McDavid Right Now vs. Crosby at His Peak

[daver]

but did he win 2 Ross's back to back?

it is crazy that he is four seasons in and if he picks up another individual award this season he will be half way to meeting Sids individual trophy count.

It's crazy as long as you have no conception that it is hard to win awards when you miss games.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Were you drunk when posting this or do you have such a hard on for ****ing on Crosby that you make such nonsensical posts?

I'm not even going to bother responding to this, this is a crap post filled with strawman after strawman arguments. If you look at Crosby from 2010 to 2013 and compare him to McDavid from 2017 to today, there isn't an analytical argument for McDavid. Crosby was better both offensively (higher ES points/60 and higher xGF/60 rel) and defensively (slightly better xGA/60 rel). The nonsense you posted doesn't refute any of that. Maybe actually reply to the argument I make instead of just screaming "REEEEEE GRACE PERIOD REEE CROSBY'S THE BEST BECAUSE OF 22 GAMES REEEEE"

Citing him as a “dominant defensive” player during his peak is far from the facts and reality. Don’t get sassy just because I simply pointed out the obvious. He wasn’t “dominant” defensively and following one stat where he happens to be better than McDavid doesn’t make his defense dominant either. Just because Crosby is better defensively now doesn’t mean you get to spread his grace period back 10 years ago and try to cover the idea that he always has been. He wasn’t.

Then don’t? Because your clearly getting bent out of shape because someone won’t bow down to your golden boy and prop him up as an untouchable. Posters like you are constantly citing how “Crosby was at a level McDavid could never touch.” Ya.....for 22 games?!

I’m not the one ignoring the games played and how significant that number is on his stats. Crosby in those 22 or 36, or 41 games wasn’t better than anything McDavid has done.

Keep the circus going my friend, it’s entertaining watching you desperately defend Crosby as a god.

 

[GreatGonzo]

It's crazy as long as you have no conception that it is hard to win awards when you miss games.

Almost as hard as it is for you to understand that you can’t count it as “he would have won anyway so it’s the same thing!” Crosby didn’t win anything 2/3 of those years because he wasn’t playing. You can’t be dominant if your not playing and you can’t get special treatment and get the benefit of the doubt just because it’s your favorite player.

 

[GreatGonzo]

You mean... one year after Crosby began his career?

Your argument is that the 1st overall pick, couldn't lead his bottom feeding team to the playoffs in his rookie season at the age of 18... which means that he's worse than McDavid (who couldn't do this either)?

Who joined him after his first year again? Who helped him pile on PP points to his first Art Ross and Hart? Who ended up 2nd in points the following year with an Hart Nominee? Who then the following year won his first scoring title with another Hart Nominee, beating out Crosby?...and then had one of the most offensively dominant post seasons to a Smythe? Sure wasn’t Crosby......

Why continue ignoring major context with that? Malkin had just as big of an impact on the team as Crosby did within their first few years together. They both carried that Pens team to the finals where Crosby became a non factor in every way and Malkin was the one who made the final and most significant impact......

 

[GreatGonzo]

Interested to hear how this claim can be backed up. He doesn't even has the best offensive season since he joined the league. Nor the 2nd best for that matter.

Jagr and OV have him beat for consecutive elite seasons, Crosby has him beat in level of play over multiple seasons.

Malkin and Kane have better peak seasons.

The only safe claim is to say he neck and neck with Crosby in terms of elite regular season offensive play in their first four years.

No he doesn’t. McDavid over the last 3 seasons has been better and more impactful than Crosby was during his peak. You can’t use such small game sizes to cite a level of play that you feel wasn’t reached by McDavid. McDavid actually played all the games and earned his awards. Your bias has you giving Crosby credit for being amazing for 22 games and then being convinced that those 22 games were the best Crosby that no one can beat.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Citing him as a “defensive and offensive” player during his peak is far from the facts and reality.

I literally never did that.

