Prospect Info: May 2024 Red Wings Prospect voting #4

[Frk It]

Huge Wallinder guy still, love the tools and think he will evolve. With that said at this point I am convinced Mazur is the third guy on a first or second line. He just shows up in all the right areas and is a complete pain in the ass with skill. He has first line upside to me so he is the pick.

Thoughts on Kasper?

 

[The Zermanator]

Huge Wallinder guy still, love the tools and think he will evolve. With that said at this point I am convinced Mazur is the third guy on a first or second line. He just shows up in all the right areas and is a complete pain in the ass with skill. He has first line upside to me so he is the pick.

I don't watch GR games so I stand to be corrected, but isn't Kasper basically this but better? I'm only stat-watching obviously, but he barely produced less than Mazur and he's 2 years younger (roughly the same points just played more games). He's already got an inch and probably 15-20 pounds on him, which isn't the be all end all but definitely matters at the NHL level, particularly with their playstyle. Was also his first year on NA ice this season while Mazur has played on it his entire career. Based on their respective ages and what they've accomplished so far at the AHL level, I think you gotta give the edge to the top-10 pick at this point.

But just debating between Kasper, Mazur, and Wallinder for our 4th best prospect when we already have 3 stars (soon to be in Edvinsson's case) all under 23 years old on the big club is a testament to the embarrassment of riches Yzerman has stocked up in terms of youth. The future is bright.

 

[JohanFranzenstein]

Aw shit, here we go again.

 

[norrisnick]

Thoughts on Kasper?

Mazur that's bigger, younger, better, and a center.

 

[Gniwder]

Huge Wallinder guy still, love the tools and think he will evolve. With that said at this point I am convinced Mazur is the third guy on a first or second line. He just shows up in all the right areas and is a complete pain in the ass with skill. He has first line upside to me so he is the pick.

When's the last time a kid scoring at 0.6 PPG pace in the AHL as a 22 year old wound up on the second line in the NHL, much less the top line?

I'm fairly certain Kasper will bulk up this summer, I still have doubts if Mazur can. At 22, he should be weighing more than 170 to begin with. He's 6' tall and the same weight as Czarnik.

You guys need to look at what prospects in the past did in GR, Mazur is on the same level of production as guys like Callahan, Emmerton, and Mursak.

 

[Crunchy]

When's the last time a kid scoring at 0.6 PPG pace in the AHL as a 22 year old wound up on the second line in the NHL, much less the top line?

Not sure if it's the most recent example, but I guessed Zach Hyman, and indeed after 4 years in college and in his (I believe) D+6 season he was just about 0.6 ppg in the AHL.

 

[OldnotDeadWings]

When's the last time a kid scoring at 0.6 PPG pace in the AHL as a 22 year old wound up on the second line in the NHL, much less the top line?

Alex Burrows was a 21yo ECHL rookie who scored .5 PPG, and as a 23yo AHL rookie scored 26 points in 72 games. He ended up on top line with the Sedins.

 

[ricky0034]

When's the last time a kid scoring at 0.6 PPG pace in the AHL as a 22 year old wound up on the second line in the NHL, much less the top line?

everyone's favorite Red Wings superstar Justin Abdelkader

 

[Pavels Dog]

When's the last time a kid scoring at 0.6 PPG pace in the AHL as a 22 year old wound up on the second line in the NHL, much less the top line?

JT Compher is a decent comparable. Slightly higher production (.73) but played less games. Patrick Sharp and Chandler Stephenson are two closer matches.
Keep in mind this is Mazur’s 21 year old season.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

When's the last time a kid scoring at 0.6 PPG pace in the AHL as a 22 year old wound up on the second line in the NHL, much less the top line?

I'm fairly certain Kasper will bulk up this summer, I still have doubts if Mazur can. At 22, he should be weighing more than 170 to begin with. He's 6' tall and the same weight as Czarnik.

You guys need to look at what prospects in the past did in GR, Mazur is on the same level of production as guys like Callahan, Emmerton, and Mursak.

Jake Guentzel, who in a way reminds me of Mazur. Carter Verhaeghe, Jonathan Marchessault to name a couple of guys with Yzerman history. Somewhat undersized players that consistently get better, have the necessary jam and scoring touch. This is the player type he reminds me of, people keep talking about Bertuzzi, one of the things I like about Mazur is his skating. We will see, Kasper plays a position and when you look at the depth chart where 2nd or 3rd line is the most likely outcome. I like his game a lot, but if he winds up a third line center and Mazur is riding shotgun with Larkin and Raymond finishing well...

Similarly I still believe Wallinder will eventually round out the top 4, we will see, he is one of our better trade chips. I like Kasper, I remain in the camp that doesn't see quite as much upside. I think he will be a very important player when we are winning, but he will likely be down the lineup some playing in a more substantial checking role. He reminds me a lot of Lars Eller. I hope for more but I am not as bullish on it. For me his high end point potential comes from being the netfront guy on the PP. I hope he can make that role his.

