Confirmed Trade: [MTL/ARI] Christian Dvorak for 2022 1st round pick and 2024 2nd round pick [Part II]

[Edgy]

So in essence, Montreal traded Kotkaniemi + 2nd for Dvorak + 3rd?

If my understanding is correct, that’s a huge win for Montreal since the difference from a 3rd and a 2nd is quite small, whereas Dvorak is cheaper and much better than Kotkaniemi.

That largely depends on what pick Arizona ends up getting. If they get 11-15 range and we get mid-late twenties, it's a slight overpayment from the Habs. But seeing how were between a rock and a hard place, thanks to the OS, I would have expected a greater overpayment, so it's not all bad.

Also Dvorak is much better now, whether KK lives up to his potential or not will be another determining factor in a few years. But given that Carolina is opting to play him on the wing next year, it might not bode well for his development. We've seen it happen, we have experience in playing centers on the wing and wingers at center for "development" purposes.

 

[Peasy]

adding a player like Dvorak for futures is a win-now move so the only way this trade is a good idea is if you make the playoffs. Being a bottom 10 team won't be consolation.

Also, the Habs are operating under the idea that being a contender is overrated, and I don't blame them. I could see the win against the Leafs as being a bit on the Leafs, or on injury luck. The win against Vegas was the shocking one. They proved that you can have players that elevate in the playoffs.

You can criticize Bergevin for all his past moves and decisions with the team, but with this roster, you may as well go for it again. Adding Dvorak was the right move, in context of adding Savard and Hoffman especially. The Atlantic is weak enough to go for it.

Come again?

 

[Mr Positive]

Come again?

the 4th spot is up for grabs.

 

[ole ole]

Carolina OS's KK and the the board go's on laughing.
Dvorak's name is mentioned as a possible replacement and the board goes on about how much of an overpayment it will take to get Dvorak because
1st-Dvorak is better-A good 2nd line C
2nd-Dvorak's contract is way better.
3rd It will take a huge overpayment to get Dvorak At least a 1st and Romanov.

Habs end up getting Dvorak and now
1st -Dvorak is a bum not even a good 3rd line C
2ND- Now a top 10 protected 1st and a 2nd is a huge overpayment. Ya the 2nd is worth more than Romanov now.

Fans are now bitter that MB pulled it off.
Never change HF.

 

[Souker]

Chances are good that if one of Habs or Carolina pick is between 10 to 16th (and the other bottom tier), the player's gonna be better than Dvorak, who's an ok 35-45 pts 2-way center.

Nope. If you could guarantee this sort of thing, I know 32 teams that would love to hire you.
Any team in that range would be THRILLED to draft a sure equivalent of Dvorak even in the deepest of drafts.
I would take a sure young established #2 C ANYDAY over lets say a #10 overall lottery ticket.
Would you rather a million dollars or a 60% chance at 1.5 million?

Edit: Go look at any drafts you consider “deep” and you’ll see that there are a lot of players in that range that everyone called a steal at the time and ended up being busts. In a vacuum, Dvorak > Non Top 10 protected pick and any Gms would agree - but the reality is that there is a cap and each team have their own unique circumstances.

 

[samsagat]

adding a player like Dvorak for futures is a win-now move so the only way this trade is a good idea is if you make the playoffs. Being a bottom 10 team won't be consolation.

Also, the Habs are operating under the idea that being a contender is overrated, and I don't blame them. I could see the win against the Leafs as being a bit on the Leafs, or on injury luck. The win against Vegas was the shocking one. They proved that you can have players that elevate in the playoffs.

You can criticize Bergevin for all his past moves and decisions with the team, but with this roster, you may as well go for it again. Adding Dvorak was the right move, in context of adding Savard and Hoffman especially. The Atlantic is weak enough to go for it.

The problem with MB is his global vision, he has none and has no sense of timing.

He probably had the best team since the departure of Roy, back in 1995, in the middle of the 2010.

Instead of trading his first rd picks and some to go all-in, try to win it all, he sat on his hands in a in between strategy of not trying too hard and build trough draft and development at the same time.

But his 1st picks were all busts and they never won anything but a semi-final presence.

Fast forward to now, his team wouldn't have made the playoffs 5 out of the last 6 years if it wasn't for Covid.