Don’t get sassy just because I simply pointed out the obvious. He wasn’t “dominant” defensively and following one stat where he happens to be better than McDavid doesn’t make his defense dominant either. Just because Crosby is better defensively now doesn’t mean you get to spread his grace period back 10 years ago and try to cover the idea that he always has been. He wasn’t.

I literally never did that.

Then don’t? Because your clearly getting bent out of shape because someone won’t bow down to your golden boy and prop him up as an untouchable. Posters like you are constantly citing how “Crosby was at a level McDavid could never touch.” Ya.....for 22 games?!

I’m not the one ignoring the games played and how significant that number is on his stats. Crosby in those 22 or 36, or 41 games wasn’t better than anything McDavid has done.

God, do you even read the stuff you're replying to?

Keep the circus going my friend, it’s entertaining watching you desperately defend Crosby as a god.

Here are the things you made up that I never said:

1. That I said Crosby was great defensively, when in reality, I just said he was better than McDavid defensively (who is bad defensively)
2. That I said Crosby was better because of 22 games (or any individual season), when in reality, I was looking at a 3 year sample size that is widely considered Crosby's peak. Would you rather me use 2009-2012 or 2011-2014? Because both of those sample sizes say the same thing, plus they're the same size as McDavid's 2017-today sample size.
3. That I said that "Crosby was at a level McDavid could never touch", when I never said such a thing

Honestly, it's just pathetic. Like you're just such a sad Crosby hater that you'll grasp to whatever you can to tear him down. I posted an actual argument, and your defense was screeching, making up bull**** arguments and acting like I was the "desperate" one or I was "getting bent out of shape". Your bitter and sad because you hate Crosby so much and he's a great player. Just admit it so people can stop engaging with your bull****. The circus is you trying to perform mental gymnastics anyway you can to tear down Crosby.

What's funny is that if you go back to my actual argument, it was me posting points/60, xGF/60 rel and xGA/60 rel for their 3 year sample sizes. That's literally all I did.

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

Crosby AINEC.

But Peak Ovechkin > either of them tbh. Now that was one dominant player.

 

[GreatGonzo]

I literally never did that.



I literally never did that.



God, do you even read the stuff you're replying to?



Here are the things you made up that I never said:

1. That I said Crosby was great defensively, when in reality, I just said he was better than McDavid defensively (who is bad defensively)
2. That I said Crosby was better because of 22 games (or any individual season), when in reality, I was looking at a 3 year sample size that is widely considered Crosby's peak. Would you rather me use 2009-2012 or 2011-2014? Because both of those sample sizes say the same thing, plus they're the same size as McDavid's 2017-today sample size.
3. That I said that "Crosby was at a level McDavid could never touch", when I never said such a thing

Honestly, it's just pathetic. Like you're just such a sad Crosby hater that you'll grasp to whatever you can to tear him down. I posted an actual argument, and your defense was screeching, making up bull**** arguments and acting like I was the "desperate" one or I was "getting bent out of shape". Your bitter and sad because you hate Crosby so much and he's a great player. Just admit it so people can stop engaging with your bull****. The circus is you trying to perform mental gymnastics anyway you can to tear down Crosby.

What's funny is that if you go back to my actual argument, it was me posting points/60, xGF/60 rel and xGA/60 rel for their 3 year sample sizes. That's literally all I did.

I never said you did, did I? You quoted me after I was clearly quoting someone else. You couldn’t control your impulses because your feelings got hurt and decided to quote me as if I was even talking to you....so what’s your deal?

Are you gonna go around whining about what other people say about your boy because you can’t handle other opinions, especially the ones that are factual?

What’s pathetic is you go out of your way to “HOW DARE YOU!!!” Me because Someone not thinking Crosby is the most amazing player ever gets lost on you because your reality is no
Matter what, no matter who, Crosby is better and everyone better agree with me or else be branded a hater!!! No one is a hater, that’s just something you have to say to make yourself feel better and justified in your ways. Its weak, but that’s your choice.