 

[DoMakc]

Jake Guentzel, who in a way reminds me of Mazur. Carter Verhaeghe, Jonathan Marchessault to name a couple of guys with Yzerman history. Somewhat undersized players that consistently get better, have the necessary jam and scoring touch. This is the player type he reminds me of, people keep talking about Bertuzzi, one of the things I like about Mazur is his skating. We will see, Kasper plays a position and when you look at the depth chart where 2nd or 3rd line is the most likely outcome. I like his game a lot, but if he winds up a third line center and Mazur is riding shotgun with Larkin and Raymond finishing well...

Similarly I still believe Wallinder will eventually round out the top 4, we will see, he is one of our better trade chips. I like Kasper, I remain in the camp that doesn't see quite as much upside. I think he will be a very important player when we are winning, but he will likely be down the lineup some playing in a more substantial checking role. He reminds me a lot of Lars Eller. I hope for more but I am not as bullish on it. For me his high end point potential comes from being the netfront guy on the PP. I hope he can make that role his.

I think the point is that Kasper might be as equipped to ride the shotgun with Larkin and Raymond as Mazur, but also able to play center, which Mazur does not.
To me playdriving center on a second line is worth more than a third wheel on a top line. Kesler> Holmström.

 

[Frk It]

I think the point is that Kasper might be as equipped to ride the shotgun with Larkin and Raymond as Mazur, but also able to play center, which Mazur does not.
To me playdriving center on a second line is worth more than a third wheel on a top line. Kesler> Holmström.

Is Kasper going to be a “play driver” at the center position in the NHL?

Guess that is the point of contention, here.

 

[Retire91]

edited...

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

Is Kasper going to be a “play driver” at the center position in the NHL?

Guess that is the point of contention, here.

Can someone please specifically define "play driver" for me?

 

[Our Lady Peace]

Can someone please specifically define "play driver" for me?

Comes down to two things IMO:

1. Anticipation of what your teammates are going to do/where they are going to be, and how the defense will react

2. Having the skillset of being able to distribute the puck to any linemate they are situated with at any speed of play

Play driver: John Tavares
Non play driver: Anders Lee

 

[OldnotDeadWings]

Comes down to two things IMO:

1. Anticipation of what your teammates are going to do/where they are going to be, and how the defense will react

2. Having the skillset of being able to distribute the puck to any linemate they are situated with at any speed of play

Play driver: John Tavares
Non play driver: Anders Lee

I get all that, but I'm starting to really dislike the term. "Play-driver" seems to cover way too much ground beyond a more accurate (as I understand its usage) but less-catchy label like "Positive Possession/Scoring Opportunity Influencer". I suppose it is generally used as the ability to dictate or orchestrate offensive possession, but Isn't the ability to keep opposing lines from dictating play, in its own way dictating play? Why aren't good offensive defensemen described as "play-drivers"? Or maybe they are and I haven't noticed. If you've got a Makar or Hughes on the ice, do you really need a forward "play-driver" on the ice with him? Maybe it's just a cute but irrelevant way of describing a team's need for more skill.

It just seems that "play-driver" is a buzzword for a forward's ability to hang onto the puck, regardless of how effective it is and without taking into account the net value of a player's ability to both create and prevent scoring opportunities.

 

[NickH8]

I get all that, but I'm starting to really dislike the term. "Play-driver" seems to cover way too much ground beyond a more accurate (as I understand its usage) but less-catchy label like "Positive Possession/Scoring Opportunity Influencer". I suppose it is generally used as the ability to dictate or orchestrate offensive possession, but Isn't the ability to keep opposing lines from dictating play, in its own way dictating play? Why aren't good offensive defensemen described as "play-drivers"? Or maybe they are and I haven't noticed. If you've got a Makar or Hughes on the ice, do you really need a forward "play-driver" on the ice with him? Maybe it's just a cute but irrelevant way of describing a team's need for more skill.

It just seems that "play-driver" is a buzzword for a forward's ability to hang onto the puck, regardless of how effective it is and without taking into account the net value of a player's ability to both create and prevent scoring opportunities.

You put into words what I've been thinking for a minute lol.

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

I get all that, but I'm starting to really dislike the term. "Play-driver" seems to cover way too much ground beyond a more accurate (as I understand its usage) but less-catchy label like "Positive Possession/Scoring Opportunity Influencer". I suppose it is generally used as the ability to dictate or orchestrate offensive possession, but Isn't the ability to keep opposing lines from dictating play, in its own way dictating play? Why aren't good offensive defensemen described as "play-drivers"? Or maybe they are and I haven't noticed. If you've got a Makar or Hughes on the ice, do you really need a forward "play-driver" on the ice with him? Maybe it's just a cute but irrelevant way of describing a team's need for more skill.

It just seems that "play-driver" is a buzzword for a forward's ability to hang onto the puck, regardless of how effective it is and without taking into account the net value of a player's ability to both create and prevent scoring opportunities.

I sense that this is what nine of ten people mean when they use the phrase. Oddly enough, I can envision someone who meets OLP's definition who really doesn't need the puck all that much.

