Nashville to raise ticket prices as much as 50%

Status
Not open for further replies.

SPARTAKUS*

Guest
he could've achieved this last lockout ('94-'95). count me among the bitter ! :madfire:

Yeah I know hawker but it's over you need to get over it for you're own good. in 94-95 the players had all the levrage in 04-05 it was the owners turn to have all the levrage. Let go of the bitterness you will feel a whole lot better I promise. :D
 

puckhead103*

Guest
Yeah I know hawker but it's over you need to get over it for you're own good. in 94-95 the players had all the levrage in 04-05 it was the owners turn to have all the levrage. Let go of the bitterness you will feel a whole lot better I promise. :D
the old chap is bitter because the jets left when nhl failed to get a salary cap....
 

Hawker14

Registered User
Oct 27, 2004
3,084
0
Yeah I know hawker but it's over you need to get over it for you're own good. in 94-95 the players had all the levrage in 04-05 it was the owners turn to have all the levrage. Let go of the bitterness you will feel a whole lot better I promise. :D

umm, impossible. thanks for the advice though, alot of people say the same thing. :dunno:

btw, does hearst still have the big pee wee hockey tournament in march each year ?
 

Sotnos

Registered User
Jul 8, 2002
10,885
1
Not here
www.boltprospects.com
Really what I'm trying to figure out is why fans are not outraged by this.
Because it's not a surprise to anyone maybe? You act like you were the only one who figured out that ticket prices would continue to go up regardless of the CBA.

Nashville tickets were VERY reasonable last year and they still are. Even a 50% increase on some of those prices wouldn't add up to much. Did you even look at their ticket prices before you started all this?
 

Fugu

Guest
Man, hockeytown9321 is bitter. Let it go it's over. Bettman did a fantastic job during the lockout. And I don't think that they are to many unhappy fans right now.


I don't think he is alone. Every single time the guy puts up a post, there is a group (and it's the same people every time) who pile on. None of these people bother to argue the point, as would be the "point" to a hockey message board. Nope, they single the guy out and launch slurs-- because he happens to have a different opinion?

So who is bitter here?
 

Ted Hoffman

The other Rick Zombo
Dec 15, 2002
29,220
8,625
If you want to hear outrage, talk to the St. Louis Blues fans whose season ticket prices went up an incredible 62.5%; last year, they were paying $8 per game for tickets in the upper ends; this year, they're being asked to pay a whopping $13 per game. (Single-game tickets will remain at $15 for those seats.)
 

Fugu

Guest
That was my point entirely. You want a winning team? Spend a lot. That was the name of the game in the old CBA.

Sorry, you still are missing the point. Consistently - means over time, not just a single year - you never qualified your statement. The Canes are a winning team with a successful on-ice product.

Furthermore, this has little to do with "cost certainty" which was the real point to the CBA.



In the old CBA you couldn't keep the core of the team unless you had high payroll. In the new CBA the situation is practically the same for every team. That's the point of the new CBA. Equal playing field ('equal' being a relative term compared to the old situation)

In the new CBA, no one will be able to keep a core together consistently. Under the old CBA, a team that built success and decided to spend to keep its core together had that choice (Colorado is not a big market team, for example). Furthermore all those big money signings came for depreciating assets (31+ set). You still only view evidence that supports your statements, none that dispute it. If money offered such a huge advantage, why did most of the big spenders have no Cups to show for it?



Please, I have a masters' degree in business, I know all about that.

Sorry but usually I can spot someone who holds advanced degrees in business (as do I) because they apply fundamental economics and marketing principles on their own, instead waiting for another poster to pick their posts apart. You were playing fast and loose with the numbers, and extrapolating to positions that could not be supported by the all the data- just some very carefully selected data.

16M discrepancy is VERY small compared to 50M discrepancy. If 16M gets you that, 50M will get you ALL of those players you mentioned.

It's small when compared to previous situation.

Yeah, I know the Euro has risen a lot in the past few years, but $16 MM to me is still a heck of a lot of money. If I can sign 3 Daniel Briere's when the next guy can't... I have an advantage. If you want to say that it is small compared to the previous situation, that situation- per your own admission - affected less than 1/3 of all teams, most of whom never won anything



That's not the point - the point is that Nashville might reach a situation where they can have a financially healthy team even with 44M payroll. Nobody expects them to become a moneymaker like Leafs and frankly no team can ever reach Leafs level in terms of revenue.