Habs made a Cinderella run to the final but at the end of the day, it was just that, a Cinderella run.
Just like the one Calgary had in 2004, Oilers in 2006 and Dallas last year.

Dallas didn't make the playoffs this year and both Calgary and Oilers had to go trough a rebuild shortly after their runs.

So personally I don't put up too much emphasis on this Habs run.

It's not a reliable level gauge of the teams strength or MB managing abilities to build a real winner.

Making everything possible to be as much competitive as possible short terms has been Habs recipe for some times now. For about 20 years.
Only to be a constant middle of the pack team most of the time.

Repeating the same recipe, expecting different results, going around in circles in the process.


And Chicago, Pittsburgh, L-A, TB, etc.. don't agree that building a constant contender to win it all is overated.

Look at the teams that has win the cup for the last 20 years or so, they were mostly legitimate contenders and were for some times.

Ironically, now that MB doesn't have a team to do so, he trades his 1st picks for short terms/win now, in a draft that's supposed to be strong, held in Mtl...

 

[Souker]

That largely depends on what pick Arizona ends up getting. If they get 11-15 range and we get mid-late twenties, it's a slight overpayment from the Habs. But seeing how were between a rock and a hard place, thanks to the OS, I would have expected a greater overpayment, so it's not all bad.

Also Dvorak is much better now, whether KK lives up to his potential or not will be another determining factor in a few years. But given that Carolina is opting to play him on the wing next year, it might not bode well for his development. We've seen it happen, we have experience in playing centers on the wing and wingers at center for "development" purposes.

Again, like I said in my last post, it’s not an overpayment at all. Only if somehow we end up giving a top 10 pick to Phoenix that we can start calling this an overpayment.
Middle range 1st round pick (essentially a lottery ticket) for a young established and cost controlled 2 way #2C ? Lol I’d make that trade any day of the week with my eyes closed no matter who they end up drafting. The value we get is worth any chance we giving them. Go read the Yotes boards, their fans are extremely disappointed by their GM to make this trade and rightfully so.
Habs made a great deal - not even a debate. The negative noise is from : a) fans who don’t know the player, b) fans who don’t understand market values, and/or 3) fans who plain hate on MB/Habs no matter what they do lol

 

[SlafCaufield]

Carolina OS's KK and the the board go's on laughing.
Dvorak's name is mentioned as a possible replacement and the board goes on about how much of an overpayment it will take to get Dvorak because
1st-Dvorak is better-A good 2nd line C
2nd-Dvorak's contract is way better.
3rd It will take a huge overpayment to get Dvorak At least a 1st and Romanov.

Habs end up getting Dvorak and now
1st -Dvorak is a bum not even a good 3rd line C
2ND- Now a top 10 protected 1st and a 2nd is a huge overpayment. Ya the 2nd is worth more than Romanov now.

Fans are now bitter that MB pulled it off.
Never change HF.

hahaha yes lets goooo

Everyone laughed when KK got the offersheet but now we have an even better player

 

[Souker]

adding a player like Dvorak for futures is a win-now move so the only way this trade is a good idea is if you make the playoffs. Being a bottom 10 team won't be consolation.

Also, the Habs are operating under the idea that being a contender is overrated, and I don't blame them. I could see the win against the Leafs as being a bit on the Leafs, or on injury luck. The win against Vegas was the shocking one. They proved that you can have players that elevate in the playoffs.

You can criticize Bergevin for all his past moves and decisions with the team, but with this roster, you may as well go for it again. Adding Dvorak was the right move, in context of adding Savard and Hoffman especially. The Atlantic is weak enough to go for it.

What? The Atlantic is the STRONGEST division hands down lol
Say what you want but you have both Stanley cup finalists (including the favourites for 2021-22), 3 contending teams in Boston, Florida and Toronto and then you have 3 teams that frankly all have the potential to surprise Ottawa (which I think is an up and coming team), Detroit (who made some nice adjustments this offseason) and Buffalo (every year is a disaster but on paper, they could flip a switch one of these days with some solid moves and get on the right track).

 

[Makaveli]

Solid move by Montreal, turned a shitty situation into a positive.

 

[smack66]

Carolina OS's KK and the the board go's on laughing.
Dvorak's name is mentioned as a possible replacement and the board goes on about how much of an overpayment it will take to get Dvorak because
1st-Dvorak is better-A good 2nd line C
2nd-Dvorak's contract is way better.
3rd It will take a huge overpayment to get Dvorak At least a 1st and Romanov.

