OT: NHL All-Time Draft

Gary Nylund

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Oct 10, 2013
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It's obviously subjective. I say 5 or so, maybe you'll say 7 or 8. But the point is, the list of true top goalies is limited. If the next 30 picks go by and 6 ish of them are goalies, then we're stuck.

I agree there will be very good goalies available in round 2. But not difference makers. Especially when you consider the rules state that they're drafted as 18 year olds, and follow a similar career trajectory as real life. How many goalies were difference makers for long stretches, let alone their entire career? Durnan and a bunch of others don't look so hot. The list of goalies that matter is short.

I agree. The way the draft is going though, I think it's a good gamble that one of the difference makers will still be there for us in round two.

Also, the list of difference makers isn't that long at any position IMO. Again, somewhat subjective but you could argue that the forwards are all gone and I think the Dmen will all be taken before the goalies.

Goalies are the most important players but ... they're just not sexy enough to go as high as they should in these drafts.

Roy is the wrong choice, Broduer is better, and we could probably get a certain Russian in Round 2.

I take Roy over Brodeur. But then I take Dryden over both of them.

Tretiak is eligible

I don't think Tretiak ever played in the NHL, how is he eligible?
 

TorontoTrades

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Feb 4, 2012
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Ray Bourque is the pick with Doug Harvey being #2. Can easily get a great goalie in the 2nd or 3rd round
 

UnSandvich

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Sep 7, 2017
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I agree. The way the draft is going though, I think it's a good gamble that one of the difference makers will still be there for us in round two.

Also, the list of difference makers isn't that long at any position IMO. Again, somewhat subjective but you could argue that the forwards are all gone and I think the Dmen will all be taken before the goalies.

Goalies are the most important players but ... they're just not sexy enough to go as high as they should in these drafts.



I take Roy over Brodeur. But then I take Dryden over both of them.



I don't think Tretiak ever played in the NHL, how is he eligible?

He's eligible b/c I don't think it makes sense to restrict him from being eligible. If you have an argument why he shouldn't that's not "Never played in the NHL" I'll listen to it, but can't guarantee it'll persuade me
 

Gary Nylund

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Oct 10, 2013
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He's eligible b/c I don't think it makes sense to restrict him from being eligible. If you have an argument why he shouldn't that's not "Never played in the NHL" I'll listen to it, but can't guarantee it'll persuade me

This is from your OP:

All retired/inactive NHL players are considered eligible for this draft

As far as I know, Tretiak never played in the NHL so I don't see how he qualifies for this draft. I don't care if he is eligible or not, I just want the rules to be clear.

Ok you did say legends are good but where is that line drawn? Why not just say anyone can be drafted, legend or not?

You might also want to say how many players we're drafting. Full roster? I'd suggest cutting it off at say 4 Dmen, 6 forwards and 1 goalie but that's just me. But then again, if you're going to abandon the draft after a round or two I guess it probably won't matter as this thing isn't likely to finish anyway.
 
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UnSandvich

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Sep 7, 2017
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This is from your OP:

All retired/inactive NHL players are considered eligible for this draft

As far as I know, Tretiak never played in the NHL so I don't see how he qualifies for this draft. I don't care if he is eligible or not, I just want the rules to be clear.

I can change that then, but thus far you're the only person in the 20 boards to have raised an issue with it, hence why I didn't see it as an issue before.
 

seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
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Which is why you're needed here! This is an extension of the all-time-draft. Hit us with some expertise, if you please.

What positions do you find most important to draft early? Who are some serious steals for this kind of thing?

I'm thinking Syl Apps and Charlie Conacher are potential steals in round 2 or 3.

- I don't think there's any particular position that's important to draft early. For the first few rounds I would tend to take a best-player-available approach, of course that means BPA aside from a position I've already drafted.

- Just looking at the draft list here, it's pretty hard for me to give advice. You guys are in a completely different world here. You are much more casual fans than historians, and it shows in how you've drafted players. It appears that a major bonus is being given in value to players that you can remember/played more recently. Whether that's because there's a prevailing sentiment that newer = better*, or whether GMs are being lazy/making the "safe" pick, I can't really say, but it throws any advice that I can give out of whack. I see that there is voting on the teams being done. I could tell you all kinds of steals that are out there, but if other people agreed they were steals, they'd have already picked them themselves, and they'll vote accordingly.