 

[Our Lady Peace]

I get all that, but I'm starting to really dislike the term. "Play-driver" seems to cover way too much ground beyond a more accurate (as I understand its usage) but less-catchy label like "Positive Possession/Scoring Opportunity Influencer". I suppose it is generally used as the ability to dictate or orchestrate offensive possession, but Isn't the ability to keep opposing lines from dictating play, in its own way dictating play? Why aren't good offensive defensemen described as "play-drivers"? Or maybe they are and I haven't noticed. If you've got a Makar or Hughes on the ice, do you really need a forward "play-driver" on the ice with him? Maybe it's just a cute but irrelevant way of describing a team's need for more skill.

It just seems that "play-driver" is a buzzword for a forward's ability to hang onto the puck, regardless of how effective it is and without taking into account the net value of a player's ability to both create and prevent scoring opportunities.

Ya I see what you're saying. More/less it's just another a nebulous term - not overly wordy but not really descriptive either

 

[OldnotDeadWings]

I sense that this is what nine of ten people mean when they use the phrase. Oddly enough, I can envision someone who meets OLP's definition who really doesn't need the puck all that much.

Maybe I am having a Senior's moment, but I don't know what OLP means lol. As for the virtues of not needing the puck, the favorite phrase of my first coach when I was actually old enough to start learning things was, "Move the puck!" When he said it, you knew you were already guilty of hogging it. .

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

Is Kasper going to be a “play driver” at the center position in the NHL?

Guess that is the point of contention, here.

Lower in the lineup? I think so. I don't see Kasper being a worse center than JT Compher or JG Pageau. Those guys are puck transporters from the 3rd line. Compher doesn't drive as much on the 2nd. That was delegated to Kane or DeBrincat.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

Can someone please specifically define "play driver" for me?

My definition may differ than others, but here it is:

A player that is able to positively influence possession by hanging onto the puck that statistically increases a team's possession time in zone, CF/Fenwick, xGF and decreases xGA. This player elevates the abilities of the line they are on as a whole. The play driver makes the opponent react and picks apart that team's systems.

There are 3 categories of "play driver" that I think are most prevalent.

Grinder: This play driver that is able to keep possession by working the puck along the half-walls and behind the net, killing time in the opponents zone, killing the clock and making the opponent waste a shift trying to get the puck back. Rasmussen/Copp/Fischer were pretty solid as a defensive unit when they got possession in the other team's zone during their hot streak in january/february. I think this is a good example of grinders driving play in a positive way. Mazur looks to be at worst a + level grinder to me. That's what Hyman was, and look at where he is now.

Transporter: The kind of play driver that, when given the puck, can turn it into an instant zone entry. Someone that can turn defense into an offensive rush and move the puck out of their zone to the opponents quickly, or the kind of guy that can quarterback the powerplay. Our best example of that on the team is Larkin. Danielson and Kasper are guys I would also put in this category from our prospect pool. Edvinsson may also fall into this category eventually. This kind of player can rag the puck and forces opponents to wall up around their net.

Creator: This kind of player often works best when paired with a transporter. Guys that are the first option for a give and go in the offensive zone, that can manipulate opposing defenses. Breaking them down to open up shooting or passing lanes. Patrick Kane and Lucas Raymond are this kind of play driver. Berggren does this to a lesser extent. Seider also does this from the point but has been more conservative than I'd like the last two seasons. (I blame deployment for this.)

 

[izlez]

My definition may differ than others, but here it is:

A player that is able to positively influence possession by hanging onto the puck that statistically increases a team's possession time in zone, CF/Fenwick, xGF and decreases xGA. This player elevates the abilities of the line they are on as a whole. The play driver makes the opponent react and picks apart that team's systems.

There are 3 categories of "play driver" that I think are most prevalent.

Grinder: This play driver that is able to keep possession by working the puck along the half-walls and behind the net, killing time in the opponents zone, killing the clock and making the opponent waste a shift trying to get the puck back. Rasmussen/Copp/Fischer were pretty solid as a defensive unit when they got possession in the other team's zone during their hot streak in january/february. I think this is a good example of grinders driving play in a positive way. Mazur looks to be at worst a + level grinder to me. That's what Hyman was, and look at where he is now.

Transporter: The kind of play driver that, when given the puck, can turn it into an instant zone entry. Someone that can turn defense into an offensive rush and move the puck out of their zone to the opponents quickly, or the kind of guy that can quarterback the powerplay. Our best example of that on the team is Larkin. Danielson and Kasper are guys I would also put in this category from our prospect pool. Edvinsson may also fall into this category eventually. This kind of player can rag the puck and forces opponents to wall up around their net.

Creator: This kind of player often works best when paired with a transporter. Guys that are the first option for a give and go in the offensive zone, that can manipulate opposing defenses. Breaking them down to open up shooting or passing lanes. Patrick Kane and Lucas Raymond are this kind of play driver. Berggren does this to a lesser extent. Seider also does this from the point but has been more conservative than I'd like the last two seasons. (I blame deployment for this.)

This probably comes off as dickish, and I appreciate you giving a long thought out answer to the question. But, man, that definition covers a lot of ground and I’m just going to stick with we need “good hockey players” understanding that “good hockey players” come in all shapes and sizes with a variety of skill sets instead of using the new buzzword