Without revenue sharing, Nashville and a handful of other teams will still be borderline healthy financially when the cap is at $44 MM, or even higher as some expect it could get to $50 MM. Please recall that a team was placed in Nashville and that expansion was undertaken to aid in getting a national TV contract. When that did not happen, serious flaws to the plan were exposed-- meaning that there was plenty of money in the NHL, but unfortunately it was concentrated in fewer than 30 places.

However.... the most important point here is this. Let's say you are right. Nashville has a great deal of success and somehow manages to live happily with a $44 MM cap. What happens when it is their turn to cycle down? (or the other teams that can't spend because they are rebuilding?) I don't think the revenue redistribution at 100% levels will be possible if they are in decline, further hurting their financial health. Under this CBA they have to spend at a minimum $10 MM+ more than they were spending before. I know you will say that is not a lot of money, but again to us Americans who don't have Euros to throw around, I still believe EVEN $10 MM is a lot of money. Do you get it now? The cap is a bit too high for weak teams over the long haul?



I was talking about long-term, not just one year. And the one-off 24% player cost reduction was done to correct the market.

So you are saying that the incredibly high player costs pre-lockout did not contribute at all to what had been perceived as "high" ticket prices around the league?

I wonder who ever said that they did?

Yet you did say that the cap would be one factor that reduced the pressure on teams to raise ticket prices. Can you decide which it is?

Are you sure about the US situation? Over here in Europe purchasing power has increased steadily at the rate of 1-3% annually for the last 10 years or so.

I find it very hard to believe that U.S is different, U.S has enjoyed a healthy GDP growth since early 90s which means increasing purchasing power 99% of the time. There hasn't been stagflation in the last 15 years or so according to the data I've seen.

I understand that you are in Europe and will assume you have to translate some economics terms-- which may not always capture subtle distinctions.

Purchasing Power and Purchasing Power Parity are two separate things (and you probably know this as I write it out). For example, in 1970 an "average income" worker could buy a new, family-size automobile with 2 month's wages, usually paid in cash. Today that same type of sedan costs $35,000 or more, while the average income is now $46,326. The dollar does not go as far. The best example of Purchasing Power Parity (PPP) is The Economist's Big Mac Index. You perhaps would pay more for a Big Mac (if you decided to buy one) than I would pay for one here. That means that the US PPP relative to other countries is better as it takes less money to buy a similar basket of required goods. (Note: I have not seen this index for the last year so I do not know what is actually shown.)

If salaries can stay ahead of inflation, as you know, the erosion to Purchasing Power is not as great. The fear in the US has been that overly low interest rates and the growth in GDP did produce inflation at a higher rate than has been reported. Heck, we've seen fuel prices go up 50-100% in the last few years. Health care costs always outpace the inflation rate. The economy was at a precipitous point however if you raised interest rates, it would all come crashing down quite quickly. If you kept them too low, you risked super inflationary rates. GDP has slowed from the late 1990's, the US has lost more jobs than it has been able to create in the last few years, and income growth has stalled. Meanwhile our budget deficit is at a catastrophic level, and our trade imbalance with countries like China is ballooning. It is wealth transfer, pure and simple. The exchange rates reflect this as well.

Here is a link to US Income data, the latest release showing that real median income rose for the first time since 1999, by 1.1%. I don't know what the decreases were in the 1999-2004 period.


--Sorry for the economics diversion--
 
Last edited by a moderator:

hockeytown9321

Registered User
Jun 18, 2004
2,358
0
Sorry, you still are missing the point. Consistently - means over time, not just a single year - you never qualified your statement. The Canes are a winning team with a successful on-ice product.

Furthermore, this has little to do with "cost certainty" which was the real point to the CBA.





In the new CBA, no one will be able to keep a core together consistently. Under the old CBA, a team that built success and decided to spend to keep its core together had that choice (Colorado is not a big market team, for example). Furthermore all those big money signings came for depreciating assets (31+ set). You still only view evidence that supports your statements, none that dispute it. If money offered such a huge advantage, why did most of the big spenders have no Cups to show for it?





Sorry but usually I can spot someone who holds advanced degrees in business (as do I) because they apply fundamental economics and marketing principles on their own, instead waiting for another poster to pick their posts apart. You were playing fast and loose with the numbers, and extrapolating to positions that could not be supported by the all the data- just some very carefully selected data.



