News Article: NHL.com: Inside look at Detroit Red Wings

[Ezekial]

Absent an injury, AA and Mantha will both start the season in GR regardless of how well they play or how ready they are. It is not the meritocracy that you think it is.

I disagree with that notion completely. Ott sucks, someone else can jump on the 4th line.

If either of them play lights out I don't think it will be a hard decision.

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

I disagree with that notion completely. Ott sucks, someone else can jump on the 4th line.

If either of them play lights out I don't think it will be a hard decision.

I disagree with the notion too, but it is still going to happen. Ken Holland loves depth. Again, Ken Holland loves depth. He values it more than anything, including his own family. He will never sacrifice depth at the beginning of the season. If he is actually going to waive a vet (such as Ott or Miller) it will happen after the All-Star break. Kenny never ices his best squad from day one. Everyone knows this.

 

[Pavels Dog]

I disagree with the notion too, but it is still going to happen. Ken Holland loves depth. Again, Ken Holland loves depth. He values it more than anything, including his own family. He will never sacrifice depth at the beginning of the season. If he is actually going to waive a vet (such as Ott or Miller) it will happen after the All-Star break. Kenny never ices his best squad from day one. Everyone knows this.

Pulkkinen surgery opens up a slot. More injuries are likely to happen. If they don't, a good camp by AA/Mantha could make Holland go for a trade.

No need to worry right now, so much can happen still.

 

[Henkka]

Absent an injury, AA and Mantha will both start the season in GR regardless of how well they play or how ready they are. It is not the meritocracy that you think it is.

Near history has PROVEN, waiver-eligible kids are getting spots. You like it or not.

 

[Heaton]

Near history has PROVEN, waiver-eligible kids are getting spots. You like it or not.

Remind me again which players spots Larkin and Jurco took.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Remind me again which players spots Larkin and Jurco took.

Larkin took icetime from Nyquist/Tatar/Jurco/Pulkkinen and I guess Andersson's roster spot. Jurco I can't remember exactly but garbage like Samuelsson/Bertuzzi/Cleary got pushed down and out when he and Sheahan made the team. Maybe Tootoo and Weiss were in that mix? It's all becoming a blur.

 

[Frk It]

Remind me again which players spots Larkin and Jurco took.

So you're saying Holland accounted for them making the team the years that they did? Cause he doesn't really typically leave roster spots open like that. Like ever.

 

[HIFE]

...Larkin would have been a top 5 pick of his draft class if there was a do over. Turns out you can get top-end, elite talent if you draft and develop well, which management has been trying to do. Oh, they also have a 24-year old netminder who could become one of the game's best goalies. What a terrible rut to be in.

To my dying day I will never not believe this wasn't an inside agreement between GM's to give Holland this one. Larkin could have been 12th, 13th, etc. but no the Waterford kid magically gets drafted by his hometown team. What a miracle! Holland is now one of the oldest boys in the club this was one instance it worked in our favor.

 

[Pavels Dog]

To my dying day I will never not believe this wasn't an inside agreement between GM's to give Holland this one. Larkin could have been 12th, 13th, etc. but no the Waterford kid magically gets drafted by his hometown team. What a miracle! Holland is now one of the oldest boys in the club this was one instance it worked in our favor.

Not sure if serious.

 

[MrTaterSalad]

If they want out of this first round and out rut then they need to find a way to get in the Top 5 of the draft for 2-3 years, period. First though, Kenny needs to admit that drafting is the way forward for their to be any progress made, and he probably won't. I'm not saying anything that hasn't been stated a 1,000x already, but this franchise needs to get themselves a couple of top pairing defensemen (if available top 5) and a center. The draft is the only way they are going to do that IMO. If they need to tank to do it or finagle trades to get there then so be it.

Without putting another top-tier center and most of all two top defensemen on this roster, they aren't going anywhere. It's becoming crystal clear that the top free agents aren't signing here. We sit around every summer disappointed as a front office and as fans that we missed out on the marquee attractions (Suter, Byfuglien, Fowler, Parise, Nash, Stamkos). It's also clear that we aren't pulling off a blockbuster trade that lands of Weber, Subban, Byfuglien, etc. because our GM doesn't have the stones nor the savvy to pull that kind of deal off.

