Miracle on Ice or 1996: which was the USA's most significant victory?

PrimumHockeyist

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As much as I enjoyed the USA's victory in 80, and as much as that clearly inspired USA hockey, I personally think that 96 was the more significant victory as it affirmed what we had known for at least a few years by then: that the USA could win any tournament at the best on best level (which certainly didn't describe Olympic hockey in 1980).

I prefer 1996 because it was belated affirmation of what had become increasingly clear in recent years. The Americans had arrived at the tier one level and were here to stay. There were no miracles in 96, no back doors to explain away their success.

Thoughts?
 

JianYang

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1980 is the most significant because it transcended the sport. A Hollywood movie was made on it. 1980 was political and inspirational in a way that 96 could never be.

Some of those guys on the 96 roster were probably kids when the miracle happened and inspired by it, therefore the miracle team probably paved the foundation for the next generation in certain respects.
 
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PrimumHockeyist

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1980 is the most significant because it transcended the sport. A Hollywood movie was made on it. 1980 was political and inspirational in a way that 96 could never be.

Some of those guys on the 96 roster were probably kids when the miracle happened and inspired by it, therefore the miracle team probably paved the foundation for the next generation in certain respects.
All very true, and the Miracle on Ice has certainly gotten more love than 96.

But from a hockey person's point of view, and specifically and American ones who saw both in real time, Boomers and Xer s. I wonder if 96 wasn't sweeter in its own way. They followed the arc since 80...It was a true bestie. A three game final. They took it in Montreal - and it still makes me cringe to think that. Good for them.

This calls to mind the Forgotten Miracle. Just a guess here, as far as American public acclimation goes I'm thinking Squaw Valley takes silver and 96 bronze.
 

Mandar

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1980 is the most significant because it transcended the sport. A Hollywood movie was made on it. 1980 was political and inspirational in a way that 96 could never be.

Some of those guys on the 96 roster were probably kids when the miracle happened and inspired by it, therefore the miracle team probably paved the foundation for the next generation in certain respects.
Exactly....

I dont think 1996 even happens if 1980 doesnt happen.
 
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Cruor

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1996 was a very impressive win no doubt, but what followed? Czechs won in '98. Canada in 2002 after Sweden imploded, and then in the 2004 World Cup again. So I'm not sure how much stock you can put in a single tournament win.

As for the World Championships, I think the U.S. still hasn't won in about 50 years.
 

Crosby2010

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1960 and 1980 certainly were good moments at a time when the Americans were not considered threats. 1980 for sure with it being the Soviets and Al Michaels' call at the end and being on home ice and such (I guess 1960 was too). But to go back to 1996, I can remember the lead up to that tournament during the 1995-'96 season. Canada has about 63% of the NHL players, at least half if not more of the best players in the world are Canadian and we had Mario playing other worldly. How the heck can we lose? We don't have a weakness anywhere. Our strength is down the middle and we have most of the coaches in the NHL and at least half of the best goalies in the NHL. Honestly, at a time like this where we hadn't lost in a best on best since 1981 I felt we were a lock cinch.

Then some strange things happened. Patrick Roy wasn't picked for the team. Scotty Bowman, initially the coach, stepped down and they went with a much different approach in Glen Sather. Mario isn't playing, Bourque isn't playing, all of the sudden MacInnis is hurt, Kariya is probably the best left winger in the game and he's hurt, Ron Francis who is Mr. Everything at that time had his best year with 119 points and isn't playing. Just take a look at those names and the starting line up that they boast:

Kariya-Lemieux-Francis
Bourque-MacInnis
Roy

Coach: Bowman

So for me I thought the cracks in the armour of Team Canada started when there were big names not playing. All of the sudden the defense started to look thin. If you take two HHOFers off the team that will happen. Coffey, Stevens, Blake, Niedermayer, Desjardins, Foote, don't look bad, but then when you look at the Americans with Chelios, Leetch, Suter, D. Hatcher, K. Hatcher, Schneider. Hmmm, that's probably an advantage for the Americans. And while our forwards were still great from name recognition, all of the sudden you are relying on an old Gretzky, an old Messier, and an erratic Lindros who hasn't won anything yet. Sakic, Yzerman, Shanahan, Fleury, etc. they all were good too but for the first time I looked at the Americans' forwards and saw a very fast team with good speed and all of the sudden it seemed to make a difference that they had Hull. Throw in Richter who was in his prime and very capable of stealing a game and I will admit when I first looked roster vs. roster up and down the lineup and compared these two I got some quivers. We still almost beat them, and maybe should have, but we weren't at that clear advantage anymore. And our defense and even forwards had well known names but many were in different parts of their careers.

