Marner vs. Hischier

[1specter]

Some random star from one of the other 30 teams has a string of 20 great games or so, and suddenly is pitted in a poll against a leaf counter part. Leaf players win polls when it's lopsided to hell and when the argument is even relatively close, it's ALWAYS the non leaf player who wins.

ding ding ding!

 

[Amadeus]

Nico Hischier is winning this poll?

 

[koyvoo]

Here's how it works;

Some random star from one of the other 30 teams has a string of 20 great games or so, and suddenly is pitted in a poll against a leaf counter part. Leaf players win polls when it's lopsided to hell and when the argument is even relatively close, it's ALWAYS the non leaf player who wins.

It's why I don't take any of this serious at all. And you can see that in how ridiculous my reasoning for my votes even in this old poll.

Tavaras was a top 5 center in a poll not 6 months before he bolted to Toronto. Then he became a fringe top 15.

I've already exposed the fallacy in logic in voting Dahlin over Rielly. To vote Dahlin you need to project his future potential, but you are not allowed project Rielly's year end numbers because if you do, then he will equal what you are likely to project for Dahlin's future and if you do that...then you have to concede that Rielly is currently what Dahlin hopes to become. Once you do that...the vote becomes a non argument.

At anyrate...I'm not suprised. I get the leaf hate. I enjoy it actually. Makes me giggle.

That doesn’t even begin to explain why it’s perc that it’s only because of leaf hate, except for when they win a poll.

I was accused of being a leaf hater for voting Pettersson over Matthews by leaf fans, then accused of being a Canucks hater for voting Marner over Boeser and Nylander over Horvat.

Which one am I? The point is that when a poll goes someone’s way, the thought is “well, they only voted our way because it’s too obvious”, while a poll doesn’t go a persons way the thought is “they’re just hating on us”

It’s impossible to be both.

You might say I voted Pettersson over Matthews because I hate the leafs. But why didn’t I vote against them in the other two polls?

Canucks fans would feel the opposite.

It’s only because I hate. But I hate abs love different teams on different days, often contradicting each other? It’s only based from emotional rather than logical deduction.

Why can’t it just be that people have different opinions?

 

[1specter]

But why that one? Why would haters make themselves look foolish to jab at leaf fans there, but not every poll then?

Pretty simple really. Matthews had a hot start, and the Leafs came flying out of the gate. Seeing Leaf news everywhere agitated Leaf haters even more, and then when Matthews got injured they celebrated and decided to rub some salt in the wound. Couple that with Petersson having a ridiculously hot start of his own, and the Canucks fanbase being insufferable themselves, and you've got a perfect storm. Same thing happened last year with Boeser and Horvat apparently being 'way' better than Marner and Nylander and Boeser also being better than Matthews apparently.

 

[koyvoo]

Pretty simple really. Matthews had a hot start, and the Leafs came flying out of the gate. Seeing Leaf news everywhere agitated Leaf haters even more, and then when Matthews got injured they celebrated and decided to rub some salt in the wound. Couple that with Petersson having a ridiculously hot start of his own, and the Canucks fanbase being insufferable themselves, and you've got a perfect storm. Same thing happened last year with Boeser and Horvat apparently being 'way' better than Marner and Nylander and Boeser also being better than Matthews apparently.

Ok, so I voted Pettersson over Matthews but I voted Nylander over Horvat and Marner over Boeser.

Who do I “hate”. Because both fanbases said I voted on all those polls only to take a jab at one of their fanbases.

I understand here it’s a massive problem, but not everyone has this teenage thing of compromising their credibility by stating something that they don’t believe, that they feel is stupid even, just to take a shot at a fanbase.

Teens do that. People who run on emotion rather than logic do that. Here on HFBoards it might be a majority, but most people actually aren’t like that.

 

[koyvoo]

Basically it’s this-

If someone would vote in favour of every leaf in every poll because it’s their favourite team, you have zero credibility.

If someone votes against every leaf in every poll because they hate the leafs, they too have zero credibility.

I would hate to present myself as either one of those.

 

[1specter]

Ok, so I voted Pettersson over Matthews but I voted Nylander over Horvat and Marner over Boeser.

