minnesota expansion

[bwild70]

if the nhl wanted to expand to new markets in the 90s how come they expanded to minnesota

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[KevFist]

Rich Peverley wanted to play in Minneapolis every once in a while.

 

[Jesus Christ Horburn]

Even before the NHL granted Minnesota the Wild, the Winnipeg Jets were supposed to relocate there in 1995.

However, like Glendale now, the NHL granted Winnipeg a one-year extension in 1995 and by the time 1996 rolled around, Phoenix had moved ahead of Minneapolis on the list of preferred relocation/expansion cities.

 

[NorthernILHawksFan]

Even before the NHL granted Minnesota the Wild, the Winnipeg Jets were supposed to relocate there in 1995.

However, like Glendale now, the NHL granted Winnipeg a one-year extension in 1995 and by the time 1996 rolled around, Phoenix had moved ahead of Minneapolis on the list of preferred relocation/expansion cities.

I never knew the Jets were possibly headed to Minnesota. Interesting.

People always say Bettman is anti-Canadian, citing the Jets/Nords moves, but forget about Minnesota and Harford. Bettman isn't anti-canadian, he's just a complete clown.

 

[kdb209]

I never knew the Jets were possibly headed to Minnesota. Interesting.

People always say Bettman is anti-Canadian, citing the Jets/Nords moves, but forget about Minnesota and Harford. Bettman isn't anti-canadian, he's just a complete clown.

Sigh.

Bettman did not move the North Stars - Norm Green did.

Bettman did not move the Whalers - Peter Karmanos did.

And while we're at it, lets run down the litany of other "sins" GB gets accused of:

Bettman did not move the Nordiques - Marcel Aubut did, when he sold them to Comsat.

Bettman did not move the Jets - Barry Shenkarow did, when he sold them to Gluckstern and Burke.

Bettman had nothing to do with the expansion teams in San Jose, Anaheim, Ottawa, Florida, and Tampa - they were granted under Zeigler.

Bettman was involved in the expansion process to Minnesota, Columbus, Atlanta, and Nashville - so OK, you can pin a grand total of two "Southern" markets on him.

And back to the OP - Norm Green moved the North Stars because of short term greed and some personal issues, not because of the failings of the Twin Cities as a market. Returning there as an expansion team was a no brainer after a new arena was built.

 

[Wet Sprocket]

Count me as someone who used to feel that way. Over time though, I guess I educated myself. Bettman surely isn't perfect, but the stuff he gets blamed for is laughable and too.

 

[AllByDesign]

Sigh.

And back to the OP - Norm Green moved the North Stars because of short term greed and some personal issues, not because of the failings of the Twin Cities as a market. Returning there as an expansion team was a no brainer after a new arena was built.

One of the funniest quotes I have ever heard from a new owner...

The Sports Illustrated article included a quote from North Stars booster club president Julie Hammond: "When [Norm Green] came here, he said, 'Only an idiot could lose money on hockey in Minnesota.' Well, I guess he proved that point."

Funny.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

if the nhl wanted to expand to new markets in the 90s how come they expanded to minnesota

Because it was completely silly to have a state with as rich a history of hockey as Minnesota to not have a team.

 

[Mike in MN]

Lets see,

15th largest US market that's as hockey CRAZY as Canada? A place where high school hockey is equal to high school football in Texas? The state with nearly HALF of the college teams in the WCHA? Yeah, why would we get a team?

The only thing needed was a new barn (sound familiar?) and a decent owner. Personal issues aside, Norm Green didn't have the patience to deal with MN's sloooooow legislative process when it comes to building new sports facilities. It took nearly a decade each to approve the Metrodome and Target Field.

Oh, and the Wild play in St Paul. Minnesota is OK too as a location name, but DON'T say Minneapolis!

 

[bodybreak]

WINNIPEG, Manitoba The Winnipeg Jets, who joined the NHL in 1979, have been sold to an American group for $68 million and will leave the city after the season, possibly for Minneapolis.

Barry Shenkarow, principal owner of the Jets, said today the team has been purchased by investors Richard Burke of Minneapolis and Steven Gluckstern of New York.

Negotiations have been ongoing between Burke and Minneapolis officials to bring the Jets to Minneapolis. The North Stars left Minnesota after the 1992-93 season.

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-4304448.html

Minnesota and Minneapolis officials have told the new owner of the Winnipeg Jets hockey team they cannot meet his demands to publicly subsidize the team.

Jets owner Richard Burke had said he would need a $10.2 million annual boost to profitably bring the hockey team to sticks-starved Minnesota. The team would have played in the Target Center arena, which Minneapolis purchased this year with proceeds from a controversial $73 million general obligation bond issue.

Burke had asked state and city officials to put together a package of tax breaks and subsidies for the …

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-17512316.html

Finding both of those was news to me... The reason that sticks out in my mind for thee Jets to Minnesota deal falling through was that the MN owners couldn't work out a lease agreement with Target Center. (Props to Xcel Energy Center for seemingly being the only venue in Minneapolis with corporate support NOT called Target something lol) [EDIT : apparently this is because they play in St. Paul, and not Minneapolis lol]

EDIT #2: Something I also hadn't realized at the time (oh, to be 12 again) -- was that Burke and Gluckstern were behind the Minnesota bid. They were the big names mentioned when the team had been "sold to Phoenix" as well. Wiki says Suns' owner Colangelo and other investors were among the inaugural Phoenix owners as well.