This is all you bud, your the one getting personal and acting like I attacked you. Get over it and go bug someone else with that fanboy garbage. Cool?

 

[Empoleon8771]

If you're going to get so bent out of shape over games played, how about this:

McDavid 2017-today: 169 games, 13.29% GF%Rel, 0.81 xGF/60 Rel, 0.47 xGA/Rel, +3.54% xGF% Rel, 3.02 points/60
Crosby 2009-2012: 144 games played, 11.88% GF%Rel, 0.80 xGF/60 Rel, 0.32 xGA/60 Rel, +4.12% xGF% Rel, 3.72 points/60
Crosby 2011-2014: 138 games played, 15.51% GF%Rel, 1.0 xGF/60 Rel, 0.04 xGA/60 Rel, +10.06% xGF%Rel 3.32 points/60

So I was actually wrong, he was better analytically in 2013-2014 than he was in 2010-2011. But I can't wait to see how this is just me "desperately trying to defend my golden boy".

 

[Merrrlin]

If you're going to get so bent out of shape over games played, how about this:

McDavid 2017-today: 169 games, 13.29% GF%Rel, 0.81 xGF/60 Rel, 0.47 xGA/Rel, +3.54% xGF% Rel, 3.02 points/60
Crosby 2009-2012: 144 games played, 11.88% GF%Rel, 0.80 xGF/60 Rel, 0.32 xGA/60 Rel, +4.12% xGF% Rel, 3.72 points/60
Crosby 2011-2014: 138 games played, 15.51% GF%Rel, 1.0 xGF/60 Rel, 0.04 xGA/60 Rel, +10.06% xGF%Rel 3.32 points/60

So I was actually wrong, he was better analytically in 2013-2014 than he was in 2010-2011. But I can't wait to see how this is just me "desperately trying to defend my golden boy".

Thanks for posting the stats. They are close but no one could generate offence quite like prime Crosby.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I never said you did, did I? You quoted me after I was clearly quoting someone else. You couldn’t control your impulses because your feelings got hurt and decided to quote me as if I was even talking to you....so what’s your deal?

You literally did not quote anyone in that post except for me. I specifically logged out of my account to verify that, too. You only quoted me.

Are you gonna go around whining about what other people say about your boy because you can’t handle other opinions, especially the ones that are factual?

I'm the one whining here?

What’s pathetic is you go out of your way to “HOW DARE YOU!!!” Me because Someone not thinking Crosby is the most amazing player ever gets lost on you because your reality is no
Matter what, no matter who, Crosby is better and everyone better agree with me or else be branded a hater!!! No one is a hater, that’s just something you have to say to make yourself feel better and justified in your ways. Its weak, but that’s your choice.

This is all you bud, your the one getting personal and acting like I attacked you. Get over it and go bug someone else with that fanboy garbage. Cool?

No, the only pathetic thing here is how much you hate Crosby and how mad you get for someone else having the audacity to say he's good.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

Thanks for posting the stats. They are close but no one could generate offence quite like prime Crosby.

must be nice to be able to play with the likes of Malkin, Kessel, Gonchar, Letang, Staal etc..

 

[GreatGonzo]

You literally did not quote anyone in that post except for me. I specifically logged out of my account to verify that, too. You only quoted me.



I'm the one whining here?



No, the only pathetic thing here is how much you hate Crosby and how mad you get for someone else having the audacity to say he's good.

The original poster I was quoting was saying he was dominant defensively which is ridiculous. Being better than McDavid defensively doesn’t mean he was dominant. That’s just more over glorifying everything Crosby does and is.

