NHL team valuations

Euro Twins

Healthy Scratch
Mar 19, 2016
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Do you agree with these valuations? I can't see any world in which Detroit would sell for less than 2 billion. How are they worth less Seattle? How is Seattle worth more than Vegas?

Detroit is an O6 team with 11 cups. A new state of the art arena. Gets some of the highest ratings in the League

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FissionFire

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Dec 22, 2006
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A lot of the valuation rating for teams depends on market size. Seattle has a very large and untapped market compared to Las Vegas. LV has roughly 2.3M people (largely transplants) compared to 4M for Seattle. Just common logic says that you can likely make more money off of a market with double the population
 

dj4aces

An Intricate Piece of Infinity
Dec 17, 2007
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Duluth, GA
Detroit market keeps shrinking. Seattle market is growing.
That's kinda my thought, though maybe 1.2bn is a little on the low side, maybe closer to 1.5bn ... but that's really splitting hairs. The Metro Detroit area actually gained 2.2%in the 2020 population though, so there was a little growth experienced.

In my mind, both CAR and FLA should be higher...
* CAR, a team in a growing market with some sustained success and a cup win.
* FLA, solid ownership and GM, Miami is always growing it seems, and are building on some recent success of their own.
Both teams' TV ratings might not be high, but the teams are both in a good place. sub-1bn for both franchises seems undervalue.
 

dj4aces

An Intricate Piece of Infinity
Dec 17, 2007
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Is Edmonton only that high because of McDavid or something? That seems really high for them.
They're a top revenue team, so that plays into it. The presence of McDavid might have some effect in that. The value of the Oilers, according to that chart, increased by 45% over last year. It does make me wonder what would happen to the franchise value if they took McDavid out of the equation.
 

wingfan

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Jul 1, 2012
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Detroit market keeps shrinking. Seattle market is growing.

Detroit metropolitan is almost half a million larger than Seattle. Seattle also has an NHL team 100 miles north with a very established/entrenched fan base. I was just in Seattle visiting customers, it's surprising how little people know/care about the Kraken there. They know they now have an NHL team and think it's kinda cool, but they're not going to games. The owner of one of the companies I was visiting mentioned how difficult it is to get a kid into hockey out there as there just aren't any ice rinks.
 

Bondurant

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Jul 4, 2012
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Detroit metropolitan is almost half a million larger than Seattle. Seattle also has an NHL team 100 miles north with a very established/entrenched fan base. I was just in Seattle visiting customers, it's surprising how little people know/care about the Kraken there. They know they now have an NHL team and think it's kinda cool, but they're not going to games. The owner of one of the companies I was visiting mentioned how difficult it is to get a kid into hockey out there as there just aren't any ice rinks.
Popular enough to sell out every game.
 
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Euro Twins

Healthy Scratch
Mar 19, 2016
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Detroit market keeps shrinking. Seattle market is growing.
Image not showing

A lot of the valuation rating for teams depends on market size. Seattle has a very large and untapped market compared to Las Vegas. LV has roughly 2.3M people (largely transplants) compared to 4M for Seattle. Just common logic says that you can likely make more money off of a market with double the population


Acting like the wings fanbase is shrinking :facepalm: watch the wings play in other teams rinks and you'll see how well liked the wings are. They sell out. They have the best tv ratings. And they sure as hell wouldn't sell that team for less than 2billion. Not a chance. Not if Ottawa is worth nearly a billion.
 

Bondurant

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Acting like the wings fanbase is shrinking :facepalm: watch the wings play in other teams rinks and you'll see how well liked the wings are. They sell out. They have the best tv ratings. And they sure as hell wouldn't sell that team for less than 2billion. Not a chance. Not if Ottawa is worth nearly a billion.
You asked why Seattle was valued higher. You were provided possible answers. Seattle has a larger media market which is different than fanbase. No one claimed the Wings fanbase was shrinking. Many Wings fans, myself included, left the media market.

 

FissionFire

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Dec 22, 2006
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Acting like the wings fanbase is shrinking :facepalm: watch the wings play in other teams rinks and you'll see how well liked the wings are. They sell out. They have the best tv ratings. And they sure as hell wouldn't sell that team for less than 2billion. Not a chance. Not if Ottawa is worth nearly a billion.
When did I ever say anything about Detroit? I was posting about the Seattle/Las Vegas valuation. Detroit’s market is about the same size as Seattle so I’d expect the two franchises to have similar valuations on paper (not considering history, etc).

Also how many road fans the Wings pull has no factor on franchise value. Detroit doesn’t get a cut of the gate from away games so out-of-market fans don’t impact revenues (unless merchandise purchased online at NHL.com/team websites goes directly to the team instead of split league wide as shared revenue).
 

ricky0034

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Jun 8, 2010
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When did I ever say anything about Detroit? I was posting about the Seattle/Las Vegas valuation. Detroit’s market is about the same size as Seattle so I’d expect the two franchises to have similar valuations on paper (not considering history, etc).

