OT: NFL Playoffs Thread

[g00n]

If they did pay off/get a low-level staffer to take the fall, I don't see what the NFL could do unless they threaten legal action. Is fixing a game a crime? Could they threaten that? Is there any other way to get the guy to flip? Hand him over to Vegas or more threatening bookies?

I don't know about the legal fallout. I'm sure it's complicated and crazy and depends on laws at various levels. The NFL has an antitrust exemption that congress will sometimes use as leverage but that's about the only thing I can think of that would have any teeth. And I don't see that happening.

If there is some kind of hijinx here it's probably between BB, Brady, and the ball boy. That's all you need and it would explain why ex-Patriots never talk about it. The only way I see it working with the ball boy taking the risk of being scapegoated is if they assure him they'll hire him back OR they have a way to gift him untraced cash. Otherwise he's going to be at risk for selling his story to TMZ or something, like the disgruntled hotel employee did with the Ray Rice tape.

And if the kid is dumb enough to go out and buy a Porche after being fired.....

 

[Jacoby4HOF66]

http://www.sharpfootballanalysis.co...iots-mysteriously-became-fumble-proof-in-2007

This is pretty damning right here. Very hard to explain. Brady lobbies the league for a rule change allowing teams to provide their own balls, the next year the Patriots destroy the odds in terms of fumbles per touches compared to the league AND their own previous seasons. The author even checked the fumble rates of players after leaving the Patriots and they returned to close to the league average.

But again, very unlikely anything serious is done by the NFL without a smoking gun pointing to the top.

See post #120, it was more than Tom Brady pushing this. Peyton Manning played a large role. And Manning got 20 other NFL QB's to sign his petition to change the rule in a day. So to say Brady led this charge so NE could have an advantage is a stretch. At least 22 NFL QB's in 2006 were pretty eager to change this rule.

As for fumble per touches, that does sound fishy, but then looking at NE turnover differential rank since 2000, NE has been outside the top 10 in turnover differential three times. Twice 2006 and before and once after 2006. Good teams don't turn the ball over, and NE has been a good team since 2000.

http://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/team-turnover-differential-statistics/2014/

Also, in regards to Glazer's report of a low level guy taking the footballs into a "undisclosed area", well it turns out that undisclosed area was a bathroom and the guy was in there for 90 seconds. Is that enough time to accurately drop the PSI in 11 out of 12 balls for NE? Or was the guy simply taking a piss?

 

[Jacoby4HOF66]

If they did pay off/get a low-level staffer to take the fall, I don't see what the NFL could do unless they threaten legal action. Is fixing a game a crime? Could they threaten that? Is there any other way to get the guy to flip? Hand him over to Vegas or more threatening bookies?

Fix the game? But NE played better in the 2nd half after the balls were pumped up to the proper PSI.

 

[BobRouse]

http://www.sharpfootballanalysis.co...iots-mysteriously-became-fumble-proof-in-2007

This is pretty damning right here. Very hard to explain. Brady lobbies the league for a rule change allowing teams to provide their own balls, the next year the Patriots destroy the odds in terms of fumbles per touches compared to the league AND their own previous seasons. The author even checked the fumble rates of players after leaving the Patriots and they returned to close to the league average.

But again, very unlikely anything serious is done by the NFL without a smoking gun pointing to the top.

Definitely thats no coincidence. I read variations of that same report. They've been up to something for sometime now.

Love how Kraft comes out and doubles down on the big middle finger that org is giving to the entire NFL.

They have put that ball boy in a horrible position and lots of cash under the table will be flowing his way.

They are cheating, have had a history of doing so, are repeat offenders and are now digging in. Their hubris is astonishing.

Fix the game? But NE played better in the 2nd half after the balls were pumped up to the proper PSI.

WetHog

Honest question...why are you defending the Pats?

Their history of cheating has been well documented. Marshall Faulk says he was robbed of a superbowl, the Carolina GM was told they were filming their practices during that superbowl.

The NFL finally put their foot down and said "DONT DO IT AGAIN!". What did the Pats do? They promptly went out and did it again.

The fumbling is huge. To go from a middling team to one that drastically out performs even the next closest team over several years is no accident. Coincided with Brady pushing for the new rule in 06.