Well yes you are. Your acting as if I came into your home and slapped your mother whole calling your dad rude names. I’m not the one who went into a full emotional attack because “HOW DARE YOU SAY THAT ABOUT CROSBY IS CLEARLY BETTER!!!!! HE DIDNT HAVE TO EVEN PLAY A FULL SEASON TO BE BETTER!!CROSBY IN 2012 HAD THE BEST 22 GAMES I HAVE EVER SEEEN!!!!! AND DEFINITELY BETTER THAN MCDAVID!!! IT DOESNT MATTER THAT THE GAMES PLAYED OBVIOUSLY IMPACTS CROSBYS NUMBERS DIFFERENTLY! IT WOULD BE THE SAME EVEN IF HE PLAYED 82 GAMES BECAUSE HES BETTER!!!! NOW AGREE WITH ME OR ELSE BE BRANDED A HATER! THATS WHAT I CALL PEOPLE WHO DONT AGREE WITH MY BIAS WAYS BECAUSE IM SO UNCOMFORTABLE IN MY OWN OPINIONS THAT I NEED EVERYONE TO VALIDATE HOW I FEEL!!!!!”

Keep convincing yourself of that bud, I’m not the one so wrapped up in Crosby’s jock that the lacking of any fresh air has taken a toll on your logic and overall thinking.

 

[GreatGonzo]

must be nice to be ale to play with the likes of Malkin, Kessel, Gonchar, Letang, Staal etc..

Shhhh! Your not supposed to mention them remember?! It hurts their argument to much and they get all angry and bitter. Crosby did it all himself while McDavid could never lead his team anywhere, now agree with them you salty “hater!”

 

[Merrrlin]

must be nice to be ale to play with the likes of Malkin, Kessel, Gonchar, Letang, Staal etc..

That certainly plays a role, but some of those early Penguins teams were horrendous.

the good news for McDavid is he is just starting his hockey career, lots of time to separate himself.

 

[Empoleon8771]

The original poster I was quoting was saying he was dominant defensively which is ridiculous. Being better than McDavid defensively doesn’t mean he was dominant. That’s just more over glorifying everything Crosby does and is.

But again, you responded to my post and quoted no one but me. You specifically replied to my post with that. I logged out to see if you responded to someone I had on my ignore list, but you didn't. You responded specifically to me.

Well yes you are. Your acting as if I came into your home and slapped your mother whole calling your dad rude names. I’m not the one who went into a full emotional attack because “HOW DARE YOU SAY THAT ABOUT CROSBY IS CLEARLY BETTER!!!!! HE DIDNT HAVE TO EVEN PLAY A FULL SEASON TO BE BETTER!!CROSBY IN 2012 HAD THE BEST 22 GAMES I HAVE EVER SEEEN!!!!! AND DEFINITELY BETTER THAN MCDAVID!!! IT DOESNT MATTER THAT THE GAMES PLAYED OBVIOUSLY IMPACTS CROSBYS NUMBERS DIFFERENTLY! IT WOULD BE THE SAME EVEN IF HE PLAYED 82 GAMES BECAUSE HES BETTER!!!! NOW AGREE WITH ME OR ELSE BE BRANDED A HATER! THATS WHAT I CALL PEOPLE WHO DONT AGREE WITH MY BIAS WAYS BECAUSE IM SO UNCOMFORTABLE IN MY OWN OPINIONS THAT I NEED EVERYONE TO VALIDATE HOW I FEEL!!!!!”

Keep convincing yourself of that bud, I’m not the one so wrapped up in Crosby’s jock that the lacking of any fresh air has taken a toll on your logic and overall thinking.

I like how you're so delusional where you think this is an accurate representation of what happened. Let's recap what actually happened:

1. I posted some analytics for McDavid and Crosby, saying "I don't see much of an argument for McDavid over Crosby analytically"
2. You start screeching in reply to me, with making bullcrap strawman arguments to try to change the arguments I was making. You flat out made up arguments that I didn't say to try and attack
3. You decided to call me a homer because I pointed out that I did not make any of those claims.