Also how many road fans the Wings pull has no factor on franchise value. Detroit doesn’t get a cut of the gate from away games so out-of-market fans don’t impact revenues (unless merchandise purchased online at NHL.com/team websites goes directly to the team instead of split league wide as shared revenue).

also the value of a sports team can be a pretty complicated thing since it can include other things too which will vary from team to team

that Ottawa billion dollar sale for example? that was about a lot more than just the Hockey team there was a bunch of real estate involved too, in addition to the Hockey team it also included an arena, 70 acres of land, and development rights for 7.5 more acres of land in a desirable area right next to the downtown area
 
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KasperTheGrittyGhost

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Jan 12, 2008
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The Red Wings being in the top half of the league by revenues after an extended playoff drought suggests they’d be a top 5-8 team by valuation if they were a consistent cup contender.
 

Euro Twins

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Mar 19, 2016
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also the value of a sports team can be a pretty complicated thing since it can include other things too which will vary from team to team

that Ottawa billion dollar sale for example? that was about a lot more than just the Hockey team there was a bunch of real estate involved too, in addition to the Hockey team it also included an arena, 70 acres of land, and development rights for 7.5 more acres of land in a desirable area right next to the downtown area

District Detroit has all of that. There is absolutely no way Detroit's value is that close to Ottawa. A team that can't sell out an arena. Has won nothing.

Frankly I disagree and believe their valuations way too low.
 

Gniwder

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Oct 12, 2009
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Bellingham, WA
In several years, I can buy the Coyotes! Just need to pay off my mortgage first.

I'll sell my house and go 50/50 with you.

My plan is to move the team to KC, invite Taylor and Kelce to every game after the NFL season is over. Easy way to build a fan base. No brainer.
 
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Bench

3 is a good start
Aug 14, 2011
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I'll sell my house and go 50/50 with you.

My plan is to move the team to KC, invite Taylor and Kelce to every game after the NFL season is over. Easy way to build a fan base. No brainer.

Move them to Green Bay, you coward.
 

The Real Pastafarian

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Apr 4, 2020
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I don't understand these numbers at all.

A business's value is related to revenue; the multiple, the number by which you multiply revenue to get that value, varies with the business -- its projected future revenue, whether it has a competitive moat, etc. The multiple also usually scales -- the bigger the gross sales, the higher the multiple. So many factors affect the multiple that it becomes a bit of a fudge factor.

In this situation -- teams all in the same league -- you would think that the only factors that would vary between teams, causing them to have a different multiple, would be the projected trend for revenue for that team in particular (so if a team had a bright future likely to attract bandwagoners, was in a growing market, etc) and that scaling factor.

So why would Toronto have a multiple of 10, and Carolina a multiple of only 4.7? That's silly.

If I had Excel on this computer I think I could bang something out that would make more sense -- I'd have columns for team, 2022-2023 revenue, "future team success score", "market demographic score", scaling factor (a function of revenue), multiple (a function of those two scores and the scaling factor), and valuation (product of revenue and multiple.)

If we guess that 10 is a good multiple for Toronto, I'd think that Carolina (with younger stars, more success lately, likely to have way more success for the next several years) would have a better future team success score. I'd have to look up the numbers but I'm going to guess that the population of the Durham metro area is growing faster than Toronto, so Carolina would have a higher score there too. So maybe Carolina's multiple would be around 12. I don't think these factors would cause huge variations between teams in the same league -- I doubt that any team would merit a multiple as low as 4.7.

Detroit also has a better team future than aging Toronto, but I'd guess Detroit's market is actually shrinking a bit, so maybe Detroit would have a multiple of 8.

So I'd guess that if Toronto is worth $2.8B, then Carolina would be worth $2.1B, and Detroit would be worth $1.6B.

And that chart up there really isn't worth much at all.

Ideally though we'd want to consider revenue trends year-to-year too.
 

The Real Pastafarian

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Apr 4, 2020
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Are you in the market for an NHL team?

There's a limited number of buyers for NHL teams. The true value is whatever those people are willing to pay. This valuation exercise is completely meaningless unless you own a team and need to insure it.
No, the stuff I'm involved in is smaller by 3 or 4 orders of magnitude. No, I don't have any experience with huge deals like this, and I'm pulling this stuff out of my butt.

But the teams and the league are businesses and I'd be surprised if the usual rules of thumb for the valuation of businesses don't still apply to this. Sure, the market always sets the price; but those market actors generally have a rationally derived multiple in mind. When Musk bought Twitter I think the multiple was something like 7 or 8; even though he had motives for the purchase beyond profit, he wasn't going to pay twice that, and Twitter's shareholders wouldn't have accepted half as much as his offer.
 

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