Nikita Kucherov 2023-24 vs Jaromir Jagr 1995-96

[Felidae]

Edit: it's 1995-96, not 86 obviously.

2 of the highest scoring seasons by a winger ever, both in nearly identical scoring environments. 3.11 this year and 3.14 in 1995-96. Which was the better season? I picked this Jagr season due to the statistical similarities individually and leaguewide, but If this ends up being a wash, I will make another poll comparing it to Jagr's 1998-99 season.


Jagr 1995-96
GP82 G62. A87. P149

- 2nd in points, 42 points gap over 10th scorer, 55 points gap over 20th place

-2nd in PPG

-2nd in goals, 15 goals gap over 10th, 23 goal gap over 20th

-3rd in GPG

-95 EVP, 19 more than 2nd best, 34 more than 10th, 37 more than 20th

-4th in hart voting





Kucherov
GP82. G44. A100. P144

-1st in points, 46 points more than 10th best, 56 points more than 20th

-1st in PPG

-10th in goals and GPG

-gauranteed Hart and Pearson finalist

-91 EVP, 28 more than 10th, 36 more than 20th



Jagr's case rests on being the significantly better goalscorer. Jagr's lead over the 3rd best goalscorer in his season is the same as Kucherov's goal scoring lead over 20th place.

The argument against him is he had significantly more support. He played with Lemieux on the PP, who led the league in virtually every statistical category while missing nearly 20 games.

Beyond that, he was also centered by Francis, who finished 4th in scoring while being one of the best two way players in the game, and Nedved, who finished 14th in scoring.

Lastly, the team finished 2nd in the east, and led the league in G/GP and PP%


In comparison, Kucherov's highest scoring teammate is Point, who he finished 54 points ahead of, and is 16th in scoring and 8th in goals. Similar to Nedved in output, but clearly a level behind Francis.

His team finished 6th in the east, 5th in G/GP and 1st in PP%

Overall, Kucherov accomplished what he did with a noticeably weaker team and supporting cast. But in fairness to Jagr, he would prove he could accomplish what he did without the supporting cast. 1998-99 would end up being just as good a season based on domination over peers and adjusted stats. So make of that what you will.

Click to read more...

 

[authentic]

60+ goals and 140+ points on a goalie > 37 goals and 130 points on a goalie

 

[hamzarocks]

Kucherov

 

[Regal]

Pretty similar offensively. I’d give Jagr the edge for his possession game.

 

[2for1PizzaPastuh]

Imagine Kucherov next to Lemieux.

 

[Pucklington]

Imagine Kucherov next to Lemieux.

Imagine Jagr next to Hedman and Stamkos.

 

[Felidae]

Imagine Jagr next to Hedman and Stamkos.

Jagr had the better supporting cast in 1995. It's indisputable. Team stats reflect that and so do the point leaders on each team.

Also, the current iteration of Stamkos is a bit past his prime, or close to it. So bringing him up doesn't help your point.

 

[User9992]

Imagine Jagr next to Hedman and Stamkos.

Hedman & Stamkos are nothing special compared to Lemieux.

Lemieux was Gretzky level talent when he wasn't injured.

 

[bobholly39]

60+ goals and 140+ points on a goalie > 37 goals and 130 points on a goalie

lol

And I suppose we just ignore this guy named Mario?

This is Kucherov.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

Imagine Kucherov next to Lemieux.

His linemates were Nedved and Francis that year.

 

[Felidae]

So does anyone know how many points Lemieux and Jagr had together that year? And what was their ATOI and/or total TOI spent together?

The info might sway voters one way or the other

It is also worth noting however, that Jagr was not facing the top lines due to Lemieux. It's a double edged sword in that he was facing weaker competition, but also likely getting less TOI than if Lemieux were absent

 

[ricky0034]

Kucherov, but I would vote for Jagr's 1998-99

 

[WalterLundy]

Adjusted to 2023-24 levels:
2.36 EVG, 0.63 PPG, 0.09 SHG

96 Jagr:
82 GP: 61 G, 84 A, 145 P (1.77)
(107 EVP, 36 PPP, 2 SHP)
(46 even strength goals)

24 Kucherov:
81 GP: 44 G, 100 A, 144 P (1.78)
(91 EVP, 53 PPP, 0 SHP)

99 Jagr:
81 GP: 52 G, 94 A, 146 P (1.80)
(105 EVP, 40 PPP, 1 SHP)
(42 even strength goals)

Jagr in 1995-96 had the most even strength points and goals. Also had the highest even strength point per game average above Lindros and Lemieux. His linemates that year were Petr Nedved and Ron Francis. Yes he got to play on the powerplay with Mario but that’s where Mario racked up 79 of his own 161. Jagr got 51 of his 149 on the powerplay that season and was clearly the most dominant player at even strength that year. Jagr didn’t get his points on the man advantage.

If people want to pick Kucherov because the points per game is virtually identical and because he led his team by a remarkable margin I fully get it. I’d go 95-96 Jagr by a hair due to even strength dominance and far superior goal scoring.