Give the U.S. credit. They lost an overtime game in Game 1 that should have never been scored because of an offside. They could have sulked but didn't. I can remember an interview with Leetch after Game 1 and he sort of just shrugged off the bad call. I thought "Wow, they aren't worried." And this was despite going to Montreal for two games.
 

Staniowski

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The 1980 win was certainly more significant for the development of hockey in the States. But the 1996 win occurred in a more important hockey tournament. Team USA '96 was a powerful team, strong throughout the lineup, versatile, and a cohesive unit. The age dynamics on the team were near perfect, many players were at their physical peaks. Good size and good speed.
 
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PrimumHockeyist

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1960 and 1980 certainly were good moments at a time when the Americans were not considered threats. 1980 for sure with it being the Soviets and Al Michaels' call at the end and being on home ice and such (I guess 1960 was too). But to go back to 1996, I can remember the lead up to that tournament during the 1995-'96 season. Canada has about 63% of the NHL players, at least half if not more of the best players in the world are Canadian and we had Mario playing other worldly. How the heck can we lose? We don't have a weakness anywhere. Our strength is down the middle and we have most of the coaches in the NHL and at least half of the best goalies in the NHL. Honestly, at a time like this where we hadn't lost in a best on best since 1981 I felt we were a lock cinch.

Then some strange things happened. Patrick Roy wasn't picked for the team. Scotty Bowman, initially the coach, stepped down and they went with a much different approach in Glen Sather. Mario isn't playing, Bourque isn't playing, all of the sudden MacInnis is hurt, Kariya is probably the best left winger in the game and he's hurt, Ron Francis who is Mr. Everything at that time had his best year with 119 points and isn't playing. Just take a look at those names and the starting line up that they boast:

Kariya-Lemieux-Francis
Bourque-MacInnis
Roy

Coach: Bowman

So for me I thought the cracks in the armour of Team Canada started when there were big names not playing. All of the sudden the defense started to look thin. If you take two HHOFers off the team that will happen. Coffey, Stevens, Blake, Niedermayer, Desjardins, Foote, don't look bad, but then when you look at the Americans with Chelios, Leetch, Suter, D. Hatcher, K. Hatcher, Schneider. Hmmm, that's probably an advantage for the Americans. And while our forwards were still great from name recognition, all of the sudden you are relying on an old Gretzky, an old Messier, and an erratic Lindros who hasn't won anything yet. Sakic, Yzerman, Shanahan, Fleury, etc. they all were good too but for the first time I looked at the Americans' forwards and saw a very fast team with good speed and all of the sudden it seemed to make a difference that they had Hull. Throw in Richter who was in his prime and very capable of stealing a game and I will admit when I first looked roster vs. roster up and down the lineup and compared these two I got some quivers. We still almost beat them, and maybe should have, but we weren't at that clear advantage anymore. And our defense and even forwards had well known names but many were in different parts of their careers.

Give the U.S. credit. They lost an overtime game in Game 1 that should have never been scored because of an offside. They could have sulked but didn't. I can remember an interview with Leetch after Game 1 and he sort of just shrugged off the bad call. I thought "Wow, they aren't worried." And this was despite going to Montreal for two games.
I found their confidence going into the tournament to be palpable. They had that special feeling. JR noted in an interview. I think many were feeling it. Or, was that just me?

Yes a kind of new parity kicked in that I don't recall being there in 91. Age seemed to matter.

We were effen valiant from start to finish! What a battle it was. Only way to go out.
 

