Speculation: Most Underrated Assets

[Richard88]

Barrie. Most leafs fans say he’s not an NHL player but I think he’d make a great 7th d

Lol, the fume from Leafs fans is going to be even greater (if that's even possible) when Barrie signs somewhere else and gets back to being a stellar 55-60 point OFD.

It would be especially amusing if he resigns back in Colorado

Girard -- Makar
Graves -- Barrie
Byram -- Johnson
Cole

 

[Empoleon8771]

I’m only going to reply to 1.

Brayden Holtby is available is the antithesis of Anderson in the Post-Season and is available for a contract alone. He’s also very clearly a Starter in this League. The availability of guys like that makes Anderson’s value in trade much more fluid and likely not very high.

Yeah, I forgot Holtby, he's also available and he's definitely a starter.

But I'll reiterate my point, the bolded isn't based on anything. You're citing something along the lines of "supply and demand" to say Andersen's value isn't that high, but that has never shown to be true. There are no examples of goalies bringing back returns that people in here throw out due to a "saturated market", it's just not based on anything.

 

[Leafs87]

Lol, the fume from Leafs fans is going to be even greater (if that's even possible) when Barrie signs somewhere else and gets back to being a stellar 55-60 point OFD.

It would be especially amusing if he resigns back in Colorado

Girard -- Makar
Graves -- Barrie
Byram -- Johnson
Cole

He’s the kind of guy who could put up 60 points and I still wouldn’t want him back because he’s such a liability. He was on pace for 46 with the leafs but his overall presence on the D was awful.

it was a bad trade from the beginning. My stance on that has never changed

 

[The don godfather]

Par lindholm plays his heart out and one of a hell of a penalty killer.

 

[Nickel eye Heel hers]

David Ayres.
Hands down. The guy deserves some respect.

 

[StephenPeat]

Yeah, I forgot Holtby, he's also available and he's definitely a starter.

But I'll reiterate my point, the bolded isn't based on anything. You're citing something along the lines of "supply and demand" to say Andersen's value isn't that high, but that has never shown to be true. There are no examples of goalies bringing back returns that people in here throw out due to a "saturated market", it's just not based on anything.

Roberto Luongo

 

[Empoleon8771]

Roberto Luongo

Luongo was traded for a crappy return because his contract sucked. Had nothing to do with a saturated market.

Luongo literally said that himself:

 

[Philadelphia Ducks]

Bracco from Toronto, you don't see many people talking about this young prospect.

 

[StephenPeat]

Luongo was traded for a crappy return because his contract sucked. Had nothing to do with a saturated market.

Luongo literally said that himself:

Plenty of Starters are traded for practically nothing and you can say it’s because of their contracts or what have you but the truth is the market plays a huge part. Teams are confident they can get good quality goaltending for free or close to it and they’re usually right.
Tomas Greiss
Ben Bishop
Mike Smith
These guys are available for free or a low trade return virtually every season and for many they’re perfectly capable of providing Starting goaltending for nearly any team in the League.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Plenty of Starters are traded for practically nothing and you can say it’s because of their contracts or what have you but the truth is the market plays a huge part. Teams are confident they can get good quality goaltending for free or close to it and they’re usually right.
Tomas Greiss
Ben Bishop
Mike Smith
These guys are available for free or a low trade return virtually every season and for many they’re perfectly capable of providing Starting goaltending for nearly any team in the League.

Okay, list these guys. Who are these guys, and what did they bring back? Greiss isn't a starter. Bishop was traded as a pending UFA, his rights had the value of a 4th. Mike Smith was traded for a conditional 2nd and a lesser prospect as a 35 year old average starter, that's basically the low end for starters.

Because I can list out every single starting goalie trade in the last decade, and your idea is a wrong one. Every single starting goalie trade in the last decade has ranged between a 2nd and lesser assets and a higher 1st. Hell, the Luongo trade probably fell in that range too, although it's tough to tell what kind of value Markstrom had at the time of the trade. Name a single example of a trade that fell below that.

 

[Junohockeyfan]

I just call it as I see it.

Lehkonen is a good player no doubt.

Fwiw, I've previously proposed a 3-way trade involving Lehkonen to Colorado which fans of all 3 teams generally seemed to be favourable to:

To NJ: Zadorov
To MTL: Butcher
To Col: Lehkonen + 3rd

Its palatable.

 

[StephenPeat]

Okay, list these guys. Who are these guys, and what did they bring back? Greiss isn't a starter. Bishop was traded as a pending UFA, his rights had the value of a 4th. Mike Smith was traded for a conditional 2nd and a lesser prospect as a 35 year old average starter, that's basically the low end for starters.

Because I can list out every single starting goalie trade in the last decade, and your idea is a wrong one. Every single starting goalie trade in the last decade has ranged between a 2nd and lesser assets and a higher 1st. Hell, the Luongo trade probably fell in that range too, although it's tough to tell what kind of value Markstrom had at the time of the trade. Name a single example of a trade that fell below that.

I consider a 2nd a mid-round pick because the Caps are usually in the POs and they usually have a pick late in the Round. Legitimate Starters Under-27 are rarely traded and when they are they DO tend to have decent value. Established Starters that are traded at 27+ are very rare and I don’t recall many offhand in the past 15 years but when they are traded a la Luongo the return is underwhelming.

I’m actually genuinely curious, how many trades for Starting Goalies with 50+ career starts who were under 27 have occurred in the last 15 years? I’m imagining that’s a very short list.

 

[Hockeyholic]

mitch marner

Yep. I realize he's not cheap. But that has essentially made him a boat anchpr in most peoples eyes. He's still a great player.

 

[MisterT]

I saw some carolina threads where they were offering zacha+ 3rd round pick or just a low 2nd for him. Lollll

Carolina is trading Devils players? Good for them.

 

[Beerfish]

Ryan Nugent Hopkins

 

[tsujimoto74]

1. Having a lot of bad options doesn't make the market "saturated". Let's use Andersen as an example. Andersen's value isn't hurt because you have the ability to sign a worse and older goalie, it's just not. There's a difference between a starting goalie and a 1B goalie. Andersen is a starter, the only starters available in free agency right now are Markstrom and Lehner (who I think re-signs in Vegas).
2. Just saying "goalies don't have much trade value" doesn't make it true. There is a very set price for starting goalies, it ranges between a 2nd and lesser assets and a mid to high 1st. People use the "goalies don't have high value" to argue that they have lower value than any other goalie trade, it's a meme at this point.

Point 1 was especially shown with the Allen trade. Jake Allen put up great numbers last year, but he's not a starting goalie. That's why he was traded for a 3rd despite having great numbers. I really think the extent of goaltending evaluation on this site is looking at their hockeyDB pages and making sweeping generalizations, because all teams realize that there is a difference between a starter and a 1B.

It's the difference between guys like Halak and Fleury. Halak and Fleury have almost identical stats dating back to Halak breaking into the NHL. The difference? Halak has played in more than 50 games 4 times in 14 seasons, while Fleury has played in that many games 10 times (would have been 11 this year if not for COVID) and 60 games 8 times. A 1B who puts up good numbers isn't as good as a starter who puts up the same numbers.

Bolded is making my point for me. How much would a league-wide top 30 center or defenseman cost in a trade? Yeah, a lot more than a top 30 goalie. There are so many goalies on the market now, too, which doesn't help any---it is absolutely a buyer's market. And then there's the expansion draft coming. Since each team only gets to protect 1 goalie, that probably puts a bit of a damper on the number of buyers.

 

[Richard88]

He’s the kind of guy who could put up 60 points and I still wouldn’t want him back because he’s such a liability. He was on pace for 46 with the leafs but his overall presence on the D was awful.

it was a bad trade from the beginning. My stance on that has never changed

Avs fans told TML nation about Barrie's poor defense last offseason, but that didn't stop the Norris parade from being scheduled

 

[Zahra Starker]

Carolina is trading Devils players? Good for them.

Lol devils sorry hahaha

 

[BLNY]

My smile.

 

[qqaz]

Avs fans told TML nation about Barrie's poor defense last offseason, but that didn't stop the Norris parade from being scheduled

You know, I've never seen or heard a Leafs fan mention the Norris in relation to Barrie. But I've seen and heard Avs fans claim that we did countless times.

 

[Boondock]

Yeah, I forgot Holtby, he's also available and he's definitely a starter.

But I'll reiterate my point, the bolded isn't based on anything. You're citing something along the lines of "supply and demand" to say Andersen's value isn't that high, but that has never shown to be true. There are no examples of goalies bringing back returns that people in here throw out due to a "saturated market", it's just not based on anything.

This year Lehner (a started by your own account went for a roster filler a 2nd and a B/C prospect, Bishop went to Dallas for a 4th, M. Smith got 2 roster fillers and a conditional 3rd. Jones and Schneider both got firsts but those trades look bad now, so if that’s the price, you stay away. Rants went with Stepan for a 1st and ADA, who wasn’t what he turned into in NY. Grubauer got a 2nd. Not sure what you see as good value for Andersen but goalies aren’t getting big returns.

 

[Bigshow747]

Joel Kiviranta

 

[mrinsane]

Phillip Danault some people undervalue him but good two-way center, can create offensive Selke material

 

[Leafs87]

Avs fans told TML nation about Barrie's poor defense last offseason, but that didn't stop the Norris parade from being scheduled

I was not one of those in cloud 9. I love Kadri

 

[Ghost of Ethan Hunt]

Tyler Bertuzzi. I see some HF posters still think he's a 3rd liner or 3rd/2nd tweener. He's now a 1st/2nd line F tweener with a unique skill set of: IQ, vision, grit, pest, mobile, net front/boardwork presence, defensively responsible, heart & soul character. Works his arse off every night. Has a knack for being in the right place @ the right time, scores "ugly"/blue collar goals + pretty plays. "Plays the game the right way", coaches, fans & teammates adore this guy, as they should. Both he & Mantha have elevated themselves over the last ~1.5 seasons. Expect 55-60+ points from both next season (what they paced for this season) based on 82gp.