BJGE had ZERO fumbles in 500 games+ with the Pats. He leaves and has 5 fumbles in under 500 carries with the Bengals. Every single running back thats been with more than one team has seen fewer fumbles per 100 carries when he was with the Pats.

Where there is smoke there is fire. They cheat. They are defiant about it. Just a flat out arrogant organization.

When Don Shula unpromted called him "Belicheat" you know thats made the rounds.

 

[Jacoby4HOF66]

I don't know about the legal fallout. I'm sure it's complicated and crazy and depends on laws at various levels. The NFL has an antitrust exemption that congress will sometimes use as leverage but that's about the only thing I can think of that would have any teeth. And I don't see that happening.

If there is some kind of hijinx here it's probably between BB, Brady, and the ball boy. That's all you need and it would explain why ex-Patriots never talk about it. The only way I see it working with the ball boy taking the risk of being scapegoated is if they assure him they'll hire him back OR they have a way to gift him untraced cash. Otherwise he's going to be at risk for selling his story to TMZ or something, like the disgruntled hotel employee did with the Ray Rice tape.

And if the kid is dumb enough to go out and buy a Porche after being fired.....

So for the last 14 years hundreds of past and current players and employees have kept their mouth shut about this? Every single one? Former employee Eric Mangini blew the whistle on spygate. Seems reasonable to think he or some like him would run their mouth about deflated balls.

 

[HunterSThompson]

Fix the game? But NE played better in the 2nd half after the balls were pumped up to the proper PSI.

Yeah. They could drum up that charge if the pieces fit. C'mon, I am just trying to brainstorm ideas as to how the NFL might strong arm a ball boy, if he was set-up as the fall guy. I agree it is ludicrous to think some ball boy did this on his own without direct orders.

 

[Jacoby4HOF66]

WetHog

Honest question...why are you defending the Pats?

Their history of cheating has been well documented. Marshall Faulk says he was robbed of a superbowl, the Carolina GM was told they were filming their practices during that superbowl.

The NFL finally put their foot down and said "DONT DO IT AGAIN!". What did the Pats do? They promptly went out and did it again.

The fumbling is huge. To go from a middling team to one that drastically out performs even the next closest team over several years is no accident. Coincided with Brady pushing for the new rule in 06.

BJGE had ZERO fumbles in 500 games+ with the Pats. He leaves and has 5 fumbles in under 500 carries with the Bengals. Every single running back thats been with more than one team has seen fewer fumbles per 100 carries when he was with the Pats.

Where there is smoke there is fire. They cheat. They are defiant about it. Just a flat out arrogant organization.

When Don Shula unpromted called him "Belicheat" you know thats made the rounds.

I defend NE primarily because I think this whole deflated balls thing is BS. Peyton Manning was front and center with Tom Brady back in 2006 to get the ball rule changed, and it took Manning less than a day to get 20 other NFL QB's to sign his petition. Also have Brad Johnson saying he teamed up with Rich Gannon to illegally pay someone to scuff up 100 balls that were to be used for SB37. Also have Aaron Rodgers saying he prefers his footballs over inflated. Also have Eli Manning saying he has worked out a complicated process with his equipment staff to get the balls he uses to be so broken in they feel 10 years old. Finally, got Joe Theismann saying he couldn't feel the difference between a 12 psi football and a 10 psi football when he went out to Redskins Park last week. My point, every NFL QB past, present and future likes their footballs to feel a certain way and they will do whatever they can to make that happen. And most are doing it against the rules.

I also defend NE because Bill Belichick is from my hometown, graduated from the same HS as me and I think he is one of the best NFL HC's of all time.

Taken all together and I think that is as good a reason to defend NE as attack them. Especially considering NE is facing that beacon of HC credibility in Pete Carroll in the SB.

 

[g00n]

See post #120, it was more than Tom Brady pushing this. Peyton Manning played a large role. And Manning got 20 other NFL QB's to sign his petition to change the rule in a day. So to say Brady led this charge so NE could have an advantage is a stretch. At least 22 NFL QB's in 2006 were pretty eager to change this rule.