I'm not sure that Kenny even recognizes the need to move up in the draft and develop some top-tier, young defensemen. We need to draft top 5 for a few years running to drag this franchise out of its rut. If Kenny isn't the guy to do it, neither willing nor capable, then get someone in here who will.

 

[Claypool]

If they want out of this first round and out rut then they need to find a way to get in the Top 5 of the draft for 2-3 years, period. First though, Kenny needs to admit that drafting is the way forward for their to be any progress made, and he probably won't. I'm not saying anything that hasn't been stated a 1,000x already, but this franchise needs to get themselves a couple of top pairing defensemen (if available top 5) and a center. The draft is the only way they are going to do that IMO. If they need to tank to do it or finagle trades to get there then so be it.

Without putting another top-tier center and most of all two top defensemen on this roster, they aren't going anywhere. It's becoming crystal clear that the top free agents aren't signing here. We sit around every summer disappointed as a front office and as fans that we missed out on the marquee attractions (Suter, Byfuglien, Fowler, Parise, Nash, Stamkos). It's also clear that we aren't pulling off a blockbuster trade that lands of Weber, Subban, Byfuglien, etc. because our GM doesn't have the stones nor the savvy to pull that kind of deal off.

I'm not sure that Kenny even recognizes the need to move up in the draft and develop some top-tier, young defensemen. We need to draft top 5 for a few years running to drag this franchise out of its rut. If Kenny isn't the guy to do it, neither willing nor capable, then get someone in here who will.

Let's hear your proposals for players like Weber, Subban, etc. Would love to hear them.

Unfortunately for you they drafted players like Larkin and Mrazek. This team won't be anywhere near the bottom anytime soon.

 

[Ezekial]

Our GM doesn't have the minerals to pull off a trade like that?

Delusion.
He doesn't have the assets to pull off a trade like that, blame him for that if you'd like, but the dude sets the goal to make the playoffs and achieves it. Acting like just making the playoffs every year in this league is easy is ridiculous.
Yea it's not ideal for some if you and I get that. But that's his goal and he has been achieving it.
And I'm aware of his trading history, just don't say he doesn't have the balls to make a move for an elite defenseman that's unattainable.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

If they want out of this first round and out rut then they need to find a way to get in the Top 5 of the draft for 2-3 years, period. First though, Kenny needs to admit that drafting is the way forward for their to be any progress made, and he probably won't. I'm not saying anything that hasn't been stated a 1,000x already, but this franchise needs to get themselves a couple of top pairing defensemen (if available top 5) and a center. The draft is the only way they are going to do that IMO. If they need to tank to do it or finagle trades to get there then so be it.

Without putting another top-tier center and most of all two top defensemen on this roster, they aren't going anywhere. It's becoming crystal clear that the top free agents aren't signing here. We sit around every summer disappointed as a front office and as fans that we missed out on the marquee attractions (Suter, Byfuglien, Fowler, Parise, Nash, Stamkos). It's also clear that we aren't pulling off a blockbuster trade that lands of Weber, Subban, Byfuglien, etc. because our GM doesn't have the stones nor the savvy to pull that kind of deal off.

I'm not sure that Kenny even recognizes the need to move up in the draft and develop some top-tier, young defensemen. We need to draft top 5 for a few years running to drag this franchise out of its rut. If Kenny isn't the guy to do it, neither willing nor capable, then get someone in here who will.

No, we don't need to draft top 5 for a few years running. We need to make better use of the picks we have. With better drafting and scouting, we could have landed Duncan Keith, Ryan O'Rielly, Shea Weber, Henrik Lundqvist, etc. It is sexier to pick top 5 and get the big name young kid, but you just need to find good players at all points in the draft.

And Ken Holland doesn't realize the need for defensemen. He doesn't get it, but you, Mr. HF Boards member, you're on it.

