Most of our defensemen have regressed

[zzoo]

Hi,

I've noticed one strange thing happening in the last decade with our defensemen: after good debut, most of them have regressed afterwards.

I remember Beaulieu showed good flashes when he started, then somehow he couldn't blossom. With Fleury, after some first games, I thought that he would have a good future. Same thing with Juulsen, but I understand his eye injury had a big say on his development. Maybe, without that injury, he would probably follow the same path as Beaulieu and Fleury. As for Mete, I really liked his debut. He skated fast, he created chances, I thought we were lucky to have him. Then he doesn't pan out at all.

Fast forward to now. Xhekaj looked quite good last season, this season I don't like him at all as he took too much penalties and not reliable at defence. There's a good reason that he was sent to Laval, and played little minutes now. Guhle is about the same; he was good last year and early this year, then he started to decline in the last few months. Guhle isn't as efficient as before. It's the same thing as Harris. I like him less and less.

We even notice the same thing with Struble. In the first few games, I was really impressed. And lately he starts to make some mistakes.

Why is that ? Why most of our defencemen haven't progressed ? Is it because coach play them in a favorable situation when they just start and the look good ? As they get mature, they start to play against better opponents, then the get worse ?


In the future, I promise to myself that I won't get excited if Hutson, Mailloux or Engstrom play very well in their first few games. I'll be more conservative and hold my judgment. Let's see if they can play as good in the next seasons.

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[Lafleurs Guy]

As they assume more responsibility, games get harder...

 

[McGees]

Almost all young players take a turn as the long NHL season grind hits them. The majority of them are still under 100 games into their career as well…will be ups and downs.

 

[Kudo Shinichi]

Sophomore slump

 

[malton]

Xhekaj by most metrics is having a better season this year than last.

 

[BozoTheClown]

Only Xhekaj and Harris have slightly regressed, but Strubble has stepped up.
Some of the forwards like Gallagher, Anderson and Harvey-Pinard have regressed.

 

[morhilane]

Why is that ? Why most of our defencemen haven't progressed ? Is it because coach play them in a favorable situation when they just start and the look good ? As they get mature, they start to play against better opponents, then the get worse ?

Mostly this. Young players start sheltered with easier minutes and coaches give them more responsibilities/harder minutes overtime. Some adapt, some struggle and some never really makes it.

That's how you end up with the pair tier at defense and if a D is a PP/offensive specialist because he can't play defense.

Saying that, based on advanced stats, this year Guhle is better than last year Guhle. And his perceive decline is mostly dude to getting harder and more minutes (he's being used a shutdown dmen this year along Savard).

 

[MXD]

This probably has more to do with initial excitement, low expectations and sheltering of the said player.

It IS an issue that no one took the step up... But, frankly, it was also a skill issue. Those players mostly became what they were meant to become, except for the obvious Juulsen situation and, possibly, Victor Mete.

Xhekaj is probably doing a little better than he was last season if you completely disregard the adrenaline rush-fueled first few games.

 

[Captain Mountain]

Xhekaj by most metrics is having a better season this year than last.

Yeah, it feels more like people had unrealistic expectations for him, like a lot of the other young D.

 

[Saundies]

Sophomore slump is a real thing. Struble will probably take a step back next year, Guhle a step up. It happens. Guys come into the league and are usually just happy to be there, play their game, and not to try think too much. I think there is an element of overcoaching or trying to put square pegs into round holes with some guys as well.

Any star D we draft/develop we usually trade away anyway so I wouldn't read too much into it.

 

[Sorinth]

I think it's a case of people (Myself included) letting expectations play too big a role in our evaluations of players. So taking Ghule as an example, last year he was getting consistently outplayed most nights, but because he vastly exceed expectations we would simply dismiss/ignore the bad because hey he's a rookie playing as the teams #1, whereas this year expectations are that he's a future top pairing guy so getting outplayed most nights is less likely to be dismissed/ignored/chalked up to being a rookie.

Then on top of that playing D in the NHL generally requires experience, you need to learn your opponent's tendencies much more then a forward does, your much more vulnerable to the speed of the game as defensively you can't "slow the game down" like a forward can when they get the puck. It's also a position that's much less forgiving of mistakes which means that often young players will get burnt and then play it overly safe.

 

[Scintillating10]

Hi,

I've noticed one strange thing happening in the last decade with our defensemen: after good debut, most of them have regressed afterwards.

I remember Beaulieu showed good flashes when he started, then somehow he couldn't blossom. With Fleury, after some first games, I thought that he would have a good future. Same thing with Juulsen, but I understand his eye injury had a big say on his development. Maybe, without that injury, he would probably follow the same path as Beaulieu and Fleury. As for Mete, I really liked his debut. He skated fast, he created chances, I thought we were lucky to have him. Then he doesn't pan out at all.

Fast forward to now. Xhekaj looked quite good last season, this season I don't like him at all as he took too much penalties and not reliable at defence. There's a good reason that he was sent to Laval, and played little minutes now. Guhle is about the same; he was good last year and early this year, then he started to decline in the last few months. Guhle isn't as efficient as before. It's the same thing as Harris. I like him less and less.

We even notice the same thing with Struble. In the first few games, I was really impressed. And lately he starts to make some mistakes.

Why is that ? Why most of our defencemen haven't progressed ? Is it because coach play them in a favorable situation when they just start and the look good ? As they get mature, they start to play against better opponents, then the get worse ?


In the future, I promise to myself that I won't get excited if Hutson, Mailloux or Engstrom play very well in their first few games. I'll be more conservative and hold my judgment. Let's see if they can play as good in the next seasons.

Guhle only one I am convinced is top 4.

 

[admiralcadillac]

Hi,

I've noticed one strange thing happening in the last decade with our defensemen: after good debut, most of them have regressed afterwards.

I remember Beaulieu showed good flashes when he started, then somehow he couldn't blossom. With Fleury, after some first games, I thought that he would have a good future. Same thing with Juulsen, but I understand his eye injury had a big say on his development. Maybe, without that injury, he would probably follow the same path as Beaulieu and Fleury. As for Mete, I really liked his debut. He skated fast, he created chances, I thought we were lucky to have him. Then he doesn't pan out at all.

Fast forward to now. Xhekaj looked quite good last season, this season I don't like him at all as he took too much penalties and not reliable at defence. There's a good reason that he was sent to Laval, and played little minutes now. Guhle is about the same; he was good last year and early this year, then he started to decline in the last few months. Guhle isn't as efficient as before. It's the same thing as Harris. I like him less and less.

We even notice the same thing with Struble. In the first few games, I was really impressed. And lately he starts to make some mistakes.

Why is that ? Why most of our defencemen haven't progressed ? Is it because coach play them in a favorable situation when they just start and the look good ? As they get mature, they start to play against better opponents, then the get worse ?


In the future, I promise to myself that I won't get excited if Hutson, Mailloux or Engstrom play very well in their first few games. I'll be more conservative and hold my judgment. Let's see if they can play as good in the next seasons.

No, the team is just bad. We’re one of the teams with the most goals from the blueline.

 

[montreal]

Hi,

I've noticed one strange thing happening in the last decade with our defensemen: after good debut, most of them have regressed afterwards.

I remember Beaulieu showed good flashes when he started, then somehow he couldn't blossom. With Fleury, after some first games, I thought that he would have a good future. Same thing with Juulsen, but I understand his eye injury had a big say on his development. Maybe, without that injury, he would probably follow the same path as Beaulieu and Fleury. As for Mete, I really liked his debut. He skated fast, he created chances, I thought we were lucky to have him. Then he doesn't pan out at all.

Fast forward to now. Xhekaj looked quite good last season, this season I don't like him at all as he took too much penalties and not reliable at defence. There's a good reason that he was sent to Laval, and played little minutes now. Guhle is about the same; he was good last year and early this year, then he started to decline in the last few months. Guhle isn't as efficient as before. It's the same thing as Harris. I like him less and less.

We even notice the same thing with Struble. In the first few games, I was really impressed. And lately he starts to make some mistakes.

Why is that ? Why most of our defencemen haven't progressed ? Is it because coach play them in a favorable situation when they just start and the look good ? As they get mature, they start to play against better opponents, then the get worse ?


In the future, I promise to myself that I won't get excited if Hutson, Mailloux or Engstrom play very well in their first few games. I'll be more conservative and hold my judgment. Let's see if they can play as good in the next seasons.

teams that make wrong or bad choices too many times pay for it. Look at how many of those D were called up too soon at 18, 19, 20. Now some just weren't that good to begin with of course. Was never a big Fleury fan but thought with his size, mobility he would at least be a solid 6th or 7th type.

Beaulieu is one of the most interesting cases, from 2015-2017 in 138 games he put up 47 pts which is pretty decent production and then nothing, he just fell off a cliff after the Habs. Sort of reminds me of Barron in a way that you could see in the AHL management was in a tough spot with both as their offense is almost too good for the AHL but their defense and IQ are not NHL level (talking when they were at the same age).

Personally I don't like how they handled any of these guys. If you are making bad defensive mistakes, you don't call said 20 year old blueliner up to the NHL and HOPE he figures it out, that's just boneheaded to me. I'm all for blueliners spending a LOT of time in the AHL first until they show they have improved enough on their weaknesses.

I don't know Barron anywhere near as well as I do with Beaulieu back then so I don't know how they compare other then I like Barron's offensive game so much more and I hope he's much brighter then Beaulieu who I took a ton of shit early on when I started telling people he was getting way overrated and terrible in his own end. I know now people will laugh and say no way as everyone knew he stunk but if you go back to those early Hamilton threads it wasn't pretty, same for Tinordi who I felt was getting bad advice at the time and should have focused more on his overall game and less on fighting as he was just not very good at it.

I know that some don't place much value in coaching or development, which is just so nuts to me but I find it funny that since '07 2 of the best D we have drafted have been developed by other teams but yet some fans that can't see the forest through the trees just dismiss it.

Juulsen at the time I hated that they rushed him to the NHL because his defensive game looked polished but I felt he needed time in the AHL to work on his offensive game and work on his mobility. But the injuries really set him back so I'm just glad to see that he's been able to get back on track and set a career high in NHL games played this year. I know at the time of the Josh Brook injury there was talk it could have been career ending so it would have sucked to have lost both to career ending injuries.

 

[Team_Spirit]

Only looking at stats, a lot of guys up front are regressing as well.

Good news for contract negotiations I guess.

 

[calder candidate]

Hi,

I've noticed one strange thing happening in the last decade with our defensemen: after good debut, most of them have regressed afterwards.

I remember Beaulieu showed good flashes when he started, then somehow he couldn't blossom. With Fleury, after some first games, I thought that he would have a good future. Same thing with Juulsen, but I understand his eye injury had a big say on his development. Maybe, without that injury, he would probably follow the same path as Beaulieu and Fleury. As for Mete, I really liked his debut. He skated fast, he created chances, I thought we were lucky to have him. Then he doesn't pan out at all.

Fast forward to now. Xhekaj looked quite good last season, this season I don't like him at all as he took too much penalties and not reliable at defence. There's a good reason that he was sent to Laval, and played little minutes now. Guhle is about the same; he was good last year and early this year, then he started to decline in the last few months. Guhle isn't as efficient as before. It's the same thing as Harris. I like him less and less.

We even notice the same thing with Struble. In the first few games, I was really impressed. And lately he starts to make some mistakes.

Why is that ? Why most of our defencemen haven't progressed ? Is it because coach play them in a favorable situation when they just start and the look good ? As they get mature, they start to play against better opponents, then the get worse ?


In the future, I promise to myself that I won't get excited if Hutson, Mailloux or Engstrom play very well in their first few games. I'll be more conservative and hold my judgment. Let's see if they can play as good in the next seasons.

Same happen with most player all the time they have great first flashes evewn season and regress before going over the hump or stalling or busting...
Don't remeber when Beaulieu looked good.

Expectation are low, easier to be impress and ignore flaws.
progression isn't linear
Getting easie minute, small sample player can't keep it up over a career
Other team/player figure them out, know how to attack ou counter them
The pressure of the pro game suck the fun out of it, mental healt/state, off ice distractions, preperation/ recovery, injuries.

 

[dcyhabs]

The team was terrible last year, and they had no options. It was tough to dump on anyone and there was no one to bring in.

This year they are marginally competitive so it's easy to say guys are worse. There is more competition and only Guhle and maybe Struble/Xhekaj have a good chance of being top 4 long term. Reinbacher should be top 4, and one of their many other prospects should work out. A lot of the current guys will be traded or will be fighting for bottom pairing or seventh D jobs.

Same happen with most player all the time they have great first flashes evewn season and regress before going over the hump or stalling or busting...
Don't remeber when Beaulieu looked good.

Expectation are low, easier to be impress and ignore flaws.
progression isn't linear
Getting easie minute, small sample player can't keep it up over a career
Other team/player figure them out, know how to attack ou counter them
The pressure of the pro game suck the fun out of it, mental healt/state, off ice distractions, preperation/ recovery, injuries.

Beaulieu had some decent games, he could skate, he was more physical his first year or two, and he looked way better on lower pairings. He wasn't terrible but he needed a better attitude and more coaching if he was actually going to be good.

 

[Chili]

The Habs d in the 2021 playoff run:

Weber
Petry
Chiarot
Edmundson
Kulak
Romanov
Merrill
Gustafsson

Interesting that they are all long gone. Looking at that list, it took years for most of those guys to become NHL dmen, it's a long process. Even HOFer to be Shea Weber, played more AHL games then most of the Habs current young guys.

I remember Dion Phaneuf and Tyler Myers winning the Calder trophy and having mixed careers afterwards. Takes a lot of time and patience and some of the current guys will probably be ex-Habs in a few years. I do believe they need to keep some veteran d in the lineup to take pressure off the kids while they develop.

 

[McGees]

People associated Xhekaj face punching from last season for ‘better play’ just cause we haven’t seen him face punch as much this year. His actual hockey has been similar looking.

 

[calder candidate]

Beaulieu had some decent games, he could skate, he was more physical his first year or two, and he looked way better on lower pairings. He wasn't terrible but he needed a better attitude and more coaching if he was actually going to be good.

Even if he was a pretty explosive and fast going forward he wasn't a great 4 way skater, had trouble skating backward and pivoting, never had great positioning. He could have progress but so did everyone else... He might have had some decent game, pretty sure never progress as hope since he got drafted, It not like he was a sure fire 1st pairring D and fell off the map after all of a sudden, he started to fall behind D+1.

 

[Habs]

things will improve if they sit Harris

 

[BLONG7]

No, the team is just bad. We’re one of the teams with the most goals from the blueline.

Our Dmen are what, 2nd or 3rd for scoring goals in the league................they have not regressed.
Our forwards suck................and our play in our own end is some garbage man to man system that obviously doesn't work...............that's on the coaches, not the D.

 

[Rapala]

Hi,

I've noticed one strange thing happening in the last decade with our defensemen: after good debut, most of them have regressed afterwards.

I remember Beaulieu showed good flashes when he started, then somehow he couldn't blossom. With Fleury, after some first games, I thought that he would have a good future. Same thing with Juulsen, but I understand his eye injury had a big say on his development. Maybe, without that injury, he would probably follow the same path as Beaulieu and Fleury. As for Mete, I really liked his debut. He skated fast, he created chances, I thought we were lucky to have him. Then he doesn't pan out at all.

Fast forward to now. Xhekaj looked quite good last season, this season I don't like him at all as he took too much penalties and not reliable at defence. There's a good reason that he was sent to Laval, and played little minutes now. Guhle is about the same; he was good last year and early this year, then he started to decline in the last few months. Guhle isn't as efficient as before. It's the same thing as Harris. I like him less and less.

We even notice the same thing with Struble. In the first few games, I was really impressed. And lately he starts to make some mistakes.

Why is that ? Why most of our defencemen haven't progressed ? Is it because coach play them in a favorable situation when they just start and the look good ? As they get mature, they start to play against better opponents, then the get worse ?


In the future, I promise to myself that I won't get excited if Hutson, Mailloux or Engstrom play very well in their first few games. I'll be more conservative and hold my judgment. Let's see if they can play as good in the next seasons.

I wouldn't worry too much about our D up and until we actually have a solid forward group.
For me they still represent a position of strength and are far too young to render judgement on.
Besides Matheson and Savard they are all still in the process of learning how to manage an 82 game schedule.
People tend to forget they are still near the top when it comes to goal production.
As much as we want Kaiden Guhle to take over #1 for example how realistic is that as a sophmore playing RD?
The true test will come in the next couple of seasons when we are expected to turn the corner.

 

[1909]

I wouldn't worry too much about our D up and until we actually have a solid forward group.
For me they still represent a position of strength and are far too young to render judgement on.
Besides Matheson and Savard they are all still in the process of learning how to manage an 82 game schedule.
People tend to forget they are still near the top when it comes to goal production.
As much as we want Kaiden Guhle to take over #1 for example how realistic is that as a sophmore playing RD?
The true test will come in the next couple of seasons when we are expected to turn the corner.

They need to give time to Reinbacher, Mailloux and Hutson to get more experience at AHL level. It's important to keep both Matheson and Savard .

 

[JoelWarlord]

same for Tinordi who I felt was getting bad advice at the time and should have focused more on his overall game and less on fighting as he was just not very good at it.

I know that some don't place much value in coaching or development, which is just so nuts to me but I find it funny that since '07 2 of the best D we have drafted have been developed by other teams but yet some fans that can't see the forest through the trees just dismiss it.

Yeah this shit is infuriating to look back on. When you look at the early results that players like Tinordi, Beaulieu, McCarron, etc had in the AHL/NHL at 20 or 21 there's no reason those guys couldn't have become decent depth guys. I just don't understand how you draft McCarron in the 1st round, watch him put up 38P in 58 AHL games at 20 as a rookie and then try to turn him into Shawn Thornton. It's f***ing crazy. Same with Tinordi, he looked like a solid bottom pair guy with like solid #4 upside and they just tried to turn him into a goon.

That was the most baffling one b/c we had Hal Gill on the team during that era and he was an effective player with a similar frame without being a goon.