As for fumble per touches, that does sound fishy, but then looking at NE turnover differential rank since 2000, NE has been outside the top 10 in turnover differential three times. Twice 2006 and before and once after 2006. Good teams don't turn the ball over, and NE has been a good team since 2000.

http://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/team-turnover-differential-statistics/2014/

Also, in regards to Glazer's report of a low level guy taking the footballs into a "undisclosed area", well it turns out that undisclosed area was a bathroom and the guy was in there for 90 seconds. Is that enough time to accurately drop the PSI in 11 out of 12 balls for NE? Or was the guy simply taking a piss?

Brady and Manning led that petition movement. Just because Manning was also involved doesn't mean Brady wasn't instrumental or had ulterior motives.

90 seconds is plenty of time to deflate 11 balls with a psi gauge/valve that sells for like $20-$30, especially if you've done it before. At first I thought that was too little time and then someone I know pointed out that such devices exist and are inexpensive. We never used to have those when I was playing organized sports so I also assumed he was taking a piss at first.

Read the link I posted and you'll see it's about fumbles, not just fumbles lost. It also limits the data to non-dome teams since weather isn't a factor. Turnover differential includes turnovers forced, which does not isolate the use of deflated balls on offense.

 

[g00n]

So for the last 14 years hundreds of past and current players and employees have kept their mouth shut about this? Every single one? Former employee Eric Mangini blew the whistle on spygate. Seems reasonable to think he or some like him would run their mouth about deflated balls.

14 years? More like 8 years (since 2007), and it only needs to be 3 people, like I said in the post you responded to. Not hundreds.

 

[g00n]

I defend NE primarily because I think this whole deflated balls thing is BS. Peyton Manning was front and center with Tom Brady back in 2006 to get the ball rule changed, and it took Manning less than a day to get 20 other NFL QB's to sign his petition. Also have Brad Johnson saying he teamed up with Rich Gannon to illegally pay someone to scuff up 100 balls that were to be used for SB37. Also have Aaron Rodgers saying he prefers his footballs over inflated. Also have Eli Manning saying he has worked out a complicated process with his equipment staff to get the balls he uses to be so broken in they feel 10 years old. Finally, got Joe Theismann saying he couldn't feel the difference between a 12 psi football and a 10 psi football when he went out to Redskins Park last week. My point, every NFL QB past, present and future likes their footballs to feel a certain way and they will do whatever they can to make that happen. And most are doing it against the rules.

I also defend NE because Bill Belichick is from my hometown, graduated from the same HS as me and I think he is one of the best NFL HC's of all time.

Taken all together and I think that is as good a reason to defend NE as attack them. Especially considering NE is facing that beacon of HC credibility in Pete Carroll in the SB.

The Johnson story was blown out of proportion. He said so. He and Gannon used the same balls and they deny doing anything illegal. All of the QBs you mention want the ball's surface broken in a bit for feel in throwing, which is not the same as deflating to illegal levels to prevent fumbling and make bad weather use easier than the opponent.

It's the difference between rubbing up a baseball and corking your bat.

 

[BobRouse]

I defend NE primarily because I think this whole deflated balls thing is BS. Peyton Manning was front and center with Tom Brady back in 2006 to get the ball rule changed, and it took Manning less than a day to get 20 other NFL QB's to sign his petition. Also have Brad Johnson saying he teamed up with Rich Gannon to illegally pay someone to scuff up 100 balls that were to be used for SB37. Also have Aaron Rodgers saying he prefers his footballs over inflated. Also have Eli Manning saying he has worked out a complicated process with his equipment staff to get the balls he uses to be so broken in they feel 10 years old. Finally, got Joe Theismann saying he couldn't feel the difference between a 12 psi football and a 10 psi football when he went out to Redskins Park last week. My point, every NFL QB past, present and future likes their footballs to feel a certain way and they will do whatever they can to make that happen. And most are doing it against the rules.

I also defend NE because Bill Belichick is from my hometown, graduated from the same HS as me and I think he is one of the best NFL HC's of all time.

Taken all together and I think that is as good a reason to defend NE as attack them. Especially considering NE is facing that beacon of HC credibility in Pete Carroll in the SB.

A few things:

Brad Johnson actually spoke to Rich Gannon before hand so thats fairly even I'd say. Also I don't recall Johnson saying he changed the pressure but more like scuffing up the balls.