And crystal clear that top FA won't sign here? The biggest ones we struck out on were Ryan Suter (family issues and 98M) and Stamkos (team that drafted him that could also pay him more money AND has better talent AND is a similar type market to Detroit that he can kind of fly under the radar for a talent of his caliber.) And whatever you think about Vesey crossing us off the list and keeping Chicago on it, proximity to home is one factor. Chicago has enough to continue to tip the scales. Detroit doesn't. Nielsen was a big fish in this FA class. He came here.

You want Ken Holland to make a sexy move and don't care whether it is a good or bad one. And lastly, if they added a #1C and two top pairing D to this team... that's not a contender. That's a prohibitive favorite.

 

[njx9]

I don't think need a top 5 pick (let alone multiple top 5 picks) to fill in our defense. I think we *do* need significantly better scouting at the position than we seem to have had for the last ten+ years. It sure would've been nice to have spent the past few years discussing Subban's character, than discussing whether or not Brendan Smith is our 'best' defenseman or our 'worst', for instance.

We need a Hakan Andersson of defensemen.

edit: figures, spend too much time typing and end up posting the same thing as someone who types faster.

 

[Frk It]

No, we don't need to draft top 5 for a few years running. We need to make better use of the picks we have. With better drafting and scouting, we could have landed Duncan Keith, Ryan O'Rielly, Shea Weber, Henrik Lundqvist, etc. It is sexier to pick top 5 and get the big name young kid, but you just need to find good players at all points in the draft.

We have drafted well relative to where we pick. With the exception of defense.

Fact remains that drafting higher significantly raises your odds of drafting impact players.

When you have had numerous 2nd-7th round draft picks, and you haven't drafted a high-end defenseman since Kronwall in 2000, maybe at some point a top 5 or top 10 pick to bump up those odds is what you need.

 

[Frk It]

I don't think need a top 5 pick (let alone multiple top 5 picks) to fill in our defense. I think we *do* need significantly better scouting at the position than we seem to have had for the last ten+ years. It sure would've been nice to have spent the past few years discussing Subban's character, than discussing whether or not Brendan Smith is our 'best' defenseman or our 'worst', for instance.

We need a Hakan Andersson of defensemen.

edit: figures, spend too much time typing and end up posting the same thing as someone who types faster.

Well Hakan scouted Kronwall and Ericsson which are the last 2 defenseman we have drafted that are worth a damn. Except maybe Quincey. And he also wanted Edler, who turned into a very good player.

So we have been pretty awful at scouting/identifying North American defenseman.

Maybe Hakan is due for another hit. Maybe this Malmstrom kid becomes something.

 

[njx9]

Well Hakan scouted Kronwall and Ericsson which are the last 2 defenseman we have drafted that are worth a damn. Except maybe Quincey. And he also wanted Edler, who turned into a very good player.

So we have been pretty awful at scouting/identifying North American defenseman.

Maybe Hakan is due for another hit. Maybe this Malmstrom kid becomes something.

I hope so. I feel like our NA scouting spent a long time being pretty poor in general, though maybe that's more confirmation bias for me, and our hits just don't come to mind as easily. But yeah, we *really* need to figure out how to scout defensemen from this continent. I hope the picks this year signal a change in our ability, there.

 

[PuckDynasty]

The Wings absolutely can not rebuild on the fly unless Holland somehow, somewhere finds the balls to make an actual trade or can somehow convince the rare game changing free agent to sign with the Wings. The MO of signing third and fourth line vets to long term deals and trying to patchwork the team and find over 30 scoring gems off the scrap heap aint gonna get it done.

Larkin and Mrazek are nice pieces, but for the most part, the team is made up of third and fourth liners and 5th and 6th defensemen. It is also going to be harder for Larkin this season with out Datsyuk and with a declining Zetterberg. You just aren't going to go far without a #1 center or a top 2 defenseman.

Holland isn't going to change. If there was ever an offseason to do so, this was the one, with the Datsyuk defection. He stuck with the same old tired formula of bad long term contracts for dime a dozen guys and signing over 30 vets. This has been a depressing and disappointing offseason. All the talk of Stamkos, Shattenkirk, Fowler, Yandle, or getting rid of Howard and Ericcson seems like a cruel joke.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

We have drafted well relative to where we pick. With the exception of defense.