 

[sushinsky4tsar]

I find it hard to believe there were only 4 years between the North Stars leaving and the announcement of an expansion team. I was in the 5th grade when they left and just starting to get in to the sport. Between two awful seasons of Moose hockey, the unsuccessful wooing of the Jets and Whalers, it felt like an eternity. In the end, I think we were fortunate to end up with our own expansion team in a brand new arena.

The Jets were the closest. They would have played in the Target Center I recall rumblings that Northwest Airlines was trying to work a deal to rename them the Northwest Jets I can't imagine that would have been approved.

Whalers were a close second. They would have played in a renovated (not rebuilt) St. Paul Civic Center at the same site as Xcel. I believe Columbus also made a strong push for the Whale, and then Releigh kind of came out of left field.

I remember some speculation of a possible temporary relocation of the Florida Panthers to this same site. I can't even begin to imagine what the premise of that was supposed to be. I think it was a story mostly manufactured by a local columnist.

 

[Ozzie Bear]

Even before the NHL granted Minnesota the Wild, the Winnipeg Jets were supposed to relocate there in 1995.

However, like Glendale now, the NHL granted Winnipeg a one-year extension in 1995 and by the time 1996 rolled around, Phoenix had moved ahead of Minneapolis on the list of preferred relocation/expansion cities.

This is true. The deal was for MN & NY investors to move the Jets to the Target Center in downtown Minneapolis. When that deal fell tru, the Jets moved to downtown Pheonix. The irony of sorts, is that the IHL's Minnesota Moose then became the Manitoba Moose when the St Paul Civic Center was torn down to make way for the Xcell Energy Center which was built on the same site, for the expansion MN Wild.

 

[thinkwild]

And any city that had a great player like Cesare Maniago deserves a franchise. Perhaps, like St Paul being better than Minneapolis, Scottsdale will be better than Glendale in the end too.

Sigh.

Bettman did not move the North Stars - Norm Green did.

Bettman did not move the Whalers - Peter Karmanos did.

And while we're at it, lets run down the litany of other "sins" GB gets accused of:

Bettman did not move the Nordiques - Marcel Aubut did, when he sold them to Comsat.

Bettman did not move the Jets - Barry Shenkarow did, when he sold them to Gluckstern and Burke.

And this all seems to be quite different from what would happen now. Now it seems the league is trying to make the point that sales such as these would be two transactions? Were they also back then but the lack of scrutiny or massive fees led to it being glossed over?

If Norm Green wanted to move the North Stars today, such a decision would be a BoG not Norm Green decision, and he would be charged a relocation fee if they agreed?

Aubut might be able to sell the Nordiques to Denver today, but only if that was in the leagues plans, and even then, Aubut could only sell and recover money for the value of the Québec franchise; the new Denver owner would then have to pay a relocation fee to the league to move them.

Of course, Hartford, Quebec, and Winnipeg were all WHA franchises that tried to compete with the nhl, eventually were bought out by the nhl, and then as quickly as possible disposed of by the nhl, as presumably had they really wanted those markets, they would have expanded there in the first place. Ironically after Winnipeg’s salary inflationary adventures as a WHA team, giving the golden jet the first million dollar contract, in the end it bit them in the backside. But from the leagues perspective, they may have thought of them less as Canadian markets than WHA ones.

As the Globe Sports columnist was recently musing, what message is Bettman’s fight with Moyes sending to other owners. I’d think, that like scarface, Bettman is sending the message: don’t mess with me man. Like trying to pull that crap that Aubut, Green, and Shenkarow did in the past regime. Of course we all know how scarface would enunciate that.

Is this a different mindset from the league than the old days? Days when the owner could sell his franchise to a new city and recover that difference for himself? Is this a different direction the league has been trying to enforce between it and its franchises? Consistent with its fight with the NYR over web sites. and their fight with Moyes, and the NFL v American Needle?

If it is, as a fan of a small market team it would seem to be in my best interest, that if our owner becomes financially distressed, that he has a hard time selling to another city in order to get out of his predicament. But I wonder how many existing owners are thinking, whoa, maybe Bettman really is scarface. Is that really what they signed up for?

 

[HackandLube]

The NHL promised Minnesota they would get a new franchise the next expansion round after the North Stars were sold.

 

[Buck Aki Berg]

The only thing needed was a new barn (sound familiar?) and a decent owner. Personal issues aside, Norm Green didn't have the patience to deal with MN's sloooooow legislative process when it comes to building new sports facilities. It took nearly a decade each to approve the Metrodome and Target Field.

Can you provide any insight on why the Target Center wasn't considered a viable place for the North Stars to play? Was it unsuitable for hockey prior to the 1994 renos?

 

[Mike in MN]

Can you provide any insight on why the Target Center wasn't considered a viable place for the North Stars to play? Was it unsuitable for hockey prior to the 1994 renos?