Habs end up getting Dvorak and now
1st -Dvorak is a bum not even a good 3rd line C
2ND- Now a top 10 protected 1st and a 2nd is a huge overpayment. Ya the 2nd is worth more than Romanov now.

Fans are now bitter that MB pulled it off.
Never change HF.

I cant believe Habs fans are still supportive of Bergevin. he started this whole mess and I'm not sure he strengthened the team from last years squad, yet some are heaping praise on how he handled this mess. very strange

 

[SlafCaufield]

I cant believe Habs fans are still supportive of Bergevin. he started this whole mess and I'm not sure he strengthened the team from last years squad, yet some are heaping praise on how he handled this mess. very strange

how has he not improved the team??

 

[smack66]

how has he not improved the team??

team is weaker up the middle then they were last year. Defence has gotten a little thinner. he has somewhat saved face by signing Dvorak but costly price. all this mess is on him and his ego

 

[SlafCaufield]

team is weaker up the middle then they were last year. Defence has gotten a little thinner. he has somewhat saved face by signing Dvorak but costly price. all this mess is on him and his ego

Savard replaces Weber (improvement due to weber injuried)
Hoffman replaces Perry (big improvement,, basically adding another Toffoli)
Dvorak replaces Danault (2C replaced by a 1C)
Full year of Caufield replaces Koko

 

[therealkoho]

It's supposed to be a strong draft, too. The Habs really need to make the playoffs or finish in the bottom 10. If they just fall short it's going to hurt.

watch them go 1st round and out

 

[Cyrrus147]

I cant believe Habs fans are still supportive of Bergevin. he started this whole mess and I'm not sure he strengthened the team from last years squad, yet some are heaping praise on how he handled this mess. very strange

I'm following the Habs since 2004 and I honestly think Bergevin is a good GM. He's not the best GM and he s not perfect, but we had worse in Montreal. I would be happy if he signs a 3 years extension.

 

[smack66]

Savard replaces Weber (improvement due to weber injuried)
Hoffman replaces Perry (big improvement,, basically adding another Toffoli)
Dvorak replaces Danault (2C replaced by a 1C)
Full year of Caufield replaces Koko

I guess we will wait and see. to me it's at best a push and he lost KK because of his own doing. his ego was all over the stupid offer sheet to Aho that started this.

 

[joebiden]

dvorak is better than danault...a broom stick is better than kotkaniemi...habs have improved at center. well done bargainbin.

 

[domiwroze]

Carolina OS's KK and the the board go's on laughing.
Dvorak's name is mentioned as a possible replacement and the board goes on about how much of an overpayment it will take to get Dvorak because
1st-Dvorak is better-A good 2nd line C
2nd-Dvorak's contract is way better.
3rd It will take a huge overpayment to get Dvorak At least a 1st and Romanov.

Habs end up getting Dvorak and now
1st -Dvorak is a bum not even a good 3rd line C
2ND- Now a top 10 protected 1st and a 2nd is a huge overpayment. Ya the 2nd is worth more than Romanov now.

Fans are now bitter that MB pulled it off.
Never change HF.

You also forgot that everyone was saying that KK is a bust and a 3rd C at best but now that he's with Carolina he's already top 6 C confirmed and can only get better from there.

Classic HF

 

[glenbuis]

The problem with MB is his global vision, he has none and has no sense of timing.

He probably had the best team since the departure of Roy, back in 1995, in the middle of the 2010.

Instead of trading his first rd picks and some to go all-in, try to win it all, he sat on his hands in a in between strategy of not trying too hard and build trough draft and development at the same time.

But his 1st picks were all busts and they never won anything but a semi-final presence.

Fast forward to now, his team wouldn't have made the playoffs 5 out of the last 6 years if it wasn't for Covid.

Habs made a Cinderella run to the final but at the end of the day, it was just that, a Cinderella run.
Just like the one Calgary had in 2004, Oilers in 2006 and Dallas last year.

Dallas didn't make the playoffs this year and both Calgary and Oilers had to go trough a rebuild shortly after their runs.

So personally I don't put up too much emphasis on this Habs run.

It's not a reliable level gauge of the teams strength or MB managing abilities to build a real winner.

Making everything possible to be as much competitive as possible short terms has been Habs recipe for some times now. For about 20 years.
Only to be a constant middle of the pack team most of the time.