Fact remains that drafting higher significantly raises your odds of drafting impact players.

When you have had numerous 2nd-7th round draft picks, and you haven't drafted a high-end defenseman since Kronwall in 2000, maybe at some point a top 5 or top 10 pick to bump up those odds is what you need.

No. You need to improve your scouting and/or go a bit higher risk. They went safe with Ouellet, Marchenko, etc. Sproul is about the only defender who could really be deemed a boom/bust guy. Everyone else has middle pairing as their top side and bottom pairing as their downside. Take a 3 who can become an 8 sometimes and not 5s who maybe can be 6s.

 

[SpookyTsuki]

It's the kids job to push the vet out. Nothing is handed for free. Red Wings way. And I love it.

Safest bet is to have decent vet and then compare a kid for him, if the kid is not better, send him down to develop more with bigger ice-time.

Larkin was enough good at last season and never looked back.

Mrazek is pushing hard Howard towards a buyout.

Marchenko pushed Quincey out.
DeKeyser pushed people out from his way.
Bertuzzi will push Ott out on some day etc.

It's so clear that Holland even does to sign a same kind of vet player type for the roster spot competition against the kid.

Mantha = Vanek (net-front precense, sniper)
Bertuzzi = Ott (pest, PK guy)
Athanasiou = Helm/Nielsen (speedy center)

It's an open competition. Work hard, be better and all world is yours. Be lazy and uninterested, and have a career in AHL bus.

Danny d didn't have to work. Our dfence was bad
Ericsson pushed Quincey out

 

[Claypool]

No. You need to improve your scouting and/or go a bit higher risk. They went safe with Ouellet, Marchenko, etc. Sproul is about the only defender who could really be deemed a boom/bust guy. Everyone else has middle pairing as their top side and bottom pairing as their downside. Take a 3 who can become an 8 sometimes and not 5s who maybe can be 6s.

You're only getting middle or bottom-pairing players after the first round. Usually. There's obvious exceptions, so please don't list them. But you're basically demanding that management draft top-pairing defensemen in the later rounds, which is completely unreasonable. Marchenko was a 7th round pick who turned out to be a solid player. You want them to do even better than that?

Here's what I posted in this thread:

There were 68 defensemen taken in 2010 and only 10 of them played over 100 NHL games so far. We're talking about 15% of defenseman drafted become NHL-caliber players, and maybe 2 or 3 of them are considered stars (Faulk, Fowler, Klingberg). So the Red Wings had a 4% chance of drafting a star defenseman.

 

[Heaton]

If Holland is unwilling to trade, then yes, he needs to draft and develop better. That's his job.

Instead of looking just recently, how about the past 15 years?

 

[Henkka]

If Holland is unwilling to trade, then yes, he needs to draft and develop better. That's his job.

Instead of looking just recently, how about the past 15 years?

Jim Nill's draft record (especially North American drafting) looks pretty bad from his era. Only HÃ¥kan Andersson was saving his butt year after year with European picks.

Thank god Holland finally fixed this problem letting him and McDonell go. And he did keep HÃ¥kan Andersson.

What Tyler Wright does, we'll see some some results after next 7 years. His results from first 3 years (NA drafting) have been quite impressive, imo.

 

[Heaton]

Jim Nill's draft record (especially North American drafting) looks pretty bad from his era. Only HÃ¥kan Andersson was saving his butt year after year with European picks.

Thank god Holland finally fixed this problem letting him and McDonell go. And he did keep HÃ¥kan Andersson.

What Tyler Wright does, we'll see some some results after next 7 years. His results from first 3 years (NA drafting) have been quite impressive, imo.

The Wings are great at drafting NHL players, recently, they have been secondary or role players. I'll be excited when we have actual elite players. Larkin and Mrazek are a start, but we have a long way to go.

 

[Claypool]

I'll be excited when we have actual elite players. Larkin and Mrazek are a start, but we have a long way to go.

Only missing a true #1 defenseman. Tough hole to fill for sure, but hardly a long way to go.