Rodgers complained that he liked the balls at a certain pressure point and would get upset when the refs vetoed them. He never said they went and changed them after the refs approved them.

The Patriots are a repeat offender. They have been caught cheating several times before and have developed a pattern of disrespect to the league.

If it was "no big deal" then why do it in the first place? If you wanted to do it then why not have Brady lobby to have the range of PSI expanded?

The fact is they have done things well outside of the rules to gain themselves a competitive advantage.

I'd probably have a different mindset too if he went to my HS. I also do think he's one of the best coaches ever. That doesn't change the fact that he cheated.

Barry Bonds would have been one of the best hitters ever even if he didn't juice up and take HGH. But he did and got punished for it.

It rubbed me the wrong way how BB deflected it to Brady who deflected it to random ball boy. Then Kraft coming out with his statements that oozed of arrogant defiance. akkk

 

[Jacoby4HOF66]

Deflating a football 1 to 2 psi under the limit is a far cry from taking PED's to enhance your body like Bonds did, IMO.

As for the other stuff, a pattern of cheating? There is spygate and deflategate. Separated by 7 years. Spygate was proven, deflategate hasn't been proven. So I wouldn't go saying there is a pattern.

Right now there is a lot of media driven speculation. Much like the unfortunate Ferguson stuff from this summer. And like the Ferguson stuff, I will reserve my final opinion until all facts are known.

 

[Jacoby4HOF66]

14 years? More like 8 years (since 2007), and it only needs to be 3 people, like I said in the post you responded to. Not hundreds.

OK, not hundreds, but it only needs to be 3 people? Then what about the back up QB's since 2007? That is more than 3 people:

Matt Cassell
Matt Gutierrez
Kevin O'Connell
Brian Hoyer
Ryan Mallett
Jimmy Garoppolo

Stands to reason one, or all, of these guys had to throw footballs set up the way Brady likes it. Why hasn't one of them come out against Brady? Or written a book about Bill Belichick and Tom Brady's diabolical ways around the NFL football psi rule?

You say it only needs to be 3 people to keep the secret, well I say it only takes 1 to blow the whistle. And there hasn't been 1 in 7 years. The way Belichick and NE is hated someone could get 1 guy to spill the beans.

 

[g00n]

OK, not hundreds, but it only needs to be 3 people? Then what about the back up QB's since 2007? That is more than 3 people:

Matt Cassell
Matt Gutierrez
Kevin O'Connell
Brian Hoyer
Ryan Mallett
Jimmy Garoppolo

Stands to reason one, or all, of these guys had to throw footballs set up the way Brady likes it. Why hasn't one of them come out against Brady? Or written a book about Bill Belichick and Tom Brady's diabolical ways around the NFL football psi rule?

You say it only needs to be 3 people to keep the secret, well I say it only takes 1 to blow the whistle. And there hasn't been 1 in 7 years. The way Belichick and NE is hated someone could get 1 guy to spill the beans.

There is no reason for those backup QBs, who may never even touch a game ball, to be in on it.

 

[Jacoby4HOF66]

There is no reason for those backup QBs, who may never even touch a game ball, to be in on it.

Game balls are the only balls used on the field in warm ups, or so I read. Back up QB's do more than just stand around watching during warm ups.

And they don't have to be "in on it", just have to throw footballs to Tom Brady's specifications. Odds are very high they did. So they should know if the balls are under-inflated or not.

 

[g00n]

And truthfully, it only needs to be 1 person, which is the guy letting the air out. But that's highly unlikely as Brady would probably notice. It could just be Brady and the ball guy, with Belichick truly not knowing. But the chances are someone did it on purpose.

Did Gruden know about Johnson and Gannon "tipping" a ball kid to break in the balls? Maybe not. Maybe Brady is paying the ball guy on the side.

Or maybe it's the biggest 8 year run of luck in NFL history.

 

[BobRouse]

Deflating a football 1 to 2 psi under the limit is a far cry from taking PED's to enhance your body like Bonds did, IMO.

As for the other stuff, a pattern of cheating? There is spygate and deflategate. Separated by 7 years. Spygate was proven, deflategate hasn't been proven. So I wouldn't go saying there is a pattern.