Staniowski

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1960 and 1980 certainly were good moments at a time when the Americans were not considered threats. 1980 for sure with it being the Soviets and Al Michaels' call at the end and being on home ice and such (I guess 1960 was too). But to go back to 1996, I can remember the lead up to that tournament during the 1995-'96 season. Canada has about 63% of the NHL players, at least half if not more of the best players in the world are Canadian and we had Mario playing other worldly. How the heck can we lose? We don't have a weakness anywhere. Our strength is down the middle and we have most of the coaches in the NHL and at least half of the best goalies in the NHL. Honestly, at a time like this where we hadn't lost in a best on best since 1981 I felt we were a lock cinch.

Then some strange things happened. Patrick Roy wasn't picked for the team. Scotty Bowman, initially the coach, stepped down and they went with a much different approach in Glen Sather. Mario isn't playing, Bourque isn't playing, all of the sudden MacInnis is hurt, Kariya is probably the best left winger in the game and he's hurt, Ron Francis who is Mr. Everything at that time had his best year with 119 points and isn't playing. Just take a look at those names and the starting line up that they boast:

Kariya-Lemieux-Francis
Bourque-MacInnis
Roy

Coach: Bowman

So for me I thought the cracks in the armour of Team Canada started when there were big names not playing. All of the sudden the defense started to look thin. If you take two HHOFers off the team that will happen. Coffey, Stevens, Blake, Niedermayer, Desjardins, Foote, don't look bad, but then when you look at the Americans with Chelios, Leetch, Suter, D. Hatcher, K. Hatcher, Schneider. Hmmm, that's probably an advantage for the Americans. And while our forwards were still great from name recognition, all of the sudden you are relying on an old Gretzky, an old Messier, and an erratic Lindros who hasn't won anything yet. Sakic, Yzerman, Shanahan, Fleury, etc. they all were good too but for the first time I looked at the Americans' forwards and saw a very fast team with good speed and all of the sudden it seemed to make a difference that they had Hull. Throw in Richter who was in his prime and very capable of stealing a game and I will admit when I first looked roster vs. roster up and down the lineup and compared these two I got some quivers. We still almost beat them, and maybe should have, but we weren't at that clear advantage anymore. And our defense and even forwards had well known names but many were in different parts of their careers.

Give the U.S. credit. They lost an overtime game in Game 1 that should have never been scored because of an offside. They could have sulked but didn't. I can remember an interview with Leetch after Game 1 and he sort of just shrugged off the bad call. I thought "Wow, they aren't worried." And this was despite going to Montreal for two games.
Yeah, that Yzerman goal was waaaaay offside.
 

Dingo

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the best on bests are in a class of their own. USA 96, Czechs 98, Sweden 2006 and USSR 81 are the biggest victories by any country not called Canada, and, in truth, each one is bigger than any Canadian win as Canada is always the favourite in a best on best. Those 4 victories were absolutely massive.
 

PrimumHockeyist

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the best on bests are in a class of their own. USA 96, Czechs 98, Sweden 2006 and USSR 81 are the biggest victories by any country not called Canada, and, in truth, each one is bigger than any Canadian win as Canada is always the favourite in a best on best. Those 4 victories were absolutely massive.
I'd say they're equal but I totally agree on besties.
 
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MadLuke

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It would have been a surprise if the U.S.didnt win.
Feel quite revisionist history, never a surprise if a team loose against a whole field in a tourney with sudden death games in a sport like hockey, specially if the field includes Canada.

They should be seen as the favorite to win a best of 7, they won fair and square.

As for being a worst roster than 2006, maybe but peak Lindros-Sakic seem a good step above any forward iced by Canada in 2006, old Blake, Foote, Redden, McCabe, Regehr/Pronger on intl ice was not particularly great, Bouwmeester in his element but a bit young.

Was not born in 1980, never really lived the cold war and all that or known a time when the USA were not known to be that good in hockey or that the USSR were unbeatable intl, etc...

So purely in a academic way, it would seem to be miracle on ice and the fact that one is called miracle on ice, has movies about it, etc... and the other 1996 is a bit creating a large bias, but that exactly what we are talking about.

By 1996 they already had that great team, say them loosing in overtime game 3, what does it change ? What does that win changed for who ?