98-99 Jagr I’d take over both even though points per game is still close. What he did at even strength that year and overall with that cast is truly incredible. I don’t say this to diminish Kucherov. Statistically his year is there with Jagr’s best but I’d still go Jagr for those reasons.

 

[2for1PizzaPastuh]

His linemates were Nedved and Francis that year.

Imagine Kucherov being fed second pairs 30 years ago

 

[User9992]

Adjusted to 2023-24 levels:
2.36 EVG, 0.63 PPG, 0.09 SHG

96 Jagr:
82 GP: 61 G, 84 A, 145 P (1.77)
(107 EVP, 36 PPP, 2 SHP)
(46 even strength goals)

24 Kucherov:
81 GP: 44 G, 100 A, 144 P (1.78)
(91 EVP, 53 PPP, 0 SHP)

99 Jagr:
81 GP: 52 G, 94 A, 146 P (1.80)
(105 EVP, 40 PPP, 1 SHP)
(42 even strength goals)

Jagr in 1995-96 had the most even strength points and goals. Also had the highest even strength point per game average above Lindros and Lemieux. His linemates that year were Petr Nedved and Ron Francis. Yes he got to play on the powerplay with Mario but that’s where Mario racked up 79 of his own 161. Jagr got 51 of his 149 on the powerplay that season and was clearly the most dominant player at even strength that year. Jagr didn’t get his points on the man advantage.

If people want to pick Kucherov because the points per game is virtually identical and because he led his team by a remarkable margin I fully get it. I’d go 95-96 Jagr by a hair due to even strength dominance and far superior goal scoring.

98-99 Jagr I’d take over both even though points per game is still close. What he did at even strength that year and overall with that cast is truly incredible. I don’t say this to diminish Kucherov. Statistically his year is there with Jagr’s best but I’d still go Jagr for those reasons.

Jagr played with Lemieux. So comparisons don't make any sense.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

Jagr played with Lemieux. So comparisons don't make any sense.

In 98-99 he played with two rookies Jan Hrdina and Kip Miller.

 

[authentic]

lol

And I suppose we just ignore this guy named Mario?

This is Kucherov.

Jagr obviously proved he didn't need Lemieux, also didn't play with him at even strength that season and he was the best even strength scorer in the NHL and controlled play better than Kucherov which led to less goals against.

 

[authentic]

Adjusted to 2023-24 levels:
2.36 EVG, 0.63 PPG, 0.09 SHG

96 Jagr:
82 GP: 61 G, 84 A, 145 P (1.77)
(107 EVP, 36 PPP, 2 SHP)
(46 even strength goals)

24 Kucherov:
81 GP: 44 G, 100 A, 144 P (1.78)
(91 EVP, 53 PPP, 0 SHP)

99 Jagr:
81 GP: 52 G, 94 A, 146 P (1.80)
(105 EVP, 40 PPP, 1 SHP)
(42 even strength goals)

Jagr in 1995-96 had the most even strength points and goals. Also had the highest even strength point per game average above Lindros and Lemieux. His linemates that year were Petr Nedved and Ron Francis. Yes he got to play on the powerplay with Mario but that’s where Mario racked up 79 of his own 161. Jagr got 51 of his 149 on the powerplay that season and was clearly the most dominant player at even strength that year. Jagr didn’t get his points on the man advantage.

If people want to pick Kucherov because the points per game is virtually identical and because he led his team by a remarkable margin I fully get it. I’d go 95-96 Jagr by a hair due to even strength dominance and far superior goal scoring.

98-99 Jagr I’d take over both even though points per game is still close. What he did at even strength that year and overall with that cast is truly incredible. I don’t say this to diminish Kucherov. Statistically his year is there with Jagr’s best but I’d still go Jagr for those reasons.

Then there's the case of 14 empty net points vs. how many for Jagr? It's really not a tough choice to make for me when considering everything.

 

[authentic]

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

Also we need to stop pretending Kucherov is playing with crappy linemates. I get that he's far ahead of anyone on his own team which is part of what makes his season so impressive and adds to his case for the Hart trophy, but when you're constantly playing with 1 or 2 40+ goal scorers at even strength and on the powerplay and a point per game defensemen, all of whom you've been playing with for a decade and have built probably the best chemistry of any group in the NHL I don't think the linemates argument is a good one.

 

[authentic]

Imagine Kucherov being fed second pairs 30 years ago

Linemates have a bigger effect on production than competition. Countless examples of the "2nd line" players flourishing and having even better seasons without the #1 center, Jagr had his best season without Lemieux on the team, Malkin had his best season when Crosby played just 22 games, and those players are better than Kucherov. Why couldn't they post better seasons when they were feasting on 2nd pairs?

 

[Regal]

So does anyone know how many points Lemieux and Jagr had together that year? And what was their ATOI and/or total TOI spent together?