Like for real dude, go read through your posts in here and please tell me how you don't come off like a psychopath in here. I made a completely reasonable argument based on their analytics, and you decided to respond with crap like "GRACE PERIOD!!!" and "YOU THINK HE'S THE BEST BECAUSE OF 22 GAMES!!!" and "STOP SAYING CROSBY WAS AMAZING DEFENSIVELY!!!". You flat out made up stuff that I never said in reply to me, and then you acted like I was the one who was going insane and getting defensive. No, I'm calling out your **** because your posting ****. But yes, apparently calling out your crap strawman arguments is now being "wrapped up in Crosby's jock", not calling you out for being an idiot. And yes, I'll gladly take the infraction to call you an idiot.

must be nice to be able to play with the likes of Malkin, Kessel, Gonchar, Letang, Staal etc..

Those numbers:

1. Don't include Gonchar for the most part, because Gonchar did not play for the Penguins in all but 2009-2010.
2. Don't include Staal because Staal never played with Crosby.
3. Don't include Kessel because Kessel wasn't on the Penguins during this sample size.
4. Very sparingly include Malkin, because these are 5v5 numbers and Malkin and Crosby did not play much together at 5v5.

But outside of that, you're totally right.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

Those numbers:

1. Don't include Gonchar for the most part, because Gonchar did not play for the Penguins in all but 2009-2010.
2. Don't include Staal because Staal never played with Crosby.
3. Don't include Kessel because Kessel wasn't on the Penguins during this sample size.
4. Very sparingly include Malkin, because these are 5v5 numbers and Malkin and Crosby did not play much together at 5v5.

But outside of that, you're totally right.

then who does it include?

 

[Empoleon8771]

then who does it include?

I mean, you can google who was on the Penguins teams from 2009-2014 to get an answer to that question.

It's almost exclusively Kunitz-Crosby-Dupuis as Crosby's line. It does vary some because of various things (Kunitz playing with Malkin and Neal in 2012, Dupuis missing half the year in 2014, Guerin still being on the Penguins in 2010), but saying it was almost exclusively KCD is pretty accurate.

 

[GreatGonzo]

But again, you responded to my post and quoted no one but me. You specifically replied to my post with that. I logged out to see if you responded to someone I had on my ignore list, but you didn't. You responded specifically to me.



I like how you're so delusional where you think this is an accurate representation of what happened. Let's recap what actually happened:

1. I posted some analytics for McDavid and Crosby, saying "I don't see much of an argument for McDavid over Crosby analytically"
2. You start screeching in reply to me, with making bullcrap strawman arguments to try to change the arguments I was making. You flat out made up arguments that I didn't say to try and attack
3. You decided to call me a homer because I pointed out that I did not make any of those claims.

Like for real dude, go read through your posts in here and please tell me how you don't come off like a psychopath in here. I made a completely reasonable argument based on their analytics, and you decided to respond with crap like "GRACE PERIOD!!!" and "YOU THINK HE'S THE BEST BECAUSE OF 22 GAMES!!!" and "STOP SAYING CROSBY WAS AMAZING DEFENSIVELY!!!". You flat out made up stuff that I never said in reply to me, and then you acted like I was the one who was going insane and getting defensive. No, I'm calling out your **** because your posting ****. But yes, apparently calling out your crap strawman arguments is now being "wrapped up in Crosby's jock", not calling you out for being an idiot. And yes, I'll gladly take the infraction to call you an idiot.



Those numbers:

1. Don't include Gonchar for the most part, because Gonchar did not play for the Penguins in all but 2009-2010.
2. Don't include Staal because Staal never played with Crosby.
3. Don't include Kessel because Kessel wasn't on the Penguins during this sample size.
4. Very sparingly include Malkin, because these are 5v5 numbers and Malkin and Crosby did not play much together at 5v5.

But outside of that, you're totally right.

I was talking to a separate person about that and I simply lumped you into the same convo so I got confused myself. Regardless, there’s no need to continue on that obviously bias agenda.

But your still under the impression that McDavid playing 100 more games doesn’t matter and that Crosby’s seasons being so short and spaced out actually helps his stats when comparing

Oh no, your misunderstanding.....I was mocking your screeching and whining about how badly I was talking about your boy and how you feel the need to defend him even when your not right.

