Player Discussion: Neal Pionk Part 2

[WolfHouse]

Culture is great and all, but at some point getting better and winning has to trump keeping an underperforming guy just because he’s good in the room.

Guys want to win. A better player improves culture too.

Pretty wild that we will let Dillon or DeMelo walk because TNSE doesn't want to buy out Pionk and Schmidt... setting up a scenario where Pionk ends up promoted to top pairing haha

 

[Buffdog]

Culture is great and all, but at some point getting better and winning has to trump keeping an underperforming guy just because he’s good in the room.

Guys want to win. A better player improves culture too

Yes and no. In a place that doesn't have a bunch going for it, a strong culture is important

If TNSE gets the reputation of signing guys who want to be here and then kicking them to the curb, good players might think twice about coming here and/or extending here

Which would make winning harder

 

[surixon]

Yes and no. In a place that doesn't have a bunch going for it, a strong culture is important

If TNSE gets the reputation of signing guys who want to be here and then kicking them to the curb, good players might think twice about coming here and/or extending here

Which would make winning harder

There is a balance to all this. Eventually you also have to contribute on the ice. It's not like they'd be dumping him right after signing the deal. He's been here half a decade now and has a number of poor performance years now. You also need to properly reward performance otherwise you get others not wanting to lock in as they don't feel their contributions are appreciated.

 

[Buffdog]

There is a balance to all this. Eventually you also have to contribute on the ice. It's not like they'd be dumping him right after signing the deal. He's been here half a decade now and has a number of poor performance years now. You also need to properly reward performance otherwise you get others not wanting to lock in as they don't feel their contributions are appreciated.

Yup. Every decision needs to be looked at from every angle

Too often people think "fire this guy" and "put that guy on the 4th line", etc without looking at the whole picture form the 30,000 foot view

 

[10Ducky10]

I gave Pionk abreak because he played so well in the playoffs.
Well, this season he was the shits in the playoffs.
I hope they don't extend him.

 

[Bob E]

Yes and no. In a place that doesn't have a bunch going for it, a strong culture is important

If TNSE gets the reputation of signing guys who want to be here and then kicking them to the curb, good players might think twice about coming here and/or extending here

Which would make winning harder

I wonder what Pionk is thinking. Does he want to stay after his current contract is up?

My hope is the Jets don’t just play a non-performing player over a better option, just because.

 

[Gm0ney]

The Jets have had a pretty stable Top 6 of defensemen over the last 2 seasons. In descending order of 5v5 ice-time:

Morrissey
Pionk
DeMelo
Dillon
Schmidt
Samberg

Out of this group at 5v5, Pionk is last in: CF/60, CA/60, CF%*, FA/60, FF%*, SF/60, SA/60, SF%*, GA/60, GF%* , xGA/60, xGF%*, SCF/60, SCA/60, SCF%*, HDCF/60, HDCA/60, HDCF%*.

His PDO is 1.007 so you can't really say he's been particularly lucky or unlucky with on-ice SH% and SV%.

* He's the only one of these defenders who's below 50% in those categories, and the gaps between him and the next-worst defender aren't very close.

He's 2nd in PP time over the last 2 seasons. He has a GF/60 of 5.09, an xGF/60 of 5.79 and a SCF/60 of 42.46 - he's about as effective as Nate Schmidt (which is to say "not very").

He's 4th in PK time. He's about average in terms of Jets defensemen penalty killing (also not great).

He's spent the most time paired with Dillon (almost 60% at 5v5). His results have been equally poor with or without Dillon. Dillon without Pionk has really good 5v5 numbers.

Pionk is not an effective NHL defenseman and he's legitimately hurting the team. But the Jets are going to keep him despite him being an anchor because...they're paying him a lot and I guess he's a good guy in the room? Pavelec 2.0.

 

[Buffdog]

The Jets have had a pretty stable Top 6 of defensemen over the last 2 seasons. In descending order of 5v5 ice-time:

Morrissey
Pionk
DeMelo
Dillon
Schmidt
Samberg

Out of this group at 5v5, Pionk is last in: CF/60, CA/60, CF%*, FA/60, FF%*, SF/60, SA/60, SF%*, GA/60, GF%* , xGA/60, xGF%*, SCF/60, SCA/60, SCF%*, HDCF/60, HDCA/60, HDCF%*.