Right now there is a lot of media driven speculation. Much like the unfortunate Ferguson stuff from this summer. And like the Ferguson stuff, I will reserve my final opinion until all facts are known.

Are we so sure of that? Those fumbling statistics are pretty amazing do you not think? Did BB just suddenly find a way to teach his players not to fumble in 2007? You know..the year RIGHT AFTER Brady and Co. lobbied for the rules? If anything this would be far far far worse than a single player on PEDs!

Just like that Ravens player said...the Patriots are habitual line steppers (cue Charlie Murphy voice).

Spaygate was going on for YEARS and the NFL became aware of it and warned the Patriots who continued to do it anyhow.

These two are the tip of the iceberg. Patriots don't care about rules and will do whatever they can to circumvent them.

There is no doubt that the balls were deflated on purpose by someone employed by the Patriots. To suggest this person did it without the knowledge of Brady is foolhardy.

 

[g00n]

Game balls are the only balls used on the field in warm ups, or so I read. Back up QB's do more than just stand around watching during warm ups.

And they don't have to be "in on it", just have to throw footballs to Tom Brady's specifications. Odds are very high they did. So they should know if the balls are under-inflated or not.

http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2...-game-balls/fCtQ38pBjBFXId0WJC2wpL/story.html

Per a former ref:

JD: “The equipment manager will bring a bag of 12 or 24 footballs — it depends on the weather. The backup balls they’ll keep in the locker room or the replay room during the game. But those footballs come directly from each equipment manager in a bag, and once they go into the officials’ locker room, nobody has access to them except for the officials. So nobody can sneak in there and let the air out or put air in or do anything. There’s usually a security guard in there, so the footballs sit in the officials’ locker room for two hours until they go out onto the field

Q: So the teams don’t warm up with the game balls?

JD: No, they don’t have the footballs. The footballs go out about 10 minutes before the game.

If a backup doesn't play in the game, he doesn't touch a game ball.

 

[Jacoby4HOF66]

And truthfully, it only needs to be 1 person, which is the guy letting the air out. But that's highly unlikely as Brady would probably notice. It could just be Brady and the ball guy, with Belichick truly not knowing. But the chances are someone did it on purpose.

Did Gruden know about Johnson and Gannon "tipping" a ball kid to break in the balls? Maybe not. Maybe Brady is paying the ball guy on the side.

Or maybe it's the biggest 8 year run of luck in NFL history.

A lot of maybe's and if's to be sure. To many for me to get all worked up about it, but clearly I am in the minority.

 

[g00n]

A lot of maybe's and if's to be sure. To many for me to get all worked up about it, but clearly I am in the minority.

I'm not worked up and I'm not 100% convinced of what happened. But some theories do seem more likely than others right now. Every possibility short of a confession or a smoking gun is an "if", and that includes scenarios where the Pats did nothing wrong.

 

[Jacoby4HOF66]

Are we so sure of that? Those fumbling statistics are pretty amazing do you not think? Did BB just suddenly find a way to teach his players not to fumble in 2007? You know..the year RIGHT AFTER Brady and Co. lobbied for the rules? If anything this would be far far far worse than a single player on PEDs!

Just like that Ravens player said...the Patriots are habitual line steppers (cue Charlie Murphy voice).

Spaygate was going on for YEARS and the NFL became aware of it and warned the Patriots who continued to do it anyhow.

These two are the tip of the iceberg. Patriots don't care about rules and will do whatever they can to circumvent them.

There is no doubt that the balls were deflated on purpose by someone employed by the Patriots. To suggest this person did it without the knowledge of Brady is foolhardy.

-Taking 1 to 2 psi out of a football is no where near purposely injecting/ingesting PED's in order to ensure a competitive advantage. We will have to agree to disagree on that.

-One player said "habitual line steppers", Chris Canty, and he deserves credit for quoting Charlie Murphy.

-Meh to spygate. Sure NE got caught, and deserved their punishment, but what they did is no different then Joe Gibbs saying Stan Humphries had a chronic pulled groin so he could stash Humphries on the practice squad. Same for Mark Rypien. Stashing players on the practice squad was cheating. And when the Skins couldn't do it anymore the team hasn't been good since.