Yeah, I know the Euro has risen a lot in the past few years, but $16 MM to me is still a heck of a lot of money. If I can sign 3 Daniel Briere's when the next guy can't... I have an advantage. If you want to say that it is small compared to the previous situation, that situation- per your own admission - affected less than 1/3 of all teams, most of whom never won anything





Without revenue sharing, Nashville and a handful of other teams will still be borderline healthy financially when the cap is at $44 MM, or even higher as some expect it could get to $50 MM. Please recall that a team was placed in Nashville and that expansion was undertaken to aid in getting a national TV contract. When that did not happen, serious flaws to the plan were exposed-- meaning that there was plenty of money in the NHL, but unfortunately it was concentrated in fewer than 30 places.

However.... the most important point here is this. Let's say you are right. Nashville has a great deal of success and somehow manages to live happily with a $44 MM cap. What happens when it is their turn to cycle down? (or the other teams that can't spend because they are rebuilding?) I don't think the revenue redistribution at 100% levels will be possible if they are in decline, further hurting their financial health. Under this CBA they have to spend at a minimum $10 MM+ more than they were spending before. I know you will say that is not a lot of money, but again to us Americans who don't have Euros to throw around, I still believe EVEN $10 MM is a lot of money. Do you get it now? The cap is a bit too high for weak teams over the long haul?





So you are saying that the incredibly high player costs pre-lockout did not contribute at all to what had been perceived as "high" ticket prices around the league?

I wonder who ever said that they did?

Yet you did say that the cap would be one factor that reduced the pressure on teams to raise ticket prices. Can you decide which it is?



I understand that you are in Europe and will assume you have to translate some economics terms-- which may not always capture subtle distinctions.

Purchasing Power and Purchasing Power Parity are two separate things (and you probably know this as I write it out). For example, in 1970 an "average income" worker could buy a new, family-size automobile with 2 monthh's wages, usually paid in cash. Today that same type of sedan costs $35,000 or more, while the average income is now $46,326. The dollar does not go as far. The best example of Purchasing Power Parity (PPP) is The Economist's Big Mac Index. You perhaps would pay more for a Big Mac (if you decided to buy one) than I would pay for one here. That means that the US PPP relative to other countries is better as it takes less money to buy a similar basket of required goods. (Note: I have not seen this index for the last year so I do not know what is actually shown.)

If salaries can stay ahead of inflation, as you know, the erosion to Purchasing Power is not as great. The fear in the US has been that overly low interest rates and the growth in GDP did produce inflation at a higher rate than has been reported. Heck, we've seen fuel prices go up 50-100% in the last few years. Health care costs always outpace the inflation rate. The economy was at a precipitous point however if you raised interest rates, it would all come crashing down quite quickly. If you kept them too low, you risked super inflationary rates. GDP has slowed from the late 1990's, the US has lost more jobs than it has been able to create in the last few years, and income growth has stalled. Meanwhile our budget deficit is at a catastrophic level, and our trade imbalance with countries like China is ballooning. It is wealth transfer, pure and simple. The exchange rates reflect this as well.

Here is a link to US Income data, the latest release showing that real median income rose for the first time since 1999, by 1.1%. I don't know what the decreases were in the 1999-2004 period.


--Sorry for the economics diversion--


Fugu, you are quickly becoming one of my favorite people.
 

hockeytown9321

Registered User
Jun 18, 2004
2,358
0
Of course, but if baseball had a fair system of revenue sharing...and more stringent policies were enacted to ensure that owners of the aformentioned teams HAD to re-invest the money into the team rather than pocketing it(which they almost all currently do), it'd be a different story. Keeping teams viable, alone, isn't what makes for a good CBA. Keeping them viable and having everyone able to compete, YEAR IN AND YEAR OUT...is.

I agree 100% that those teams who get luxury tax and revenue sharing checks should be forced to reinvest them in the team. Big Stein feels they same way. I think its the Pittsburgh and Kansas City's of the world that would argue against that. They simply do not want to compete.

As to your other point, if there was complete parity, no one would be able to compete every year. It would be inherently impossible.
 

hockeytown9321

Registered User
Jun 18, 2004
2,358
0
. When that did not happen, serious flaws to the plan were exposed-- meaning that there was plenty of money in the NHL, but unfortunately it was concentrated in fewer than 30 places.