His PDO is 1.007 so you can't really say he's been particularly lucky or unlucky with on-ice SH% and SV%.

* He's the only one of these defenders who's below 50% in those categories, and the gaps between him and the next-worst defender aren't very close.

He's 2nd in PP time over the last 2 seasons. He has a GF/60 of 5.09, an xGF/60 of 5.79 and a SCF/60 of 42.46 - he's about as effective as Nate Schmidt (which is to say "not very").

He's 4th in PK time. He's about average in terms of Jets defensemen penalty killing (also not great).

He's spent the most time paired with Dillon (almost 60% at 5v5). His results have been equally poor with or without Dillon. Dillon without Pionk has really good 5v5 numbers.

Pionk is not an effective NHL defenseman and he's legitimately hurting the team. But the Jets are going to keep him despite him being an anchor because...they're paying him a lot and I guess he's a good guy in the room? Pavelec 2.0.

@Gm0ney on his first day as GM:

"Hey Neal, thanks for coming in to talk to me. Over the past few years, you've been the worst defenseman this team has had in terms of these metrics (pulls put copy of spreadsheet and hands it to Pionk)"

He goes on...

"As you can see, not only are you not helping the team but you're actively hurting us. As a result, we're buying you out and bringing in someone better. Good luck and have a nice day"

*word gets around the league*

Three months later...

"This is weird, why doesn't anyone want to sign here or extend here anymore?"

 

[WolfHouse]

@Gm0ney on his first day as GM:

"Hey Neal, thanks for coming in to talk to me. Over the past few years, you've been the worst defenseman this team has had in terms of these metrics (pulls put copy of spreadsheet and hands it to Pionk)"

He goes on...

"As you can see, not only are you not helping the team but you're actively hurting us. As a result, we're buying you out and bringing in someone better. Good luck and have a nice day"

*word gets around the league*

Three months later...

"This is weird, why doesn't anyone want to sign here or extend here anymore?"

Hahaha cmon. You think guys won't sign here because we buy out a terrible defenceman? Just a slight over-reaction there....

'Hey Dylan, thanks for signing with us at a super affordable rate and being our top pairing RD for these past four years... oh and for mentoring rookies when we need it too - you've pretty much done all we've asked and your numbers are really solid.

So we're prepared to offer you 3.5 million for 3 years... we'd like to pay more but Pionk and Schmidt are each making 6 million - and if we buy them out, no one will sign here. Otherwise, we'll have to let you go.'

 

[DRW204]

Wonder if Scheifele, Helle, Nino, Names, Vilardi knew we bought out a former Captain in Wheeler prior to them signing.... I hope word doesn't get to Dillon, or Demelo either

 

[Gm0ney]

@Gm0ney on his first day as GM:

"Hey Neal, thanks for coming in to talk to me. Over the past few years, you've been the worst defenseman this team has had in terms of these metrics (pulls put copy of spreadsheet and hands it to Pionk)"

He goes on...

"As you can see, not only are you not helping the team but you're actively hurting us. As a result, we're buying you out and bringing in someone better. Good luck and have a nice day"

*word gets around the league*

Three months later...

"This is weird, why doesn't anyone want to sign here or extend here anymore?"

Well, maybe players looking for long term employment with zero accountability would be turned off.

Players wanting to win might appreciate a team willing to go to the extreme lengths of shipping out its worst defenseman in the pursuit of success.

Or do you mean that Neal Pionk is actually widely considered to be an effective defenseman? Is there some actual basis for thinking that Pionk is helping the Jets - aside from being allowed to mug McDavid for 4 games in 2020 while Hellebuyck stood on his head?

 

[Slimy Sculpin]

The Jets have had a pretty stable Top 6 of defensemen over the last 2 seasons. In descending order of 5v5 ice-time:

Morrissey
Pionk
DeMelo
Dillon
Schmidt
Samberg

Out of this group at 5v5, Pionk is last in: CF/60, CA/60, CF%*, FA/60, FF%*, SF/60, SA/60, SF%*, GA/60, GF%* , xGA/60, xGF%*, SCF/60, SCA/60, SCF%*, HDCF/60, HDCA/60, HDCF%*.

His PDO is 1.007 so you can't really say he's been particularly lucky or unlucky with on-ice SH% and SV%.