-Every team in every sport tries to get a competitive advantage. Take SEA for instance. Last year during their SB run Pete Carroll instructed his defensive backs to hold, interfere, etc... to opposing WR's because Carroll knew the Refs wouldn't call all of the penalties. As a result this past years defensive interference/holding rules were more strictly enforced.

"They look at it and say, 'We may get called for one but not 10,'" said Mike Pereira, a former NFL vice president of officiating who is now a Fox analyst.

League insiders say this divisional-round matchup between the Seahawks and Saints, the NFC's top passing offense, may be Seattle's rule-bending masterpiece.

"They just seem to not care about the rules," said New York Giants wide receiver Louis Murphy, whose team was routed 23-0 by Seattle this season.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702303754404579310500005285822

As explained by FOX’s Mike Pereira on Twitter, a former NFL V.P. of officiating, illegal contact and defensive holding will be a point of emphasis in 2014.

As a practical matter, it’s the Legion of Boom rule. In 2013, the Seahawks brazenly committed illegal contact and holding, knowing that, if illegal contact happens on every play, the officials won’t throw a flag on every play. In an intriguing segment that aired on NBCSN’s NFL Turning Point, Seattle cornerback Richard Sherman was displaying to a teammate on the practice field techniques for concealing illegal contact.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/07/21/get-ready-for-the-legion-of-boom-rule/

-SEA didn't care about the rules and they won a SB as a result.

 

[Ajax1995]

Are we so sure of that?

Did Theismann say just a couple of days ago he went out to Redskins park and threw around a 13 psi ball and a 11 psi ball and he couldn't tell the difference?

 

[Jacoby4HOF66]

Did Theismann say just a couple of days ago he went out to Redskins park and threw around a 13 psi ball and a 11 psi ball and he couldn't tell the difference?

He did:

“I knew I’d be asked a lot of questions, start to do a lot of interviews,’’ the 65-year-old Theismann said during a autograph and photo session Thursday to promote a Super Bowl contest that will benefit military veterans and their families. “And instead of pre-supposing what something might feel like or what it may do, I decided to go out out to Redskins Park and see what a ball felt like at 13 PSI, versus 11.’’

“You really have to push it to feel the difference in it. It’s negligible, as far as I’m concerned,’’ he said. For that, and a few other reasons, he concluded that for practical purposes, the possibility that the Patriots used altered footballs in the AFC championship game was “not a big deal. A rules violation, yes, but not that big a deal.’’

http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/sto...ifference-patriots-belichick-afc-championship

 

[BrooklynCapsFan]

Brady has previously stated that he likes an underinflated ball, so presumably he can feel the difference at some point.

 

[BobRouse]

-Taking 1 to 2 psi out of a football is no where near purposely injecting/ingesting PED's in order to ensure a competitive advantage. We will have to agree to disagree on that.

-One player said "habitual line steppers", Chris Canty, and he deserves credit for quoting Charlie Murphy.

-Meh to spygate. Sure NE got caught, and deserved their punishment, but what they did is no different then Joe Gibbs saying Stan Humphries had a chronic pulled groin so he could stash Humphries on the practice squad. Same for Mark Rypien. Stashing players on the practice squad was cheating. And when the Skins couldn't do it anymore the team hasn't been good since.

-Every team in every sport tries to get a competitive advantage. Take SEA for instance. Last year during their SB run Pete Carroll instructed his defensive backs to hold, interfere, etc... to opposing WR's because Carroll knew the Refs wouldn't call all of the penalties. As a result this past years defensive interference/holding rules were more strictly enforced.



http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702303754404579310500005285822



http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/07/21/get-ready-for-the-legion-of-boom-rule/

-SEA didn't care about the rules and they won a SB as a result.

Either way if you get caught you get penalized. Organization wide cheating is much more severe and hence why Richard Sherman won't cost the Seahawks a 1st round pick if he gets caught holding.

Did Theismann say just a couple of days ago he went out to Redskins park and threw around a 13 psi ball and a 11 psi ball and he couldn't tell the difference?

Bettis and Brunell easily told the difference when they were given the test.

Clearly Brady does notice a difference hence why he wants them under inflated.

The Patriots fumbling history tells you all you need to know really. That kind of outlying number is hard to explain away.