Prospect Info: Marlies & Prospect Discussion

[VanW27]

Minten may top out as a great 3C but not the kind you can find for cheap in free agency. He’ll be a 3C that you can match up against the other team’s top players and when one of our top centers get injured you are comfortable sliding him up the line up. That is someone I wish we had when Tavares went down in the Habs series.

I get the sentiment, but in that specific example Kerfoot gave us everything you could have asked for as a 3C stepping into the 2C slot.

Unfortunately, as has been the case in each of our Playoff series losses from then on, it's our #1C who didn't show up (along with his #1RW running mate).

 

[WTFMAN99]

London up 2-0 over Flint right now, no points for Cowan but playing well, end of the 2nd.

 

[Namikaze Minato]

Empty netter for Cowboy.

 

[AuraSphere]

Minten may top out as a great 3C but not the kind you can find for cheap in free agency. He’ll be a 3C that you can match up against the other team’s top players and when one of our top centers get injured you are comfortable sliding him up the line up. That is someone I wish we had when Tavares went down in the Habs series.

That would be the Danault type of player - which it's highly doubtful Minten would become. Can always hope tho

 

[Kiwi]

If Minten can do something well he's going to be useful

If all he's good for is winning draws and defending he's useful, especially if he can play on the PK

If he needs a winger or two to drive play for him while he knocks in the odd goal 5v5 he's still useful

He's going to be dirt cheap for quite some time so that's also useful

Get him on the Marlies and if he's still not showing a ton of offense start developing him as a cheap replacement for Kampf

That's also useful

 

[darrylsittler27]

Minten may top out as a great 3C but not the kind you can find for cheap in free agency. He’ll be a 3C that you can match up against the other team’s top players and when one of our top centers get injured you are comfortable sliding him up the line up. That is someone I wish we had when Tavares went down in the Habs series.

And we still need one more good C. We are abysmal at that position. If Mathews ever gets injured we are toast.We are ranked 28th with no picks next year.

 

[WTFMAN99]

And we still need one more good C. We are abysmal at that position. If Mathews ever gets injured we are toast.We are ranked 28th with no picks next year.

Probably a big reason to go for a guy like Luchanko if he's on the board.

IF he's not, there are a few RD in our range...

You always always always need good C and especially RD. I wouldn't mind grabbing a great LD whenever I could but they're more commonly available.

 

[ULF_55]

That would be the Danault type of player - which it's highly doubtful Minten would become. Can always hope tho

I think we have to look back at Danault's development.

The player he is today isn't the player he was 5 years ago.

 

[AlienWorkShop]

I'm pretty sure Minten will make the NHL, but I think there's a higher risk that he ends up a 4th liner than we'd like to admit. I just don't see the offensive potential. He may end up a darn effective 4th liner, which is still valuable, and also need to remember he's 'only' a 2nd rounder, so getting any sort of NHLer out of that pick is a decent outcome.

With that in mind, amid the 'do we trade Cowan, Minten, or the 1st rounder?' debate, Minten was the one I was most comfortable trading (and only a trade with term, e.g., Muzzin/McCabe-type pickups; I'm ok with Tre staying pat if such a deal wasn't out there).

When he made the team out of camp, that seemed to create some top-6 potential hype (perhaps more media/fan-fuelled), and I wondered if that meant we could maybe 'sell-high' if he's (mistakenly) considered a blue-chipper, but that market may not have been out there, and I suspect the Leafs brass are pretty high on him themselves.

 

[darrylsittler27]

I'm pretty sure Minten will make the NHL, but I think there's a higher risk that he ends up a 4th liner than we'd like to admit. I just don't see the offensive potential. He may end up a darn effective 4th liner, which is still valuable, and also need to remember he's 'only' a 2nd rounder, so getting any sort of NHLer out of that pick is a decent outcome.

With that in mind, amid the 'do we trade Cowan, Minten, or the 1st rounder?' debate, Minten was the one I was most comfortable trading (and only a trade with term, e.g., Muzzin/McCabe-type pickups; I'm ok with Tre staying pat if such a deal wasn't out there).

When he made the team out of camp, that seemed to create some top-6 potential hype (perhaps more media/fan-fuelled), and I wondered if that meant we could maybe 'sell-high' if he's (mistakenly) considered a blue-chipper, but that market may not have been out there, and I suspect the Leafs brass are pretty high on him themselves.