* He's the only one of these defenders who's below 50% in those categories, and the gaps between him and the next-worst defender aren't very close.

He's 2nd in PP time over the last 2 seasons. He has a GF/60 of 5.09, an xGF/60 of 5.79 and a SCF/60 of 42.46 - he's about as effective as Nate Schmidt (which is to say "not very").

He's 4th in PK time. He's about average in terms of Jets defensemen penalty killing (also not great).

He's spent the most time paired with Dillon (almost 60% at 5v5). His results have been equally poor with or without Dillon. Dillon without Pionk has really good 5v5 numbers.

Pionk is not an effective NHL defenseman and he's legitimately hurting the team. But the Jets are going to keep him despite him being an anchor because...they're paying him a lot and I guess he's a good guy in the room? Pavelec 2.0.

Thanks for digging up this information. It looks like the your stats (actual data) match my stats (eye test). It's a rare occurrence but the Jets have dumped/bought out a couple of players over the years so, assuming, the budget can handle it, why not show the door to Mr. Pionk?

 

[Buffdog]

Hahaha cmon. You think guys won't sign here because we buy out a terrible defenceman? Just a slight over-reaction there....

'Hey Dylan, thanks for signing with us at a super affordable rate and being our top pairing RD for these past four years... oh and for mentoring rookies when we need it too - you've pretty much done all we've asked and your numbers are really solid.

So we're prepared to offer you 3.5 million for 3 years... we'd like to pay more but Pionk and Schmidt are each making 6 million - and if we buy them out, no one will sign here. Otherwise, we'll have to let you go.'

I'm not saying that

What I AM saying is that there is a relational component that goes into the decision making process. Like it or not, TNSE is huge on that and we've heard from current one former players how important it is. One was Pionk himself when Chipper chartered a plane for him and other Jets to attend Adam Johnson's funeral

The only buyout we've seen have been as much for the player as the org. That's not the case with Pionk

 

[Buffdog]

Well, maybe players looking for long term employment with zero accountability would be turned off.

Players wanting to win might appreciate a team willing to go to the extreme lengths of shipping out its worst defenseman in the pursuit of success.

Or do you mean that Neal Pionk is actually widely considered to be an effective defenseman? Is there some actual basis for thinking that Pionk is helping the Jets - aside from being allowed to mug McDavid for 4 games in 2020 while Hellebuyck stood on his head?

I'm not saying that either. What I'm saying is improve the lineup to a point where he can play sheltered 3rd pairing minutes and maybe even be rotated in and out of the line up. It's clear to everyone (not only through your stats but also via eye test) that he's punching above his weight (and not landing many lol)

Of course players want to win. But they won't want to do so in a cut throat environment

 

[Board Bard]

*word gets around the league*

Three months later...

"This is weird, why doesn't anyone want to sign here or extend here anymore?"

What a load of unmitigated bollocks. It would be more like:

Three months later, NHL players thinking...

"I see the Jets are finally learning how to throw out the trash. Maybe it's not a dead end after all."

 

[surixon]

I'm not saying that either. What I'm saying is improve the lineup to a point where he can play sheltered 3rd pairing minutes and maybe even be rotated in and out of the line up. It's clear to everyone (not only through your stats but also via eye test) that he's punching above his weight (and not landing many lol)

Of course players want to win. But they won't want to do so in a cut throat environment

Doesn't seem to be impacting Vegas much and they are super cut throat.

No one is saying we need to be as extreme but there needs to be some level of accountability for performance. Players should be expected to be receiving honest appraisal for their play.

 

[Buffdog]

Doesn't seem to be impacting Vegas much and they are super cut throat.

No one is saying we need to be as extreme but there needs to be some level of accountability for performance. Players should be expected to be receiving honest appraisal for their play.

It's almost like there are other upsides to signing in Vegas

 

[Channelcat]

Pretty wild that we will let Dillon or DeMelo walk because TNSE doesn't want to buy out Pionk and Schmidt... setting up a scenario where Pionk ends up promoted to top pairing haha

It wouldn't make sense to buy out guys going into their contract year. There's plenty of of space to sign Demelo. And Dillon has been very good for us, but I'd certainly be willing to lose him if there are better options.

 

[Buffdog]

What a load of unmitigated bollocks. It would be more like:

Three months later, NHL players thinking...

"I see the Jets are finally learning how to throw out the trash. Maybe it's not a dead end after all."

You tell yourself that. These guys are all buddies. Everyone knows everyone, or at least knows somebody who knows everyone

The reason Schmidt waived to come here is because Stats called him and vouched for the org. It's a door that swings both ways. Imagine we try to trade for/sign a player and he talks to a buddy who says "yeah, it's cold as f*** there and management will move on from you. Don't bother even getting your family settled"

 

[WaveRaven]

Like Ehlers they will try their best sign him. Player retention is huge to TNSE.

I don't get the Vegas attraction I would not want to live there.

 

[Gm0ney]

You tell yourself that. These guys are all buddies. Everyone knows everyone, or at least knows somebody who knows everyone

The reason Schmidt waived to come here is because Stats called him and vouched for the org. It's a door that swings both ways. Imagine we try to trade for/sign a player and he talks to a buddy who says "yeah, it's cold as f*** there and management will move on from you. Don't bother even getting your family settled"

"Stastny helped to bring in a major reason we're not going to be able to re-sign better players in DeMelo and Dillon!" might not be the greatest example to use here...

Anyway, it's a long way from "unloading your worst defenseman" to "this organization will move on from you". Yeah they should move on if you suck. The message the team sends by doing the exact opposite is worse.

 

[Duke749]

Wonder if Scheifele, Helle, Nino, Names, Vilardi knew we bought out a former Captain in Wheeler prior to them signing.... I hope word doesn't get to Dillon, or Demelo either

I think more than anything, they’ll see that we treated Wheeler very well in his time here.

What a load of unmitigated bollocks. It would be more like:

Three months later, NHL players thinking...

"I see the Jets are finally learning how to throw out the trash. Maybe it's not a dead end after all."

…..why would any player think that? They want a reason to sign here. Not a reason to avoid coming here. Players want to play regardless of where that’s located. If they think you’ll be gone at the first sign of bad play, they’ll never sign here.

 

[DRW204]

unless the Jets are super tight against the cap, and having trouble to sign players this year i find the idea of buy-outs pretty far fetched. regardless, they bought out a well-respected member of the team, organization and city, who played through injuries, gave back to the community etc. and a bunch of key players still signed. i think it's a bit of a reach on the topic of Pionk imo. and this isn't the "first sign of bad play" from him.

I think more than anything, they’ll see that we treated Wheeler very well in his time here.



…..why would any player think that? They want a reason to sign here. Not a reason to avoid coming here. Players want to play regardless of where that’s located. If they think you’ll be gone at the first sign of bad play, they’ll never sign here.

 

[Buffdog]

"Stastny helped to bring in a major reason we're not going to be able to re-sign better players in DeMelo and Dillon!" might not be the greatest example to use here...

Anyway, it's a long way from "unloading your worst defenseman" to "this organization will move on from you". Yeah they should move on if you suck. The message the team sends by doing the exact opposite is worse.

Trading for Schmidt was like so many choices that I made when I was much younger lol... "well, it seemed like it was a good idea at the time..."

But he's a perfect example of how to treat a vet whose play has suffered. For all the shitting on Bones for his love of vets, he had no problem moving Schmidt to the PB (albeit for the wrong player - should have been Miller in the lien up over Stanley). He communicated with him the whole time, and kept him happy.

Pionk should get a similar treatment

 

[Dale53130]

I'm not saying that either. What I'm saying is improve the lineup to a point where he can play sheltered 3rd pairing minutes and maybe even be rotated in and out of the line up. It's clear to everyone (not only through your stats but also via eye test) that he's punching above his weight (and not landing many lol)

Of course players want to win. But they won't want to do so in a cut throat environment

I was thinking about this too recently, about Pionk being on the 3rd pairing. He's likely one of those guys that's (relatively) well conditioned to play heavier minutes, but his mental game drops off substantially after a certain point. Opening the door for more mental lapses, poor judgement, trying to do too much, etc. If he gets MUCH less than 20 minutes per game, compact minutes, I tend to think he's the type of player who would perform better on secondary special teams, than he's shown in recent years.

I also think the Jets will quickly become a feeder system to bigger market (or more desirable) teams, if they don't handle pretty much everything in a "classy" way. Like I would have told Trouba to eff off if he doesn't want to build something here, but they handled his situation correctly. And honoring pretty much all of the ex-players the right way, goes a long way too.