I just want to emphasize this part. The first step to any kind of economic parity in the NHL would have been to reduce the enormous differences in revenue. I really don't think the new CBA addressed that enough, and as the cap goes up, low revenue teams are going to be in major trouble.

Revenue sharing was the real key to the NFL's success, not the cap. Since MLB's current deal was signed(2002), there have been 8 different WS participants, and 4 different champs.
 

SPARTAKUS*

Guest
umm, impossible. thanks for the advice though, alot of people say the same thing. :dunno:

btw, does hearst still have the big pee wee hockey tournament in march each year ?

Yes we still have it.
 

SPARTAKUS*

Guest
I don't think he is alone. Every single time the guy puts up a post, there is a group (and it's the same people every time) who pile on. None of these people bother to argue the point, as would be the "point" to a hockey message board. Nope, they single the guy out and launch slurs-- because he happens to have a different opinion?

So who is bitter here?

That's just it. It is futile to be discussing something that is a fact and will not change. The NHL has a salary cap that is a fact. So every time that a club raises their ticket prices all the Betteman basher will say "You see I told you". The majority of hockey fans are just happy to have the NHL back. And they just want to talk hockey, we had enough time to talk about that side of the game during the lockout now it is time to move on.

The lockout was nerver about ticket prices it was about the NHL as a league stoping being in the red year after year. And don't forget that last season alot a NHL clubs lowered their ticket prices coming back from a one year stopage so I think this is why you see a lot clubs increasing their prices this season.
 

hockeytown9321

Registered User
Jun 18, 2004
2,358
0
That's just it. It is futile to be discussing something that is a fact and will not change. The NHL has a salary cap that is a fact.

Just like the last one, this CBA will eventually expire. These are ongoing issues.



The lockout was nerver about ticket prices it was about the NHL as a league stoping being in the red year after year.

Then why did Gary mention ticket prices as a major reason we needed a cap every chance he got? Was he just using it as a PR ploy? If so, why? Was the real goal not noble enough?
 

CrazyCanucks

Registered User
Jun 8, 2005
2,150
2
Just like the last one, this CBA will eventually expire. These are ongoing issues.





Then why did Gary mention ticket prices as a major reason we needed a cap every chance he got? Was he just using it as a PR ploy? If so, why? Was the real goal not noble enough?


Well obivously he lied. Look at the Canucks. They missed the playoffs, got rid of 2/3 of the team, changed coaches, etc and even rasied ticket prices and still they got thier best ever Season ticket renewal at 96%. ther is a waiting list of 2600 right now to get in. They will sell out every single game this year, and this after what happened last year.

Look at other markets that are strong. The demand is there to pay those high prices. If the market will bear it, people will pay good money for it. This was never about getting the owners to lower ticket prices, It was to control the payroll range from 25 million to 80 million that the owners tried to screw themselves. If the cap was really help lower ticket prices, why did Nasville raise ticket prices?

This lockout had nothing to do with lowering ticket prices, it was to stop the idiot owners from killing each other, and judging what happened this off season, the problems came back, over spending and crazy arbritation rewards.
 

hockeytown9321

Registered User
Jun 18, 2004
2,358
0
Well obivously he lied. Look at the Canucks. They missed the playoffs, got rid of 2/3 of the team, changed coaches, etc and even rasied ticket prices and still they got thier best ever Season ticket renewal at 96%. ther is a waiting list of 2600 right now to get in. They will sell out every single game this year, and this after what happened last year.

Look at other markets that are strong. The demand is there to pay those high prices. If the market will bear it, people will pay good money for it. This was never about getting the owners to lower ticket prices, It was to control the payroll range from 25 million to 80 million that the owners tried to screw themselves. If the cap was really help lower ticket prices, why did Nasville raise ticket prices?

This lockout had nothing to do with lowering ticket prices, it was to stop the idiot owners from killing each other, and judging what happened this off season, the problems came back, over spending and crazy arbritation rewards.

So if we all agree that ticket prices had\have nothing to do with player salary, why did Gary make such an issue about it during the lockout? And if he lied about that, doesn't it make anyone wonder what else he might've lied about?
 

Vic Rattlehead*

Guest
So if we all agree that ticket prices had\have nothing to do with player salary, why did Gary make such an issue about it during the lockout? And if he lied about that, doesn't it make anyone wonder what else he might've lied about?

Gary Bettman doesn't have control over ticket prices. Why not blame the owners, who Bettman was speaking for?