- Just some rough comments on who's been drafted already, here are some teams that got excellent value:

- LA getting Gordie Howe 4th (anytime someone whiffs on Lemieux then the guy in 4th gets to take one of the big 3)
- NYR getting Maurice Richard 16th (I'm hard on him myself, but he's clearly better than the 7 players taken before him, for sure)

some guys who got reasonable value:

- nothing wrong with Gretzky at 1st of course
- Orr at 3rd was a perfectly logical choice
- Buffalo taking Hasek 7th
- Montreal getting Beliveau 8th

these would be considered slight reaches in an actual All-time draft but compared to the players that went around them, they're studs:

- Messier at 9th
- Bossy at 15th
- Potvin at 18th
- Lafleur at 19th

- questionable picks but not team-damaging:

- taking Mario 2nd when Orr and Howe are on the board
- Jagr at 5th
- Lidstrom at 6th
- Sakic 1th
- Yzerman 12th

- players who have no earthly business being selected anywhere near where they were taken and their teams need to hit home runs in rounds 2 and 3:

- Lindros 10th
- Forsberg 13th
- Bure 14th
- Hawerchuk 17th

off the top of my head, it's absurd that the board is 19 picks in and no one has taken Bourque, Harvey, Shore, Roy, Bobby Hull or Crosby.

some good easy-to-digest resources:

Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time (Part 2) - the top-100 of all-time, completed a year ago
Top Players of All Time Lists - once you've exhausted the top-100, plenty more great options on these positional lists
ATD 2020 Draft Thread V - an all-time draft done by the pros. pay attention to the order of selections. It gives you a good idea of how long you can wait to take a player. Like, if you seriously think Mats Sundin should be picked next, good for you, but you can probably wait till at least round 4 to be silly, even in this section.

Anyway, anyone reading can feel free to take my advice while at the same time understanding that the voting bloc is predominantly people who think Lindros, Forsberg, Bure and Hawerchuk are top-20 players of all-time (and Jagr/Lidstrom top-10, and Sakic/Yzerman top-12), so while this advice will get you a better team, it may not actually help you win.



*newer IS better. The top-50 players of all-time, in an absolute sense, are probably Crosby, Ovechkin, Malkin, Kane, Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr, McDavid and the 43 other best active players under 30 today. But there's no point in debating such points. All-time lists are meant to reflect dominance in one's own era, not what would happen if Gordie Howe stepped into a time machine, walked out in 2020 and tried to play with his 1940s training, nutrition and equipment. If this main concept is not established and agreed upon before beginning drafting, then there will be widely divergent opinions on the quality of players and teams.
 

UnSandvich

Registered User
Sep 7, 2017
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- I don't think there's any particular position that's important to draft early. For the first few rounds I would tend to take a best-player-available approach, of course that means BPA aside from a position I've already drafted.

- Just looking at the draft list here, it's pretty hard for me to give advice. You guys are in a completely different world here. You are much more casual fans than historians, and it shows in how you've drafted players. It appears that a major bonus is being given in value to players that you can remember/played more recently. Whether that's because there's a prevailing sentiment that newer = better*, or whether GMs are being lazy/making the "safe" pick, I can't really say, but it throws any advice that I can give out of whack. I see that there is voting on the teams being done. I could tell you all kinds of steals that are out there, but if other people agreed they were steals, they'd have already picked them themselves, and they'll vote accordingly.

- Just some rough comments on who's been drafted already, here are some teams that got excellent value:

- LA getting Gordie Howe 4th (anytime someone whiffs on Lemieux then the guy in 4th gets to take one of the big 3)
- NYR getting Maurice Richard 16th (I'm hard on him myself, but he's clearly better than the 7 players taken before him, for sure)

some guys who got reasonable value:

- nothing wrong with Gretzky at 1st of course
- Orr at 3rd was a perfectly logical choice
- Buffalo taking Hasek 7th
- Montreal getting Beliveau 8th

these would be considered slight reaches in an actual All-time draft but compared to the players that went around them, they're studs:

- Messier at 9th
- Bossy at 15th
- Potvin at 18th
- Lafleur at 19th

- questionable picks but not team-damaging:

- taking Mario 2nd when Orr and Howe are on the board
- Jagr at 5th
- Lidstrom at 6th
- Sakic 1th
- Yzerman 12th

- players who have no earthly business being selected anywhere near where they were taken and their teams need to hit home runs in rounds 2 and 3:

- Lindros 10th
- Forsberg 13th
- Bure 14th
- Hawerchuk 17th

off the top of my head, it's absurd that the board is 19 picks in and no one has taken Bourque, Harvey, Shore, Roy, Bobby Hull or Crosby.

some good easy-to-digest resources:

Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time (Part 2) - the top-100 of all-time, completed a year ago
Top Players of All Time Lists - once you've exhausted the top-100, plenty more great options on these positional lists
ATD 2020 Draft Thread V - an all-time draft done by the pros. pay attention to the order of selections. It gives you a good idea of how long you can wait to take a player. Like, if you seriously think Mats Sundin should be picked next, good for you, but you can probably wait till at least round 4 to be silly, even in this section.