Miracle on Ice is much easier to create a narrative of changing something for the generation of kids watching.
 
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Dingo

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at quick glance the Canadian 1996 roster had 11 Hall of Famers (and a couple more who still might make it), Id guess over 50 Cups..... the three ex-Oilers were 35, other than them the team was mostly in its mid twenties to very early 30s......

this is a weak squad?
 

PrimumHockeyist

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The thing I like especially about the Americans 96 win is that was a bestie and that they won fair and square, in a tournament that purported to be a world championship. We saw their rise and it was quite the long climb. But they totally earned it, and had to go through us which they did. We made them fight like hell for it. They did.

What a strangely novel concept fair play was in the 20th novel concept that was in men's hockey in the 20th century.

I've bent over backwards in the past to separate the European coaches and players from what I'm talking about, but the IIHF and Olympics have a permanent stain that they've never owned up to and probably never will. In the end, it was the NHL that had to show both how to conduct a fair hockey tournament. What a disgrace shamateurism was.
 

PrimumHockeyist

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When Lyle Odelein, Sylvain Cote and Damphousse make the team. it start to show that Kariya-Lemieux-Bourque-MacInnis are missing

You nailed it. While Dingo is correct, in that this was definitely a good team, I felt it was a relatively weak roster when I glanced at it. No offence to him, but when I saw LO I thought, we are in trouble. We're going for too much muscle. I had just returned to Canada prior to the tourney, so I didn't know any of the back stories as Crosby2010 described.
 

Crosby2010

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I found their confidence going into the tournament to be palpable. They had that special feeling. JR noted in an interview. I think many were feeling it. Or, was that just me?

Yes a kind of new parity kicked in that I don't recall being there in 91. Age seemed to matter.

We were effen valiant from start to finish! What a battle it was. Only way to go out.

Funny thing is, Roenick wasn't even on the 1996 team. Neither was Vanbiesbrouck who had just marched to the Cup final. I am guessing not having a contract at the time was the reason for JR. Not sure why Beezer wasn't in there, although no guarantee he unseats Richter.
 
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Crocodiligator

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Funny thing is, Roenick wasn't even on the 1996 team. Neither was Vanbiesbrouck who had just marched to the Cup final. I am guessing not having a contract at the time was the reason for JR. Not sure why Beezer wasn't in there, although no guarantee he unseats Richter.
I believe Beezer missed the 1996 tournament because he just had a shoulder surgery
 

BraveCanadian

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1980 is important for raising awareness of the game in the USA and making 1996 possible. From a hockey perspective, 1996 is the more significant victory.

Beating Team Canada in a best-on-best series is a more impressive culmination of USA hockey's development than a fluke win in single elimination.
 
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PrimumHockeyist

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Funny thing is, Roenick wasn't even on the 1996 team. Neither was Vanbiesbrouck who had just marched to the Cup final. I am guessing not having a contract at the time was the reason for JR. Not sure why Beezer wasn't in there, although no guarantee he unseats Richter.

That was a barometer thing, We missed guys, yes, but so did the US.

My lingering memory of JR is how gracious he was after the game in Salt Lake City in 02. His level of class was exemplary in that moment. 10/10
 

Doctor No

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I believe Beezer missed the 1996 tournament because he just had a shoulder surgery

I'm surprised that Pelletier/Houda's book doesn't mention Vanbiesbrouck - "With 1996 Vezina Trophy winner Jim Carey, Rangers' electrifying Mike Richter and Anaheim's Guy Hebert in goal Team USA knew they would have solid goaltending regardless of who they dressed."

The Hartford Courant (August 20, 1996) ties it together - and the Miami Herald (August 4) dates his surgery to August 7, expected to be back by the start of Panthers' training camp September 7.

1703958992586.png


I'll add this onto my site so that I don't lose it later.
 

PrimumHockeyist

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To your point
1980 is the most significant because it transcended the sport. A Hollywood movie was made on it. 1980 was political and inspirational in a way that 96 could never be.

Some of those guys on the 96 roster were probably kids when the miracle happened and inspired by it, therefore the miracle team probably paved the foundation for the next generation in certain respects.

:

 

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