Who do I “hate”. Because both fanbases said I voted on all those polls only to take a jab at one of their fanbases.

I understand here it’s a massive problem, but not everyone has this teenage thing of compromising their credibility by stating something that they don’t believe, that they feel is stupid even, just to take a shot at a fanbase.

Teens do that. People who run on emotion rather than logic do that. Here on HFBoards it might be a majority, but most people actually aren’t like that.

You're the exception, not the rule. You have to admit though Pettersson winning was kinda sad. I mean the kid has already slowed down and people picked him over a guy who scored 40 goals right out of his draft year and one of a select few rookies in NHL history to eclipse 40 as a rookie.

 

[1specter]

Basically it’s this-

If someone would vote in favour of every leaf in every poll because it’s their favourite team, you have zero credibility.

If someone votes against every leaf in every poll because they hate thevleafs, they too have zero credibility.

I would hate to present myself as either one of those.

Again, you're one of the few here. Props to you for having a brain and some maturity.

 

[koyvoo]

You're the exception, not the rule. You have to admit though Pettersson winning was kinda sad. I mean the kid has already slowed down and people picked him over a guy who scored 40 goals right out of his draft year and one of a select few rookies in NHL history to eclipse 40 as a rookie.

It’s sad if those votes were made out of emotion. It’s not sad if those votes were made from poor or faulty analysis. That happens.

 

[rambo97]

This is Marner easily

 

[ViewsFromThe6ix]

Nico winning this is HF at it's finest.

dude HF said Elias Pettersson is better than Auston Matthews 15 games into his career

 

[The Podium]

Ok, so I voted Pettersson over Matthews but I voted Nylander over Horvat and Marner over Boeser.

Who do I “hate”. Because both fanbases said I voted on all those polls only to take a jab at one of their fanbases.

I understand here it’s a massive problem, but not everyone has this teenage thing of compromising their credibility by stating something that they don’t believe, that they feel is stupid even, just to take a shot at a fanbase.

Teens do that. People who run on emotion rather than logic do that. Here on HFBoards it might be a majority, but most people actually aren’t like that.

You hate Americans and are pro sweden

 

[habbyboolin]

Nico Hischier is winning this poll?

It was done in April, at the end of a fantastic rookie season from Hischier. Do the poll again and Marner runs away with it.

 

[Phenomenon13]

I don't think it was unusual to think Hischier would be better after last season. The guy was 18 and produced 52points without optimal utilization. He played center, has a good defensive game (from what I've heard) and was seen to have immense potential (as shown by first overall selection). I read some of these arguments and it seems they produced similarly at even strength but ppp was the difference? Hischier was only a rookie so projections to his career were weighed more heavily than for Marner who had an extra season under him.

I don't necessarily agree with all their points but I can understand their argument. This season Marner has taken his game to another level with Tavares and Hischier has yet to do that with Hall so the poll looks poor in hindsight. Polling imo is more affected by recency bias than anything. More than "team hate" and "player hate". I didn't vote in the poll so take that for what's it's worth

 

[Drytoast]

That doesn’t even begin to explain why it’s perc that it’s only because of leaf hate, except for when they win a poll.

I was accused of being a leaf hater for voting Pettersson over Matthews by leaf fans, then accused of being a Canucks hater for voting Marner over Boeser and Nylander over Horvat.

Which one am I? The point is that when a poll goes someone’s way, the thought is “well, they only voted our way because it’s too obvious”, while a poll doesn’t go a persons way the thought is “they’re just hating on us”

It’s impossible to be both.

You might say I voted Pettersson over Matthews because I hate the leafs. But why didn’t I vote against them in the other two polls?

Canucks fans would feel the opposite.

It’s only because I hate. But I hate abs love different teams on different days, often contradicting each other? It’s only based from emotional rather than logical deduction.

Why can’t it just be that people have different opinions?

Well I would say you are just one vote.

But many times these very arguable polls tend to sway 70/30 against the Leaf players. When really the scores should be closer together.

And the rules for how we grade a Leaf player change to that of how we grade a non leaf player.

For example. In that other pole Matthews/Reilly vs Eichle/Dahlin the hypocracy that's all over that thread is that we are allowed to project Dhalin's future potential but we can't project Rielly's. Even though Rielly has done nothing but steadily improve every year and has taken a big step this year.