That 22 games is including in his “peak” so saying McDavid doesn’t hold up to Crosby’s peak, your suggesting that Those 22 games are superior to McDavids 82. It’s not hard to understand but your love for Crosby blinds you, which is why you have to call me a hater because that’s the only way your brain can comprehend someone not agreeing with you.

So your going to selective on who it does and doesn’t include to once again change the goal posts to benefit Crosby? Ok bud. Sure, let’s exclude everyone that helped Crosby produce and win and just say it was Crosby all along by himself.

 

[GreatGonzo]

I mean, you can google who was on the Penguins teams from 2009-2014 to get an answer to that question.

It's almost exclusively Kunitz-Crosby-Dupuis as Crosby's line. It does vary some because of various things (Kunitz playing with Malkin and Neal in 2012, Dupuis missing half the year in 2014, Guerin still being on the Penguins in 2010), but saying it was almost exclusively KCD is pretty accurate.

Why are linemates Brit discussed at all though? What does that have to do with anything?

 

[66-30-33]

Peak Crosby but if it came to peak Crosby vs peak McDavid I take McDavid because he is going to put up some beastly numbers even if he is overrated on the forums. I still remember the times people said he's better then Lemieux and just as good as Gretzky lmao!

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

must be nice to be able to play with the likes of Malkin, Kessel, Gonchar, Letang, Staal etc..

Crosby cheated? No wonder he did well. He was allowed to play with 5 other guys on the ice!

 

[GreatGonzo]

Crosby cheated? No wonder he did well. He was allowed to play with 5 other guys on the ice!

Weird how the other 5 guys don’t get mentioned often with the Pens accomplishments, yet Crosby gets credit for everything the Pens do one way or another.

It’s mentioned how Crosby has had inferior line mates compared to McDavid, yet Malkin gets left out of his contribution. It’s mentioned how Crosby is better because of playoff success, yet the fact that he had a much better team around him than McDavid has had gets left out. It’s mentioned that Crosby’s peak is better due to the “99 consecutive games he played” or 99 games in 3 years, spacing them out to small bulk sums, and how everything McDavid has accomplished doesn’t top Crosby’s amazing play during those 22, 36, and 41 game samples. It’s mentioned how Crosby “lead” his team to the playoffs by his second year, and finals by his third...yet players like Gonchar, Malkin, and Fleury get left out to make Crosby look like he carried a team of scrubs......

Weird huh?

 

[Future GOAT]

Weird how the other 5 guys don’t get mentioned often with the Pens accomplishments, yet Crosby gets credit for everything the Pens do one way or another.

It’s mentioned how Crosby has had inferior line mates compared to McDavid, yet Malkin gets left out of his contribution. It’s mentioned how Crosby is better because of playoff success, yet the fact that he had a much better team around him than McDavid has had gets left out. It’s mentioned that Crosby’s peak is better due to the “99 consecutive games he played” or 99 games in 3 years, spacing them out to small bulk sums, and how everything McDavid has accomplished doesn’t top Crosby’s amazing play during those 22, 36, and 41 game samples. It’s mentioned how Crosby “lead” his team to the playoffs by his second year, and finals by his third...yet players like Gonchar, Malkin, and Fleury get left out to make Crosby look like he carried a team of scrubs......

Weird huh?

People get insecure, what are you gonna do? I mean we all know it's only a matter of time until even these guys can't deny McDavid is better than Crosby. Scouts knew it, we know it, it's just going to take Crosby fans a bit longer to accept due to their bias.

 

[GreatGonzo]

People get insecure, what are you gonna do? I mean we all know it's only a matter of time until even these guys can't deny McDavid is better than Crosby. Scouts knew it, we know it, it's just going to take Crosby fans a bit longer to accept due to their bias.

The Crosby grace period is becoming more and more ridiculous. By this point, McDavid can achieve all Crosby has and more and they will still see him as superior.