There is no market for Minten. We over rate our prospects. Right now we are ranked 28th but our fans think we have a good pool.With no picks next year we will soon be the worst in the NHL. If we hadn't traded Sandin and got Cowan we are dead last. Our players are fringe NHL ers outside Cowan. The evidence suggest we draft very poorly and get players later for a reason, no one wants those guys. 4th line C, 6 and 7 dmen if that. Every team has those and they are easy to pick up. Look at this way..If we take out Cowan not one player would get more than a second rounder. It also means we are hand tied next TD.

 

[ULF_55]

The NHL’s Best Farm Systems Ranked - 2023-24 Midseason Update - The Hockey Writers Editor's Choice Latest News, Analysis & More

Just like the NHL clubs, their prospect pools are all at different stages. This piece will take a look at every NHL farm system ranking.

thehockeywriters.com

23. Toronto Maple Leafs​

Previous Ranking: 23

Top Five Prospects: Fraser Minten, Topi Niemela, Nikita Grebyonkin, Dennis Hildeby, Easton Cowan

The Toronto Maple Leafs are firmly within their competitive window so it would be a shock to see them land much higher on this list since they’ve traded several high picks in recent years. Matthew Knies is now a full time NHL player (big surprise) but their ranking didn’t take much of a hit because of the positive development of guys like Fraser Minten and Easton Cowan.

While neither of these prospects had inspiring performances for Team Canada at the recent World Juniors, a five-game sample size with new coaches, teammates, and in a new country is not as valuable as their league play in the CHL this year which has been nothing but encouraging. Minten is looking like he has the potential to be a good third-line center for the Maple Leafs and Cowan has already made Toronto look really savvy for picking him up in the first round. If he keeps it up, then Cowan will reach a new career high in points in less than half as many games, so his offensive touch is certainly going in the right direction.

 

[Judas Tavares]

I think we as devoted prospect following fans overrate out prospects. As do some bloggers, who you can see are in love with prospect #13 "if he improves this element, he will be the steal of the system" type of thing.

But, I think it gets underrated by mainstream media looking to create a doom and gloom narrative. "There's just Cowan and Minten and nothing else" is what I hear a lot. That is also not true.

It's somewhere in between both extremes, maybe closer to the doom and gloom side but it isn't that bad.

The issue is, prospect coverage since the 2003 draft has created a mentality where if they aren't top 6/top 4 and almost point-per-game players, they are, well not a bust, but not really a useful player thus not a great prospect. A bit of a pissing match of who has the biggest stones.

If we were the San Jose Sharks and our top prospects were Cowan and Minten, ya there's a bit of a problem there. But this is a team who has had some incredible blue chippers graduate and become NHL stars in their 20s. While more blue chippers would be nice, it's not necessarily needed nor realistic based on being a contender.

Contributing players can still be considered good/useful prospects for this team based on where they are in their competitive era. The Mintens of the world have more use to this team than a rebuilding team void of talent, and that is great. Keep Minten and make proper use of him. This team is always searching for a good bottom 6 centre and using assets to acquire them. Well lookie here, there is one that can be homegrown!

McMann, Robertson, Holmberg. Not blue chips. Never were. Doesn't matter. Contributing. They are NHL players. Maybe limited, but they are NHL players. That is great. Keep churning those out.

I look at Cowan, Minten, Niemela, Grebyonkin, Tverberg, Hildeby, Chadwick and see players who could contribute to this team. I didn't list 13 darkhorses. But it's not dire either.

/rant

 

[Joe n]

There is no market for Minten. We over rate our prospects. Right now we are ranked 28th but our fans think we have a good pool.With no picks next year we will soon be the worst in the NHL. If we hadn't traded Sandin and got Cowan we are dead last. Our players are fringe NHL ers outside Cowan. The evidence suggest we draft very poorly and get players later for a reason, no one wants those guys. 4th line C, 6 and 7 dmen if that. Every team has those and they are easy to pick up. Look at this way..If we take out Cowan not one player would get more than a second rounder. It also means we are hand tied next TD.

Considering how few picks the Leafs have over the last few years they have actually done a good job. And if you think other teams late round picks will magically become stars then I don't know what to say. If anyone outside the first round becomes a regular NHL player that's a win.

 

[ULF_55]

I think we as devoted prospect following fans overrate out prospects. As do some bloggers, who you can see are in love with prospect #13 "if he improves this element, he will be the steal of the system" type of thing.

...

McMann, Robertson, Holmberg. Not blue chips. Never were. Doesn't matter. Contributing. They are NHL players. Maybe limited, but they are NHL players. That is great. Keep churning those out.

I look at Cowan, Minten, Niemela, Grebyonkin, Tverberg, Hildeby, Chadwick and see players who could contribute to this team. I didn't list 13 darkhorses. But it's not dire either.

/rant

It seems some people want the team to be a bottom feeder with cornerstone prospects.

they've already got one youtube monty python - Google Suche

Next season, Matthews and marner will be 27, Nylander 28.
Forward cornerstone is set for the next several years.

We can all agree that they are missing those cornerstones for the defense.
Perhaps the option is to use keystones for the defense.

Draft, acquire keystones to hold all the defense together, while the cornerstone forwards direct the charge.

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

I think we as devoted prospect following fans overrate out prospects. As do some bloggers, who you can see are in love with prospect #13 "if he improves this element, he will be the steal of the system" type of thing.

But, I think it gets underrated by mainstream media looking to create a doom and gloom narrative. "There's just Cowan and Minten and nothing else" is what I hear a lot. That is also not true.

It's somewhere in between both extremes, maybe closer to the doom and gloom side but it isn't that bad.

The issue is, prospect coverage since the 2003 draft has created a mentality where if they aren't top 6/top 4 and almost point-per-game players, they are, well not a bust, but not really a useful player thus not a great prospect. A bit of a pissing match of who has the biggest stones.

If we were the San Jose Sharks and our top prospects were Cowan and Minten, ya there's a bit of a problem there. But this is a team who has had some incredible blue chippers graduate and become NHL stars in their 20s. While more blue chippers would be nice, it's not necessarily needed nor realistic based on being a contender.

Contributing players can still be considered good/useful prospects for this team based on where they are in their competitive era. The Mintens of the world have more use to this team than a rebuilding team void of talent, and that is great. Keep Minten and make proper use of him. This team is always searching for a good bottom 6 centre and using assets to acquire them. Well lookie here, there is one that can be homegrown!

McMann, Robertson, Holmberg. Not blue chips. Never were. Doesn't matter. Contributing. They are NHL players. Maybe limited, but they are NHL players. That is great. Keep churning those out.

I look at Cowan, Minten, Niemela, Grebyonkin, Tverberg, Hildeby, Chadwick and see players who could contribute to this team. I didn't list 13 darkhorses. But it's not dire either.

/rant

Exactly. Posting that we are ranked near bottom of the league for prospect pools is kind of a moot point as we are expected to, being a top 10 team. Of course we aren't going to have a top 10-15 pool. We aren't drafting high.

I don't put much stock into some of the rankings anyways. I've seen some lists that don't even have Grebenkin as a top 5 prospect for us. The guy has been one of the most productive U20 players in KHL history yet some prospect rankings don't have him listed. So why would I put much stock into something if they dont even really know one of the better prospects in our system?

What matters is, does it look like we have potential contributors to our team over the next few years? We have quite a few that look to be potential NHLers.

Cowan
Minten
Grebenkin
Niemela
Hildeby
Tverberg
Steeves
Kokkonen


Also saying we've been drafting poorly is false. We may not have had a lot of draft picks but they seem to be hitting. Even some guys being late picks.

 

[ULF_55]

Exactly. Posting that we are ranked near bottom of the league for prospect pools is kind of a moot point as we are expected to, being a top 10 team. Of course we aren't going to have a top 10-15 pool. We aren't drafting high.

I don't put much stock into some of the rankings anyways. I've seen some lists that don't even have Grebenkin as a top 5 prospect for us. The guy has been one of the most productive U20 players in KHL history yet some prospect rankings don't have him listed. So why would I put much stock into something if they dont even really know one of the better prospects in our system?

What matters is, does it look like we have potential contributors to our team over the next few years? We have quite a few that look to be potential NHLers.

Cowan
Minten
Grebenkin
Niemela
Hildeby
Tverberg
Steeves
Kokkonen


Also saying we've been drafting poorly is false. We may not have had a lot of draft picks but they seem to be hitting. Even some guys being late picks.