Reilly is currently looking at a 60-70 point season, is a +9, logs hard minutes and is a key point man on the PP. (how he gets a ton of his points)

He essentially RIGHT NOW, what we are projecting Dahlin to be. But clearly Dahlin is going to be better than Rielly. So I guess we are now suggesting that he's going to be greater than a 70 point defence man. We are gifting him that based off of potential.

We don't DARE gift Rielly that. Because? Cause he wasn't drafted first over all? Cause he's a Leaf? Cause he hasn't shown he could become that? Has Dahlin? Dahlin looks great for sure. Looks like he's gonna be a Rielly for sure. But we find that insulting to say because? Is it because to suggest that, we are now projecting a 70 point season for Rielly this year? Is that wrong? Why? Why can't you project a 70 point season for Rielly but we can for Dahlin?

Oh right! Double standard.

Rielly is currently what Dhalin strives to become. That's just facts based off of the numbers Rielly is currently putting up right now. People hate to say that because we've grown comfy on these boards with labeling Rielly a fringe 1d. And until he wins the norris he will always be a fringe 1d. So how dare we compare him to such a young raw talent in Dahlin.

So that's how we get a "Dahlin > Rielly AINEC" comments...which make me giggle. Either you are that stupid or your troll game is weak.

And this is just the most recent double standard I can directly point too. You see these idiotic non leaf vs leaf polls at least 3 times a week. I've very quickly learned not to take stock in them outside of gaining more respect for just how great the Leaf hate is around here.

 

[135ace]

I don't think it was unusual to think Hischier would be better after last season. The guy was 18 and produced 52points without optimal utilization. He played center, has a good defensive game (from what I've heard) and was seen to have immense potential (as shown by first overall selection). I read some of these arguments and it seems they produced similarly at even strength but ppp was the difference? Hischier was only a rookie so projections to his career were weighed more heavily than for Marner who had an extra season under him.

I don't necessarily agree with all their points but I can understand their argument. This season Marner has taken his game to another level with Tavares and Hischier has yet to do that with Hall so the poll looks poor in hindsight. Polling imo is more affected by recency bias than anything. More than "team hate" and "player hate". I didn't vote in the poll so take that for what's it's worth

People freak out over the stupidest things. As you detailed it made plenty of sense to have Nico over Marner last April. Nico's D+1 was more impressive than Marner's D+2 in many ways and Marner was coming of a good, but unspectacular D+3. This year he's exploded and now all the Leafs homers are upset, but the initial poll result wasn't that crazy.
EP over Matthews makes no sense and didn't at the time of the poll, but this initial poll wasn't bad at all.

 

[IPS]

On topic of the poll: Nico's got a decent defensive game, but it's nowhere near as good as the rabid haters in this thread want you to believe.

Marner has a vastly higher PPG thus far in their careers and is clearly on another level offensively. I'd like to think of this like a Ryan O'Reilly vs Patrick Kane poll: sure, ROR is good two-way and plays center, but nobody in the right mind takes him over Kane. Exact same thing applies to Marner vs Hischier.

You're delusional if you think that's an accurate comparison.

Am I still delusional for thinking this is an accurate comparison? The haters made a massive mistake not giving Marner his respect.

 

[Nocashstyle]

Am I still delusional for thinking this is an accurate comparison? The haters made a massive mistake not giving Marner his respect.

Yes, you’re still significantly downplaying Hischier’s offensive ceiling. Any other questions?

 

[The Winter Soldier]

It was done in April, at the end of a fantastic rookie season from Hischier. Do the poll again and Marner runs away with it.

In addition to what you posted. Hischier is a D+2 player. Marner is in his D+4. How about we do this poll when he is 21 as Marner is, and not 19 presently.

 

[JetsWillFly4Ever]

Well I would say you are just one vote.

But many times these very arguable polls tend to sway 70/30 against the Leaf players. When really the scores should be closer together.

And the rules for how we grade a Leaf player change to that of how we grade a non leaf player.

For example. In that other pole Matthews/Reilly vs Eichle/Dahlin the hypocracy that's all over that thread is that we are allowed to project Dhalin's future potential but we can't project Rielly's. Even though Rielly has done nothing but steadily improve every year and has taken a big step this year.