Also, raising ticket prices doesn't mean it's not affordable. Did you honestly think owners would NEVER raise ticket prices?
 

Sotnos

Registered User
Jul 8, 2002
10,885
1
Not here
www.boltprospects.com
Then why did Gary mention ticket prices as a major reason we needed a cap every chance he got?
When on earth did anyone ever say this was a "major" issue? Did Bettman even mention it more than once? Ticket prices go by supply and demand, and no one ever thought otherwise. How do you know they wouldn't have gone up MORE under a different system?

Fugu, you weren't here for the lockout I don't think. We've been hearing the same (baiting) song and dance every few weeks from this guy since it started. He's a Red Wings fan, it's pretty obvious what his beef is here. Can't blame people for jumping on him IMO.
 

Fugu

Guest
When on earth did anyone ever say this was a "major" issue? Did Bettman even mention it more than once? Ticket prices go by supply and demand, and no one ever thought otherwise. How do you know they wouldn't have gone up MORE under a different system?

Fugu, you weren't here for the lockout I don't think. We've been hearing the same (baiting) song and dance every few weeks from this guy since it started. He's a Red Wings fan, it's pretty obvious what his beef is here. Can't blame people for jumping on him IMO.


No, I lurked for a while starting about halfway through the lockout. The arguments from all sides were pretty biased- I mean you have to admit there were a lot of people who could not differentiate between the PR stance and swallowed one side's story or the other's... hook, line and sinker. You have to admit it is a bit damning when hockeytown can pull out a Bettman quote that "promises" a few things which have not held up. I'm a Wings fan too, but I do believe that once the original NHL owners approved the expansion plan and cashed the checks, they made a commitment to a 30 team NHL. I might not have made the same decision for all of them, but at this point in time contraction would hurt the league more than it would help. I remain somewhat dubious... but if expansion teams do fail in the future, it can't be said the league didn't try. If they succeed, I'd be pretty happy to admit my doubt was misplaced.
 

Pepper

Registered User
Aug 30, 2004
14,693
269
So if we all agree that ticket prices had\have nothing to do with player salary, why did Gary make such an issue about it during the lockout? And if he lied about that, doesn't it make anyone wonder what else he might've lied about?

Like I said earlier, the salary cap HAS some effect on ticket prices in certain markets.

In Dallas they can't make the team competitive by spending $65M per year anymore and Dallas hockey market is not Toronto, i.e. they won't pay ridiculous prices when their team is not doing well. So when the payroll goes down, the team competiviness goes down (at some point, maybe next season) and the demand for tickets decreases. That could lead to cheaper ticket prices in Dallas if the team's optimal revenuestream equation demands that.

Bettman's "more affordable" is both 1) highly relative and 2) doesn't mean all teams.
 

hockeytown9321

Registered User
Jun 18, 2004
2,358
0
When on earth did anyone ever say this was a "major" issue? Did Bettman even mention it more than once? Ticket prices go by supply and demand, and no one ever thought otherwise. How do you know they wouldn't have gone up MORE under a different system?

Go look at all the press conferences and chats and whatnot on the NHL.com CBA archive. It was a major tenant.

Fugu, you weren't here for the lockout I don't think. We've been hearing the same (baiting) song and dance every few weeks from this guy since it started. He's a Red Wings fan, it's pretty obvious what his beef is here. Can't blame people for jumping on him IMO.

I like the fact that my arguments are dismissed because of who I cheer for. Me being a Wings' fan automatically disqualifies me from having any legitimate arguments.

I'm baiting? because I want to have a legitimate conversation about these issues and not just beleive the PR that comes out of the league
 

Resolute

Registered User
Mar 4, 2005
4,125
0
AB
So if we all agree that ticket prices had\have nothing to do with player salary, why did Gary make such an issue about it during the lockout? And if he lied about that, doesn't it make anyone wonder what else he might've lied about?

How do you know he lied?

What is the trend with ticket prices today as opposed to the last CBA? If prices, on average, rise at a slower rate in this CBA than they did in the last, would he not have been telling the truth?

The better question is to wonder why you are making such a big deal out of such a trivial point? The labour war, and the need for a salary cap went well beyond the simplistic demands of dissillusioned fans of large spending teams.

The NHL needed salary control if it was to thrive. Ranting and whining about ticket prices does not change this fact.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad