[MOD WARNING POST #598] Should Dave Tippett Be Fired Before Next Season?

[XX]

This new wave of talent is not being stymied by Tippett. He has been masterful, IMO, in protecting Domi, and then Dvorak, by limiting their time early and gradually increasing their time and responsibility. He was less protective of Chychrun and Crouse, as they had more complete (ie defensive) games at the get go.

I'm amazed at your ability to see things in hues I didn't know existed.

Domi has had a lot of the creativity choked out of his game and he clearly is not getting the right linemates to be successful. Dvorak was buried until trades forced Tippett's hand, he was more than ready earlier but couldn't buy icetime. Chychrun was outplaying OEL and then was inexplicably scratched and played a lot worse as a result. Crouse got garbage minutes with garbage players when he should have been a key player for a junior team.

You have to let your horses run, especially in their formative years, and Dave Tippett does the exact opposite of that. It's a miracle nobody has demanded a trade (that we know of) yet.

 

[rt]

I'm amazed at your ability to see things in hues I didn't know existed.

Domi has had a lot of the creativity choked out of his game and he clearly is not getting the right linemates to be successful. Dvorak was buried until trades forced Tippett's hand, he was more than ready earlier but couldn't buy icetime. Chychrun was outplaying OEL and then was inexplicably scratched and played a lot worse as a result. Crouse got garbage minutes with garbage players when he should have been a key player for a junior team.

You have to let your horses run, especially in their formative years, and Dave Tippett does the exact opposite of that. It's a miracle nobody has demanded a trade (that we know of) yet.

Agreed. We will fail with Tippett at the helm. We will fail miserably. The only question is how much damage he can do before he's taken out to pasture. Will he demolish the rebuild entirely before a stop is out to him? I'm hoping against hope there is another regime change this summer and he and his chronies are thrown out on the street. I'd say dragged through the street, but I'm not about grudges.

 

[_Del_]

Rieder suggested a trade and that he was being hurt through usage already. I wouldn't be surprised if Duke did as well leading to his demotion.

Don't worry though Tippett can't develop talent from pig #### or from Turris's and Eriksson's, but I'm sure a couple of guys like Domi and Rieder might survive despite him.

 

[Bonsai Tree]

I'm amazed at your ability to see things in hues I didn't know existed.

Domi has had a lot of the creativity choked out of his game and he clearly is not getting the right linemates to be successful. Dvorak was buried until trades forced Tippett's hand, he was more than ready earlier but couldn't buy icetime. Chychrun was outplaying OEL and then was inexplicably scratched and played a lot worse as a result. Crouse got garbage minutes with garbage players when he should have been a key player for a junior team.

You have to let your horses run, especially in their formative years, and Dave Tippett does the exact opposite of that. It's a miracle nobody has demanded a trade (that we know of) yet.

Who would you suggest for Domi? Gino? We didn't have anybody who is the "right fit" for Domi. As to your suggestion to "let the horses run", that's what TGO did with Boedker and Turris, and we saw how that turned out. Either here or in the A kids need to be brought along.

Chychrun, iirc, was scratched because he started to regress a bit and needed to straighten out the cerebral side of his game. He was also tiring out a bit I think.

As for Crouse, we'll just have to agree to disagree. He's a ham handed big, fast strong 3rd liner with little upside. He is what he is, and for him to score 20 the nets would have to double in size.

 

[cobra427]

Well, we've got a big problem because as you point out we need to develop talent, can't afford to add it, and we have a coach who has a "proven" track record of terrible development.

And the best defense for the status quo is that it doesn't matter anyway because we have other problems.

Nihilists! **** me. I mean, say what you want about the tenets of trying to improve by coach firing, Dude, at least it's an ethos.

Name all the young players that left AZ under Tip and "developed" better under a different coach, besides Turris (he wanted out)?

Verby is the only guy I can think of, and he is a vet, and for only one year between the twins, that upped his play on another team.

Tip not being able to develop players is a myth.

 

[ClassLessCoyote]

The system will change as the talent level increases.

The system will change when Dino Dave is replaced.

We are predicted to finish in the bottom 5 every year at the start of the season by every online or other publications. That prediction is based on our lack of NHL talent on the ice, not coaching. Look at our NHL roster right now, top 6 forwards and top 4D.

1RW-1C-1LW
1RW-2C-Domi

OEL-1RHD
Gogo-2RHD

All we need is 7 guys to step up Any questions?

Coyotes:

Ownership: I am glad the team is still here, other than that its been bad.
GM: Too early to tell
Roster: Not enough NHL talent to compete for a playoff spot
Money: We don't haver any (see roster)
Coach: Better and more proven than the ownership/GM/Roster/Money

At least you went from lack of talent to realizing that we have talent.

 

[_Del_]

Name all the young players that left AZ under Tip and "developed" better under a different coach, besides Turris (he wanted out)?

Tip not being able to develop players is a myth.

He was forced to play Eriksson, called Turris a bottom six guy when he was obviously ready as a top six guy the second he was traded. Passed on Tyler Johnson.

Aside from that, it's like saying it's a myth that I'm a bad gardener because even though I never watered or fertilized the plants name one example of where another gardener was able to nurse those dead or dying plants back to life.

 

[BUX7PHX]

He was forced to play Eriksson, called Turris a bottom six guy when he was obviously ready as a top six guy the second he was traded. Passed on Tyler Johnson.

Aside from that, it's like saying it's a myth that I'm a bad gardener because even though I never watered or fertilized the plants name one example of where another gardener was able to nurse those dead or dying plants back to life.

You'd be a bad gardener b/c you never watered or fertilized the plants.

The same way that DT would be a bad coach if he never taught things. Clearly he has, and the point that was being made is that for all of the "non-teaching" and "non-coaching" that is done, players tend to have some pretty decent years under him. This is with players that would be considered "less talented" than other teams, so somehow, whether system or proper coaching and proper execution, the team managed.

For Turris, I honestly think that him being sent down in 2009-10 season started his whiny *****-fest. And as has been said before, people complain about how Tippett wound up keeping a country club like atmosphere, but if that were the case, Turris would have been on the NHL roster the entire year.

 

[_Del_]

Or maybe you're a bad gardener if you treat all the plants the same, or expect them to bloom at the same time. That barrel cactus in the front yard there might do fine in full sun and very little care, but other plants need more care to bear fruit.
There was a barrel cactus that survived, but not thrived, and no one else could resuscitate the others, so he's obviously a great gardener is the logic being applied here. One plant survived and took root, but only after a GM ordered him to water and nurture it.

No wonder there's a "myth" about him being a bad gardener.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

Ownership: I am glad the team is still here, other than that its been bad.
GM: Too early to tell
Roster: Not enough NHL talent to compete for a playoff spot
Money: We don't haver any (see roster)
Coach: Better and more proven than the ownership/GM/Roster/Money

Here are mine:

Ownership: Incompetent shysters who play us - and want to play other Arizona folks - for rubes. Their sole redeeming quality is that they have been the face of an entity that has staved off a relocation that seems more inevitable every year.

Roster: A lot of potential that could use some stability to mature into NHL talent, but aren't going to get any. Even if the organization was at all stable, the coaching staff in their drive to win keep shuffling them as if they were a deck of cards. The supporting players are all guys who would be AHL fodder in any other organization, and a starting goalie whose penchant for flashy saves and "in it to win it attitude" can't cover up his fundamental mediocrity.

GM: A smart, smart kid who is basically playing a real-life game of EHM 07. Has the capability to make some out-of-the-box moves but I have yet to see whether he will mature into someone who can manage a roster without stepping on some toes (see: Shane Doan).

Money: We have no real money. We just look like we do on the cap figuring thanks to some "new math" that has the rest of the hockey world mad at us (as if they ever weren't).

Coach: Tippett is not any worse or better than the vast majority of NHL-level coaches. I think collectively NHL coaches are hampered by having done things the way they played, or doing things because it fits the conventional wisdom. We don't see anything tactically brilliant or intriguing or novel very often, but if we do it's not from Tippett. The guy grinds out wins because that's what he did as a player. His teams grind out wins when they have the right pH balance in the roster. Which, I will say, we certainly don't have right now. The dynamics of a pro locker room are such that the only voices that continue to carry weight with the players over a long stretch of time are the ones belonging to people who bring relentless success. Tippett has not done this for the better part of a decade. That more than anything is why I would like to see a new face on the bench. But he's not the true scapegoat for this organization by a long shot.

 

[cobra427]

He was forced to play Eriksson, called Turris a bottom six guy when he was obviously ready as a top six guy the second he was traded. Passed on Tyler Johnson.

Aside from that, it's like saying it's a myth that I'm a bad gardener because even though I never watered or fertilized the plants name one example of where another gardener was able to nurse those dead or dying plants back to life.

Thanks for proving my points with zero examples

 

[rt]

Feckless has the reasonable take on the obvious decision; fire these damn coaches. My take is much less reasonable. Same plainly obvious conclusion, however. Anybody who can't reach this clear cut conclusion needs to walk and not run(can't be too careful) to their nearest diagnostic imaging center to have a quick peak at the old noggin. I only say this because I care.

 

[_Del_]

No, rt. These fans are nihilists. There's nothing to be afraid of.

 

[Summer Rose]

Here are mine:

Ownership: Incompetent shysters who play us - and want to play other Arizona folks - for rubes. Their sole redeeming quality is that they have been the face of an entity that has staved off a relocation that seems more inevitable every year.

Roster: A lot of potential that could use some stability to mature into NHL talent, but aren't going to get any. Even if the organization was at all stable, the coaching staff in their drive to win keep shuffling them as if they were a deck of cards. The supporting players are all guys who would be AHL fodder in any other organization, and a starting goalie whose penchant for flashy saves and "in it to win it attitude" can't cover up his fundamental mediocrity.

GM: A smart, smart kid who is basically playing a real-life game of EHM 07. Has the capability to make some out-of-the-box moves but I have yet to see whether he will mature into someone who can manage a roster without stepping on some toes (see: Shane Doan).

Money: We have no real money. We just look like we do on the cap figuring thanks to some "new math" that has the rest of the hockey world mad at us (as if they ever weren't).

Coach: Tippett is not any worse or better than the vast majority of NHL-level coaches. I think collectively NHL coaches are hampered by having done things the way they played, or doing things because it fits the conventional wisdom. We don't see anything tactically brilliant or intriguing or novel very often, but if we do it's not from Tippett. The guy grinds out wins because that's what he did as a player. His teams grind out wins when they have the right pH balance in the roster. Which, I will say, we certainly don't have right now. The dynamics of a pro locker room are such that the only voices that continue to carry weight with the players over a long stretch of time are the ones belonging to people who bring relentless success. Tippett has not done this for the better part of a decade. That more than anything is why I would like to see a new face on the bench. But he's not the true scapegoat for this organization by a long shot.

Your take on Tippett is pretty much the perfect way to put the same opinion that I hold. I often let other people do the speaking for me if they can put it better than I ever could. Though, in most cases, the person doing so is a professional writer; for example I like to use direct quotes and citations by Douglas Adams to express my views (he can put them to words better than I can, which is understandable since he was a professional writer and I'm not).

Are you a professional writer?

 

[The Feckless Puck]

Are you a professional writer?

Full disclosure: yes. But I try not to spread it around.

(Also: 42)

 

[rt]

Chayka stepped on Doan's toes? Or the concern is that he will if Doan wants to come back and Chayka doesn't want him back?

 

[Matias Maccete]

No, rt. These fans are nihilists. There's nothing to be afraid of.

They're not rug pissers are they?

 

[Ebb]

Chayka stepped on Doan's toes? Or the concern is that he will if Doan wants to come back and Chayka doesn't want him back?

Well, even Doan expressed that he was frustrated with last seasons contract negotiation, so I guess that could be considered toe-stepping on Chayka's part (by not simply settling for whatever Doan started with).

I truly hope that Doan decides to retire. Didn't we add some wacky clauses into his contract that continues to pay him for 2-5 seasons...

Signing Bonus after interest is applied = $1,500,000 broken down in 6 payments of $250,000 starting in 2017 & ending in 2022. Games Played Bonus after interest is applied = $1,000,000 broken down in 2 payments of $500,000 starting in 2018 & again in 2019.

This sure seems like a "transitional retirement" plan to me.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

Chayka stepped on Doan's toes? Or the concern is that he will if Doan wants to come back and Chayka doesn't want him back?

The contract negotiations with Doan - and what he eventually ended up with - were basically taking all the goodwill he's built with the franchise and using them against him. He was definitively not happy with the process or what he settled for, and said so on a couple of occasions this past season.

Now, if you remove the human element, Doan's contract makes a lot of sense for the franchise, particularly for a declining asset. But you can only do that in video games, not with flesh and blood.

 

[Bonsai Tree]

The contract negotiations with Doan - and what he eventually ended up with - were basically taking all the goodwill he's built with the franchise and using them against him. He was definitively not happy with the process or what he settled for, and said so on a couple of occasions this past season.

Now, if you remove the human element, Doan's contract makes a lot of sense for the franchise, particularly for a declining asset. But you can only do that in video games, not with flesh and blood.

Babe Ruth finished his career with the Boston Braves. Willy Mays finished his career with the New York Mets. Hank Aaron finished his career with the Milwaukee Brewers.

Certainly if Doan isn't content at the end of his career he can play with another team.

 

[_Del_]

They're not rug pissers are they?

That rug really tied the room together, did it not?

 

[The Feckless Puck]

Babe Ruth finished his career with the Boston Braves. Willy Mays finished his career with the New York Mets. Hank Aaron finished his career with the Milwaukee Brewers.

Certainly if Doan isn't content at the end of his career he can play with another team.

Fine. That doesn't take away from the fact that Chayka has a lot of learning to do about how to treat human beings.

 

[Jakey53]

The contract negotiations with Doan - and what he eventually ended up with - were basically taking all the goodwill he's built with the franchise and using them against him. He was definitively not happy with the process or what he settled for, and said so on a couple of occasions this past season.

Now, if you remove the human element, Doan's contract makes a lot of sense for the franchise, particularly for a declining asset. But you can only do that in video games, not with flesh and blood.

Totally false. Listen to Doan's July 12/16 presser when he signed his deal. He was extremely happy and explained why it took as long as it did, and what he ended up with was almost what he got on his previous contract, and is not as good a player as he was when he signed his last contract. Doan has said nothing but good things about the Coyotes, DT, management etc. I have not heard any comments by Doan to the contrary.

 

[Jakey53]

Fine. That doesn't take away from the fact that Chayka has a lot of learning to do about how to treat human beings.

A fact? How do you know how Chayka treats humans? You have no idea what learning Chayka needs.

 

[Jakey53]

Well, even Doan expressed that he was frustrated with last seasons contract negotiation, so I guess that could be considered toe-stepping on Chayka's part (by not simply settling for whatever Doan started with).

I truly hope that Doan decides to retire. Didn't we add some wacky clauses into his contract that continues to pay him for 2-5 seasons...



This sure seems like a "transitional retirement" plan to me.

Where did Doan express frustration about his contract?