The Target Center WAS a viable option at the time. It was also privately built by the owners of the expansion Timberwolves (Marv and Harv) When Norm Green wanted money to renovate the old Met Center in suburban Bloomington, the movers-and-shakers in Minneapolis pulled strings, trying to force the North Stars to move downtown. Of course, the Stars would have been relegated to being tenants, and lease negotiations broke down.

Add in a eccentric @$%&^%^%# owner, and Dallas, baby.

 

[Canadian91]

Sigh.

Bettman did not move the North Stars - Norm Green did.

Bettman did not move the Whalers - Peter Karmanos did.

But he could've and should've easily stopped those moves by just saying no... like what he did to Balsillie last summer. If he had a problem with somebody moving Minny and Hartford, him and his board could've overruled it just like that.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

But he could've and should've easily stopped those moves by just saying no... like what he did to Balsillie last summer. If he had a problem with somebody moving Minny and Hartford, him and his board could've overruled it just like that.

tht's the misconception some believe, Canadian, Bettman likely wasn't involved in those relocations, those were between the franchises and the BOG, THE SAME HAPPENED w/ Balsillie in '07, BUT THE power rests w/ the Board as to when/if a relocation is needed, those states are partly to blame for losing the Stars/Whalers which is why Minnesota was granted the Wild. Balsillie thought he'd pull a fast one wrt PHX BK, which Baum rejected.

 

[Buck Aki Berg]

The Target Center WAS a viable option at the time. It was also privately built by the owners of the expansion Timberwolves (Marv and Harv) When Norm Green wanted money to renovate the old Met Center in suburban Bloomington, the movers-and-shakers in Minneapolis pulled strings, trying to force the North Stars to move downtown. Of course, the Stars would have been relegated to being tenants, and lease negotiations broke down.

Add in a eccentric @$%&^%^%# owner, and Dallas, baby.

I wonder what would've happened if the city had bought the Target Center a couple of years earlier.

 

[kdb209]

But he could've and should've easily stopped those moves by just saying no... like what he did to Balsillie last summer. If he had a problem with somebody moving Minny and Hartford, him and his board could've overruled it just like that.

Not really.

There is a fundamental legal difference between approving the relocation of a team by an existing owner and the approval of the sale of a team to a new owner - blocking the former presents much more significant anti trust issues than the latter - and may not have even been possible in the post Raiders legal environment.

And there are other fundamental differences -

- Did Minny and Hartford (and Quebec and Winnipeg) basically blow off the league and use bankruptcy court to try to evade all league restrictions on relocation/sale?

- Did they have valid long term leases on publicly funded arenas?

- Did they have arenas that would have allowed them to be economically successful? Did they have any plans for new arenas?

 

[GopherState]

Rich Peverley wanted to play in Minneapolis every once in a while.

Too bad Peverly only gets to play in St. Paul unless he somehow has college eligibility.

Lets see,

15th largest US market that's as hockey CRAZY as Canada? A place where high school hockey is equal to high school football in Texas? The state with nearly HALF of the college teams in the WCHA? Yeah, why would we get a team?

The only thing needed was a new barn (sound familiar?) and a decent owner. Personal issues aside, Norm Green didn't have the patience to deal with MN's sloooooow legislative process when it comes to building new sports facilities. It took nearly a decade each to approve the Metrodome and Target Field.

Oh, and the Wild play in St Paul. Minnesota is OK too as a location name, but DON'T say Minneapolis!

And a decade is being on the nice side.

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-4304448.html



http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-17512316.html

Finding both of those was news to me... The reason that sticks out in my mind for thee Jets to Minnesota deal falling through was that the MN owners couldn't work out a lease agreement with Target Center. (Props to Xcel Energy Center for seemingly being the only venue in Minneapolis with corporate support NOT called Target something lol) [EDIT : apparently this is because they play in St. Paul, and not Minneapolis lol]

EDIT #2: Something I also hadn't realized at the time (oh, to be 12 again) -- was that Burke and Gluckstern were behind the Minnesota bid. They were the big names mentioned when the team had been "sold to Phoenix" as well. Wiki says Suns' owner Colangelo and other investors were among the inaugural Phoenix owners as well.

TCF Bank Stadium says hi along with "Mall of America Field at HHH Metrodome."

Can you provide any insight on why the Target Center wasn't considered a viable place for the North Stars to play? Was it unsuitable for hockey prior to the 1994 renos?

It was viable (it hosted at least one of the neutral-site games the NHL had around that time), there was just tons of red tape to go through. As Mike in MN mentioned, the North Stars would have been a tenant rather than the owner, and Norm Green also wanted to develop the area around the Mall of America (where the Met Center was located); something that wasn't possible with the Target Center (which is in the heart of downtown Minneapolis).

As far as the Jets deal goes, it was disrupted by the city of Winnipeg trying to buy the team and keep it there. The Target Center was owned by the city and they were willing to make concessions, but by the time the dust cleared Phoenix had a better offer and the city of St. Paul used the opportunity to build a new arena and land an expansion team.

and the Jets deal happened when there was an uncertain future with the building as the city ended up taking over from Harvy and Marv.