Reilly is currently looking at a 60-70 point season, is a +9, logs hard minutes and is a key point man on the PP. (how he gets a ton of his points)

He essentially RIGHT NOW, what we are projecting Dahlin to be. But clearly Dahlin is going to be better than Rielly. So I guess we are now suggesting that he's going to be greater than a 70 point defence man. We are gifting him that based off of potential.

We don't DARE gift Rielly that. Because? Cause he wasn't drafted first over all? Cause he's a Leaf? Cause he hasn't shown he could become that? Has Dahlin? Dahlin looks great for sure. Looks like he's gonna be a Rielly for sure. But we find that insulting to say because? Is it because to suggest that, we are now projecting a 70 point season for Rielly this year? Is that wrong? Why? Why can't you project a 70 point season for Rielly but we can for Dahlin?

Oh right! Double standard.

Rielly is currently what Dhalin strives to become. That's just facts based off of the numbers Rielly is currently putting up right now. People hate to say that because we've grown comfy on these boards with labeling Rielly a fringe 1d. And until he wins the norris he will always be a fringe 1d. So how dare we compare him to such a young raw talent in Dahlin.

So that's how we get a "Dahlin > Rielly AINEC" comments...which make me giggle. Either you are that stupid or your troll game is weak.

And this is just the most recent double standard I can directly point too. You see these idiotic non leaf vs leaf polls at least 3 times a week. I've very quickly learned not to take stock in them outside of gaining more respect for just how great the Leaf hate is around here.

I still think people project Dahlin's ceiling to be higher than Rielly's, although with a lot more uncertainty. If he ends up only as good as Rielly I would see it as a slight, but not large disappointment.

I didn't vote in that poll, too close to call, don't know enough about Dahlin yet, but I wouldn't fault anyone for voting for either.

 

[Drytoast]

I still think people project Dahlin's ceiling to be higher than Rielly's, although with a lot more uncertainty. If he ends up only as good as Rielly I would see it as a slight, but not large disappointment.

I didn't vote in that poll, too close to call, don't know enough about Dahlin yet, but I wouldn't fault anyone for voting for either.

Rielly is a 24 year old who is currently sitting tops of every defender in the league? How do we dare assume his cieling considering he's constantly improved and is now at the head of the pack?

Why do we get to automatically assume Dhalin's cieling?

One guy is currently doing what we project the other kid to do. It baffles me.

 

[IPS]

In addition to what you posted. Hischier is a D+2 player. Marner is in his D+4. How about we do this poll when he is 21 as Marner is, and not 19 presently.

Hischier will never be capable of doing what Marner is doing now.

Yes, you’re still significantly downplaying Hischier’s offensive ceiling. Any other questions?

What's supposed to be his ceiling? I honestly don't see him breaking a PPG in his career.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

People freak out over the stupidest things. As you detailed it made plenty of sense to have Nico over Marner last April. Nico's D+1 was more impressive than Marner's D+2 in many ways and Marner was coming of a good, but unspectacular D+3. This year he's exploded and now all the Leafs homers are upset, but the initial poll result wasn't that crazy.
EP over Matthews makes no sense and didn't at the time of the poll, but this initial poll wasn't bad at all.

Again, he's almost at 100 PTS in 100 GP and only a bit better than 20 of those are this year.

 

[JetsWillFly4Ever]

Rielly is a 24 year old who is currently sitting tops of every defender in the league? How do we dare assume his cieling considering he's constantly improved and is now at the head of the pack?

Why do we get to automatically assume Dhalin's cieling?

One guy is currently doing what we project the other kid to do. It baffles me.

Rielly's rocking an OIS% of 14.1 compared to his 8.7 for his career. He's also only what I would consider good defensively, not great (negative corsi rel this season, 49.4 corsi for but does this against top competition). He's also 24 and probably in his peak, or at least closer to it.

Dahlin was a 1st overall pick who is playing well in his 18 year old season (better possession numbers than Rielly but much, much easier competition), he is ahead of where Rielly was at the same age. There is certainly an argument that he has a higher ceiling.

 

[authentic]

Old thread?