McDavid vs Crosby (by the age 26)

[WingsFan95]

Peyton is one of the greatest quarterbacks to ever play the game. Literally. So calling him a “trash QB” makes little sense. Was he the beta QB during his second superbowl win? No, but he was still their main offensive guy and ran the show. He wasn’t a bottom feeder getting carried to a championship like Andreychuk.

You are seriously delusional with your opinions on this.

Denver Broncos Peyton Manning is in the bottom 10 Super Bowl winning QBs ever. Well below the likes of Hostetler, Rypien and McMahon who were actually really good in their runs but most don't know that. He's only better than the Dilfer, Johnson types and even then I think Johnson was pretty solid game manager.

 

[Gurglesons]

You honestly think it's the cup in Bourque's final season that vaulted him into the conversation for the top defensemen of all time behind Orr? And he'd be toiling away with the likes of Park and who... Salming as the best of the non-winners?

Yes.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Denver Broncos Peyton Manning is in the bottom 10 Super Bowl winning QBs ever. Well below the likes of Hostetler, Rypien and McMahon who were actually really good in their runs but most don't know that. He's only better than the Dilfer, Johnson types and even then I think Johnson was pretty solid game manager.

It wasn’t that bad. Again, he wasn’t his old self at the age he was at. That still doesn’t change the fact that his first Super Bowl he was MVP. Again, he’s a top 3-5 QB on most lists. So saying McDavid would turn into a Peyton Manning of the NHL, isn’t a bad thing.

Yes.

It didn’t. He would have been a top 2-3 defenseman all time without a cup.

 

[Gurglesons]

It wasn’t that bad. Again, he wasn’t his old self at the age he was at. That still doesn’t change the fact that his first Super Bowl he was MVP. Again, he’s a top 3-5 QB on most lists. So saying McDavid would turn into a Peyton Manning of the NHL, isn’t a bad thing.

It didn’t. He would have been a top 2-3 defenseman all time without a cup.

Doubt it.

 

[Video Nasty]

Doubt it.

For someone who frequently tries to call out others for not “being there”, Bourque was known as such before he won the Cup. The average hockey person seemed to have a better grasp on context and empathy a quarter of a century ago.

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

McDavid player and Mcdavid Career for that stretch

 

[Gurglesons]

For someone who frequently tries to call out others for not “being there”, Bourque was known as such before he won the Cup. The average hockey person seemed to have a better grasp on context and empathy a quarter of a century ago.

List of 100 greatest NHL players by The Hockey News - Simple English Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

simple.wikipedia.org

• 
  Wayne Gretzky
• Bobby Orr
• Gordie Howe
• Mario Lemieux[1]
• Maurice Richard
• Doug Harvey
• Jean Beliveau
• Bobby Hull
• Terry Sawchuk[2]
• Eddie Shore
• Guy Lafleur
• Mark Messier
• Jacques Plante
• Ray Bourque

Bourque was ranked the 4th best defenseman by the Hockey News in 1998.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Doubt it.

1st in points, goals, and assists among all defensemen. 5x Norris winner, 9 other times a nominee. 13x First team, 6x second team.

It’s ok to be wrong, first step is admitting it.

 

[Gurglesons]

1st in points, goals, and assists among all defensemen. 5x Norris winner, 9 other times a nominee. 13x First team, 6x second team.

It’s ok to be wrong, first step is admitting it.

Please see the post above yours.

Same ranking had Yzerman 70th in 1998. Didn't see a lot of individual awards from 1998 - 2008 for Yzerman.

Cups effect legacy. It's just a fact.

If McDavid never wins a cup he'll be viewed below Crosby.

 

[blundluntman]

Yes.

This is what happens when you blindly subscribe to a top-down narrative so stubbornly that you don't care how ridiculous you sound.

 

[Gurglesons]

This is what happens when you blindly subscribe to a top-down narrative so stubbornly that you don't care how ridiculous you sound.

I think it's just the reality of professional sports right or wrong. Championships matter.

 

[McFlash97]

Buddy do you watch both of them play. Ffs it is night and day. McDavid Is a winger who occasionally takes draws. Gtfo with that bs kid

 

[McFlash97]

Don't cry because McDavid with both miss the playoffs and not win a single award this year. I'll play you a note on the world's smallest violin

McDavid will make the playoffs.

Your right though. McDavid may not win a single award, but guess what. He doesn't have to win a single award for the rest of his career to be ahead of Crosbys career award totals .

Crazy part. He is still 26.

Also guess what.

If you want to count cups, Messier would shxxx on Crosby in a playoff series. Anything else ?

 

[Human]

Yeah, no. That was Malkin/Kessel/Letang doing the heavy lifting

Did you know Crosby and McDavid have been the leading playoff scorer on a Cup winner the same # of times?

Yeah, that’s why they have the same numbers of Conn Smythes. Oh wait…

BTW, Letang was on the third pairing in 2009, and Kessel was a Leaf…

Edit: these are the wing pairs that Crosby and Malkin made Cup winners:

Kunitz/Dupuis
Talbot/Fedotenko

Also Crosby made Kunitz an olympic gold medalist.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Yeah, that’s why they have the same numbers of Conn Smythes. Oh wait…

BTW, Letang was on the third pairing in 2009, and Kessel was a Leaf…

Edit: these are the wing pairs that Crosby and Malkin made Cup winners:

Kunitz/Dupuis
Talbot/Fedotenko

Also Crosby made Kunitz an olympic gold medalist.

