.68)

‘24 Kucherov:
77 GP: 43 G, 96 A, 139 P (1.81)

Obviously Malkin has the better goal scoring and to my eye was more visibly dominant that year but statistically Kucherov definitely does have the edge. I trust your insight and am interested in your opinion here. I want to hear your case as to why 2012 Malkin is better than 2024 Kucherov. There’s more to hockey than just stats and context always needs to be applied in numerous areas. I’m genuinely just interested in it and maybe I’ll agree.

Kucherov has 12 empty net points so that helps pad the gap a bit, and it reminds me of how Gretzky in 1994 outscored Fedorov by 10 points but it was clear Fedorov was the better overall player at that point, except in this case obviously Malkin isn't on that level of defense and Kucherov is probably a little better there than Gretzky in 1994 but it's noticeable to me that Malkin was the better all around and possession player (advanced metrics back this up) at his best much in the same way Crosby was. They drive play better, a lot of what Brayden Point does in transition is what Crosby and Malkin did themselves while also dominating in the offensive zone. They both also did it consistently with much worse linemates.

 

[GoldenKnight]

Kucherov has 12 empty net points so that helps pad the gap a bit, and it reminds me of how Gretzky in 1994 outscored Fedorov by 10 points but it was clear Fedorov was the better overall player at that point, except in this case obviously Malkin isn't on that level of defense and Kucherov is probably a little better there than Gretzky in 1994 but it's noticeable to me that Malkin was the better all around and possession player (advanced metrics back this up) at his best much in the same way Crosby was. They drive play better, a lot of what Brayden Point does in transition is what Crosby and Malkin did themselves while also dominating in the offensive zone. They both also did it consistently with much worse linemates.

Good post. I believe Kucherov has 14 EN points (so far), but could be mistaken.

 

[Puckstuff]

Great poll, i'm having a real difficult time answering this question.

edit - Ended up choosing Kucherov. The high end offense we're seeing is just to good right now.

 

[Castle8130]

I like Kucherov a little more. I truly believe Kucherov can produce if you surround him with AHLers. If you put him in Bedard's position with the Hawks this year, Kucherov still probably cracks 110 points. Brayden Point is currently sitting 2nd in points on the team with 86 points. Kucherov has 139 lmao. He also produces in the playoffs at a similar clip.

Even the past 6 seasons he has been electric. Not saying Malkin isn't amazing too, but Kucherov takes it to the next level imo

 

[bambamcam4ever]

I like Kucherov a little more. I truly believe Kucherov can produce if you surround him with AHLers. If you put him in Bedard's position with the Hawks this year, Kucherov still probably cracks 110 points. Brayden Point is currently sitting 2nd in points on the team with 86 points. Kucherov has 139 lmao. He also produces in the playoffs at a similar clip.

Even the past 6 seasons he has been electric. Not saying Malkin isn't amazing too, but Kucherov takes it to the next level imo

Point's speed and the threat of his speed opens a lot of things up for Kucherov. And the defense and goalie on TB gives him more leeway to cherrypick.

This is just a weird comment, given that Malkin has dominated with bottom 6 players and won the Art Ross and Conn Smythe, while Kucherov has been blessed with great on ice support almost his entire career