The info might sway voters one way or the other

It is also worth noting however, that Jagr was not facing the top lines due to Lemieux. It's a double edged sword in that he was facing weaker competition, but also likely getting less TOI than if Lemieux were absent

Mario was in on 12 of Jagr’s 95 ES points, 37 of his 51 PP points and 1 of his 3 SH points

*Edited to add missed PP point

 

[bobholly39]

Mario was in on 12 of Jagr’s 95 ES points, 36 of his 51 PP points and 1 of his 3 SH points

It's 12 EV, 37 PP and 1 SH point actually, slight correction. 50 total

Linemates have a bigger effect on production than competition. Countless examples of the "2nd line" players flourishing and having even better seasons without the #1 center, Jagr had his best season without Lemieux on the team, Malkin had his best season when Crosby played just 22 games, and those players are better than Kucherov. Why couldn't they post better seasons when they were feasting on 2nd pairs?

Didn't Jagr play with Francis? 4th in scoring in NHL that season with 119 points. Not only did Jagr have the weaker matchups, he had the better linemates than Lemieux

Francis was in on 47 of hif 95 ES points
Nedved was in on 46 of his 95 ES points

Jagr is great - but 1996 isn't even his best year. He benefited greatly from Mario Lemieux that season.

Kucherov 2023-2024 > Jagr 1995-1996

 

[WalterLundy]

Best seasons (ranked by ppg) of the last 30 years when adjusted to the 2023-24 environment of 2.36 EVG, 0.63 PPG, 0.09 SHG

96 Lemieux:
70 GP: 61 G, 83 A, 144 P (2.06)

21 McDavid:
56 GP: 35 G, 77 A, 112 P (2.00)

23 McDavid:
82 GP: 63 G, 88 A, 151 P (1.84)

99 Jagr:
81 GP: 52 G, 94 A, 146 P (1.80)

24 Kucherov:
81 GP: 44 G, 100 A, 144 P (1.78)

96 Jagr:
82 GP: 61 G, 84 A, 145 P (1.77)

24 McDavid:
76 GP: 32 G, 100 A, 132 P (1.74)

24 MacKinnon:
81 GP: 51 G, 89 A, 140 P (1.71)

00 Jagr:
63 GP: 48 G, 59 A, 107 P (1.70)

12 Malkin:
75 GP: 58 G, 68 A, 126 P (1.68)

97 Lemieux:
76 GP: 52 G, 75 A, 127 P (1.67)

10 Ovechkin:
72 GP: 56 G, 63 A, 119 P (1.65)

01 Jagr:
81 GP: 59 G, 74 A, 133 P (1.64)

03 Forsberg:
75 GP: 34 G, 89 A, 123 P (1.64)

19 Kucherov:
82 GP: 43 G, 91 A, 134 P (1.63)

Wanted to put a list together of the best years for points per game of the last 30 years if all were transferred to this years levels. From here you can look at what you value most (goals, assists, even strength, help, etc.) and decide which is best but I thought this would help everyone to decide which season ranks where.

May not be entirely relevant but I can also add 1980-1993 best seasons to include Gretzky’s best and a few extra Lemieux seasons. Let’s see if this is helpful first.

 

[authentic]

It's 12 EV, 37 PP and 1 SH point actually, slight correction. 50 total



Didn't Jagr play with Francis? 4th in scoring in NHL that season with 119 points. Not only did Jagr have the weaker matchups, he had the better linemates than Lemieux

Francis was in on 47 of hif 95 ES points
Nedved was in on 46 of his 95 ES points

Jagr is great - but 1996 isn't even his best year. He benefited greatly from Mario Lemieux that season.

Kucherov 2023-2024 > Jagr 1995-1996

In your opinion. I watched both play, Jagr was a force and every bit as good as his point totals indicated. He had firmly entered his prime at that point and that's the type of production you could expect of him given the scoring enviroment. Even if Lemieux boosted his totals a bit that season he was a better overall player than Kucherov, he drove the play and controlled the puck like very few other players, even better than Lemieux at that point at even strength and certainly better than Kucherov. I would also say Ron Francis benefitted from the situation he was in much more than Jagr did. Any boost Jagr saw that season would be negated by Kucherov's 14 empty net points which are still easier than scoring on a goalie no matter how you slice it.

 

[bobholly39]

In your opinion. I watched both play, Jagr was a force and every bit as good as his point totals indicated. He had firmly entered his prime at that point and that's the type of production you could expect of him given the scoring enviroment. Even if Lemieux boosted his totals a bit that season he was a better overall player than Kucherov, he drove the play and controlled the puck like very few other players, even better than Lemieux at that point at even strength and certainly better than Kucherov. I would also say Ron Francis benefitted from the situation he was in much more than Jagr did. Any boost Jagr saw that season would be negated by Kucherov's 14 empty net points which are still easier than scoring on a goalie no matter how you slice it.

You've been on this weird anti-Kucherov crusade all year for some reason...maybe you just dont like him.

Your response here is pretty much "eye test says Jagr looked better". Cool....maybe? To me it's more about results than the eye test.

Adjusted for scoring era - and even moreso for the benefit of having Lemieux on your team (both directly for points, and indirectly for matchups) - Kucherov had the better season. Even if the eye test might say different.

I have no doubt Francis's point totals benefitted more from Jagr than vice versa. But the comparison is Francis vs....Point this year. And on a 2nd line, vs 1st line matchups. That's clear edge Jagr.

But even without any of these linemate/matchups advantages- Kucherov is simply higher scoring if you adjust for era.