Kunitz/Guerin

 

[Human]

Kunitz/Guerin

Brainfart. Yes, Dupuis was a healthy scratch half of the playoffs.

 

[WingsFan95]

Please see the post above yours.

Same ranking had Yzerman 70th in 1998. Didn't see a lot of individual awards from 1998 - 2008 for Yzerman.

Cups effect legacy. It's just a fact.

If McDavid never wins a cup he'll be viewed below Crosby.

Yes but Crosby has accomplished a lot and he's got enough Top 5 finishes in the Hart, Ross (Top 3 actually) that it's not so far statistically with his 3 Cups being a big boost for sure.

 

[Gurglesons]

Yes but Crosby has accomplished a lot and he's got enough Top 5 finishes in the Hart, Ross (Top 3 actually) that it's not so far statistically with his 3 Cups being a big boost for sure.

Well that’s the issue people run into when discussing these “elite players”. They want to say “team awards” are “team award” but that is often where the separation is drawn. Much like Crosby’s team largely dominating Ovechkin leading to Crosby’s reign over him for much of the career.

For the Bourque argument, I think a certain group of people take Lidstrom over Bourque because of exactly that.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Well that’s the issue people run into when discussing these “elite players”. They want to say “team awards” are “team award” but that is often where the separation is drawn. Much like Crosby’s team largely dominating Ovechkin leading to Crosby’s reign over him for much of the career.

For the Bourque argument, I think a certain group of people take Lidstrom over Bourque because of exactly that.

It’s interesting because in 2011-12, the History section did a poll for the top 60 defensemen of all time, and Bourque ranked 3rd while Lidstrom ranked 5th.

In 2018-19, they did another top 100 players of all time and Bourque ranked 10th, only behind Orr and Harvey. Lidstrom ranked 15th

 

[Gurglesons]

It’s interesting because in 2011-12, the History section did a poll for the top 60 defensemen of all time, and Bourque ranked 3rd while Lidstrom ranked 5th.

In 2018-19, they did another top 100 players of all time and Bourque ranked 10th, only behind Orr and Harvey. Lidstrom ranked 15th

I'm not saying one is right or wrong. Just saying some people view Lidstrom over Bourque due to championships.

You also are doing what I've seen you do throughout the thread which is manipulating the argument. Your original argument was that Bourque was a 2-3 viewed defenseman prior to his championship.

I personally have Bourque over Lidstrom. Just like I have McDavid over Crosby as a player, but I think the 3 cups and 2 Smythes outweigh the regular season success when considering Crosby was largely viewed as the best player in the league for multiple years like McDavid, his trophy case just isn't as large due to injury.

 

[The Macho King]

McDavid in a walk - no disrespect to Sid.

The argument is going to be playoffs. McDavid is excellent in the playoffs - he just has shit all (besides Draisatl) to help carry the load. None of those middle six guys who elevate their game, no defenseman that just makes sure nothing happens on either side of the ice in their 21 minutes, no goaltender to keep the game close.

Playoffs are *very* important when rating players in the NHL. The way schedules work, divisions, deployment - there's a lot of noise in the regular season. But when you're facing one team for 7 games, that's when you have to elevate. And to McDavid's credit, he does.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

McDavid in a walk - no disrespect to Sid.

The argument is going to be playoffs. McDavid is excellent in the playoffs - he just has shit all (besides Draisatl) to help carry the load. None of those middle six guys who elevate their game, no defenseman that just makes sure nothing happens on either side of the ice in their 21 minutes, no goaltender to keep the game close.

Playoffs are *very* important when rating players in the NHL. The way schedules work, divisions, deployment - there's a lot of noise in the regular season. But when you're facing one team for 7 games, that's when you have to elevate. And to McDavid's credit, he does.

McDavid had one very good playoffs when his line was stacked with their 3 beat forwards and has been disappointing at even strength in other years

 

[Sasha Orlov]

McDavid had one very good playoffs when his line was stacked with their 3 beat forwards and has been disappointing at even strength in other years

 

[Video Nasty]

McDavid had one very good playoffs when his line was stacked with their 3 beat forwards and has been disappointing at even strength in other years

During Crosby’s 2 Conn Smythe wins, he scored a total of 7 EVG and 28 EVP in 48 games, or a .5833 EV-PPG.

Omitting McDavid’s 2022 playoffs, he scored 5 EVG and 14 EVP in 20 games during 2020, 2021, and 2023, or a .700 EV-PPG.

Long story short, your argument isn’t as solid as you think it is.

 

[GreatGonzo]

I'm not saying one is right or wrong. Just saying some people view Lidstrom over Bourque due to championships.

You also are doing what I've seen you do throughout the thread which is manipulating the argument. Your original argument was that Bourque was a 2-3 viewed defenseman prior to his championship.

I personally have Bourque over Lidstrom. Just like I have McDavid over Crosby as a player, but I think the 3 cups and 2 Smythes outweigh the regular season success when considering Crosby was largely viewed as the best player in the league for multiple years like McDavid, his trophy case just isn't as large due to injury.

How am I manipulating? Do you even know the meaning of the word? Most of the history boards voted Bourque over Lidstrom despite cups, just providing details on the matter.

You are the one that said Bourque wouldn’t have had a lasting legacy if he didn’t win a cup. That’s just false overall.

McDavid had one very good playoffs when his line was stacked with their 3 beat forwards and has been disappointing at even strength in other years

The guy who’s lead the league in ES points multiple times has been disappointing? Try again.