Repeating the same recipe, expecting different results, going around in circles in the process.


And Chicago, Pittsburgh, L-A, TB, etc.. don't agree that building a constant contender to win it all is overated.

Look at the teams that has win the cup for the last 20 years or so, they were mostly legitimate contenders and were for some times.

Ironically, now that MB doesn't have a team to do so, he trades his 1st picks for short terms/win now, in a draft that's supposed to be strong, held in Mtl...

he is still gonna have a first round pick . lottery protected at that . he only used the extra first that he got from kk to replace a center .

 

[samsagat]

Nope. If you could guarantee this sort of thing, I know 32 teams that would love to hire you.
Any team in that range would be THRILLED to draft a sure equivalent of Dvorak even in the deepest of drafts.
I would take a sure young established #2 C ANYDAY over lets say a #10 overall lottery ticket.
Would you rather a million dollars or a 60% chance at 1.5 million?

Edit: Go look at any drafts you consider “deep” and you’ll see that there are a lot of players in that range that everyone called a steal at the time and ended up being busts. In a vacuum, Dvorak > Non Top 10 protected pick and any Gms would agree - but the reality is that there is a cap and each team have their own unique circumstances.

Oh yeah sure, you could be right.

In fact you'd probably be right if Mtl sticks with Timmins

But if we take as a gouge the 2003 draft, maybe the strongest in the last 30 years or so, there was still franchise players available at the 11 to 15th position.

It's always a coin toss, but less based on chance when you have a performing amateur scouting system...

And I must admit, Mtl's amateur scouting (and development) system, as of now, is really not performing...

But, at 25 yo, I don't see Dvorak as a dominant force. Finding a superior player at this range is far from unlikely.

At the end of the day, it's all about your evaluation of Habs and what they should do as of now

With the deep prospect pool habs already have, but no real absolute blue chips, the strength of the team (that I considered weak before Dvorak, now they're low/middle of the pack), MB apparently considering leaving, Price getting closer to LTIR by the day, I personally would have let the team slip for 1-2 years.

Taking advantage of the next two supposedly strong drafts, drafting high to build a real contender.

The timing was good

I think it could have been a short process.

Putting an end to this middle of the pack recipe, patching because we're always trying to win as much as possible as fast as possible.. but fall short but a few Cinderella runs here and there .

 

[rt]

The main behavior I’ve seen that’s demonstrated “classic HF” is the amount of people claiming how everyone else is being unreasonable. By my count two dudes have called Dvorak a 1C. And suddenly everyone is sneering at the Habs fan base for homerism.

Meanwhile, Habs fans are now acting like everyone said Kotkaniemi was waiver fodder and is now an all-star. There’s no basis for it. Nobody is saying that.

Then there’s people pretending that Arizona wanted an Eichel return for Dvorak when most of us were hoping for Guhle or a 1st and Primeau or a 2nd. It’s not like Guhle who was picked in the exact range the MTL 1st will be is worth tons more. It’s a fine and fair trade. No need for all the dramatic hyperbole.

 

[ismelofhockey]

Savard replaces Weber (improvement due to weber injuried)
Hoffman replaces Perry (big improvement,, basically adding another Toffoli)
Dvorak replaces Danault (2C replaced by a 1C)
Full year of Caufield replaces Koko

Perreault replaces Perry. Hoffman replaces Tatar. Dvorak is just not a 1C.

 

[SlafCaufield]

Perreault replaces Perry. Hoffman replaces Tatar. Dvorak is just not a 1C.

Perrault also has more offense to bring then Perry does..

 

[kife]

Savard replaces Weber (improvement due to weber injuried)
Hoffman replaces Perry (big improvement,, basically adding another Toffoli)
Dvorak replaces Danault (2C replaced by a 1C)
Full year of Caufield replaces Koko

There is no possible world in which Dvorak is a 1c, especially at this point in time.
Hoffman may put up reasonably good stats, but is not necessarily a gamer and is widely regarded as selfish - there is a reason he's not been able to stick with a single team for very long. One of the reasons Montreal got as far as they did in the playoffs, aside from some luck, was Perry and his leadership and other intangibles, he also still plays a relatively well rounded game.
I like Caufield and think he will be a good, steadily improving player.
I think you'll be disappointed in Savard.