Anyway, anyone reading can feel free to take my advice while at the same time understanding that the voting bloc is predominantly people who think Lindros, Forsberg, Bure and Hawerchuk are top-20 players of all-time (and Jagr/Lidstrom top-10, and Sakic/Yzerman top-12), so while this advice will get you a better team, it may not actually help you win.



*newer IS better. The top-50 players of all-time, in an absolute sense, are probably Crosby, Ovechkin, Malkin, Kane, Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr, McDavid and the 43 other best active players under 30 today. But there's no point in debating such points. All-time lists are meant to reflect dominance in one's own era, not what would happen if Gordie Howe stepped into a time machine, walked out in 2020 and tried to play with his 1940s training, nutrition and equipment. If this main concept is not established and agreed upon before beginning drafting, then there will be widely divergent opinions on the quality of players and teams.

Couple minor tidbits:
Crosby is ineligible, and I've had at least one person say his name every time I posted a thread on another teams board. Even when I bolded that part of Rule 2

As far as I can tell, the Lindros & Bure, and maybe Forsberg selections (the latter 2 of which I definitely disagree with, while Lindros is at best questionable), are likely due to the caveat that injuries are not guaranteed to occur like they did in real life. A Lindros without concussion issues could be a monster in today's league, which I believe could've driven that selection

EDIT: I've also been beating the Shore drum for a while. 4 Hart wins and 4 Top 5 finishes, never below another D
 
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Gary Nylund

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I can change that then, but thus far you're the only person in the 20 boards to have raised an issue with it, hence why I didn't see it as an issue before.

I'm not talking about changing anything, I'm just asking for clarification. How is Tretiak eligible if he never played in the NHL?
 

Gary Nylund

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Oct 10, 2013
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So since it seems Tretiak is available what is his "level" in this kind of draft compared to Hasek / Roy?

Hard to say. He is obviously good but sample size against elite competition is small. Considering the team he played on and the level of competition, he's probably the most sheltered goalie in hockey history.

I'm waiting for clarification on eligibility rules but if Tretiak is eligible then I'm assuming so is Kharlamov and that would be my pick without a doubt!
 
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UnSandvich

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Hard to say. He is obviously good but sample size against elite competition is small. Considering the team he played on and the level of competition, he's probably the most sheltered goalie in hockey history.

I'm waiting for clarification on eligibility rules but if Tretiak is eligible then I'm assuming so is Kharlamov and that would be my pick without a doubt!

What further clarification do you need besides me saying he's eligible? And yes, under the same criteria, Kharlamov is eligible as well.
 
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Rogue Leader

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Hard to say. He is obviously good but sample size against elite competition is small. Considering the team he played on and the level of competition, he's probably the most sheltered goalie in hockey history.

I'm waiting for clarification on eligibility rules but if Tretiak is eligible then I'm assuming so is Kharlamov and that would be my pick without a doubt!
This is actually so fun. Just having imaginary battles in my head between players. I read everything about Kharlamov - very impressive! :)
 
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diehardleafsfan9878

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Mar 9, 2015
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I agree. The way the draft is going though, I think it's a good gamble that one of the difference makers will still be there for us in round two.

Also, the list of difference makers isn't that long at any position IMO. Again, somewhat subjective but you could argue that the forwards are all gone and I think the Dmen will all be taken before the goalies.

Goalies are the most important players but ... they're just not sexy enough to go as high as they should in these drafts.



I take Roy over Brodeur. But then I take Dryden over both of them.



I don't think Tretiak ever played in the NHL, how is he eligible?
OP's post says Tretiak is available. It's a draft of all inactive players, which actually gives me an idea for a real late sleeper pick (Tony Hand)
 

diehardleafsfan9878

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Mar 9, 2015
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What further clarification do you need besides me saying he's eligible? And yes, under the same criteria, Kharlamov is eligible as well.
If you want to set more clear rules, just make it as every player whose ever been drafted or played in the NHL that is inactive is eligible. But I understand the concept of every hockey player you can think of is eligible.
 

seventieslord

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Mar 16, 2006
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I'm coming into this cold, but can you just confirm this for me - the picks are all voted on by committee?

Dale Hawerchuk actually won a vote, or....?
 
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