Benoit and McMann.

Navel gazing at drafted prospects will allow inhouse development and late bloomers to be underappreciated.

But what is the Leafs' management fascination with Rifai?

 

[darrylsittler27]

Considering how few picks the Leafs have over the last few years they have actually done a good job. And if you think other teams late round picks will magically become stars then I don't know what to say. If anyone outside the first round becomes a regular NHL player that's a win.

This argument of considering how few picks... We are ranked 28th with no picks until the 5th next year. So next year when we are 31st we will say, Oh well we may be the worst in the NHL but considering how we had no picks...Its lame. You need those young and cheap guys and no one gives you top 3 Dmen in trade. In 2 more years this wont be a young team anymore. Part of that 4 years Mathews window is firsts and seconds arriving to fill holes and help cap restraints.

Benoit and McMann.

Navel gazing at drafted prospects will allow inhouse development and late bloomers to be underappreciated.

But what is the Leafs' management fascination with Rifai?

Im arguing that pool is weak which hurts our window. We need more picks not less.

 

[ULF_55]

This argument of considering how few picks... We are ranked 28th with no picks until the 5th next year. So next year when we are 31st we will say, Oh well we may be the worst in the NHL but considering how we had no picks...Its lame. You need those young and cheap guys and no one gives you top 3 Dmen in trade. In 2 more years this wont be a young team anymore. Part of that 4 years Mathews window is firsts and seconds arriving to fill holes and help cap restraints.


Im arguing that pool is weak which hurts our window. We need more picks not less.

Perhaps, but I have never seen a pick score a goal.

All teams need players, and not every player wins on their drafted team.

How many drafted players are on the last Cup winner?

 

[ULF_55]

Grebenkin into the next round?

 

[Apex Predator]

Perhaps, but I have never seen a pick score a goal.

All teams need players, and not every player wins on their drafted team.

How many drafted players are on the last Cup winner?

Vegas does things unorthodox compared to all other teams. Unless teams start to be more like Vegas I don’t think we can compare anyone to the way Vegas runs their team.

Regardless I do agree with your point.

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

This argument of considering how few picks... We are ranked 28th with no picks until the 5th next year. So next year when we are 31st we will say, Oh well we may be the worst in the NHL but considering how we had no picks...Its lame. You need those young and cheap guys and no one gives you top 3 Dmen in trade. In 2 more years this wont be a young team anymore. Part of that 4 years Mathews window is firsts and seconds arriving to fill holes and help cap restraints.


Im arguing that pool is weak which hurts our window. We need more picks not less.

I agree that we need replacement players on the cheap but at the same time, if we hadn't traded picks at the deadline every year, people would be complaining that we did nothing to add to our defense or add depth for a cup run during our window.

Every contender does it. Tampa, Vegas, Colorado, Pittsburgh etc. They've all had extremely weak prospect pools as well. The difference is their teams actually rose to the occasion and won the cup to at least have something to show for it. Our star players always wilt in the playoffs as well as our goaltending always falling apart in Game 7s

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

We've barely mentioned Malinoski all year. Anyone who follows college hockey closely, how did he look this year? Looking at his stats, he had 18 pts in 35 games in his first year in the NCAA. Seems to be decent production. Especially considering the leading scorer only had 24 points from a 22 yr old.

 

[WTFMAN99]

For the loyal Marlie followers, does Tverberg PK? Are the Marlies proficient at it?

 

[Joe n]

This argument of considering how few picks... We are ranked 28th with no picks until the 5th next year. So next year when we are 31st we will say, Oh well we may be the worst in the NHL but considering how we had no picks...Its lame. You need those young and cheap guys and no one gives you top 3 Dmen in trade. In 2 more years this wont be a young team anymore. Part of that 4 years Mathews window is firsts and seconds arriving to fill holes and help cap restraints.


Im arguing that pool is weak which hurts our window. We need more picks not less.

Maybe they should just tank for the next few years so they can draft impact players.

 

[aingefan]

Benoit and McMann.

Navel gazing at drafted prospects will allow inhouse development and late bloomers to be underappreciated.

But what is the Leafs' management fascination with Rifai?

Dude is smart and steady, decent size, similar progression as McMann. AHL deal, then NHL deal.