Marc Bergevin: WIN-WIN FOR BOTH SIDES Edition

[hockeyfan2k11]

No stones to make a real move...no stones.

Afraid of making a mistake and having to answer for it.

 

[Lshap]

thing is, me and the guy I quoted were talking about "since december".

and here's the reality :

december : 23 goals in 14 games, GAA 1.64
January : 25 goals in 11 games, GAA 2.27
February : 37 goals in 13 games, GAA 2.84
March : 6 goals in 3 games, GAA 2.00

grand total of in 41 games, for an amazing GAA of 2.21...
in 29 of those 41 games we scored 2 or less.

so YES during that awful stretch (that isnt over yet) Habs scored two or less in the vast majority of the games, and the one who's wrong is YOU.




now i'll let you guess in wich month we had the most W...

Here's our actual GAA for those same months. The numbers for our goalies are staggeringly bad:

December: 40 GA in 14 G = slightly under 3.00 GAA / .882 SV%
January: 36 GA in 11 G = 3.30 GAA / .877 SV%
February: 40 GA in 13 G = slightly over 3.00 GAA / .903 SV%

The Habs would need to have scored 'on average' more than 3 goals per game to win. There are only two teams with GF of more than 3 per game. In other words, even if the Habs had top-5 scoring on 'average', they would STILL lose thanks to the worst goaltending in the NHL.

See the problem? No amount of denial changes the fact that terrible goaltending sabotaged any chance this team had of winning. Yes, scoring sucked for two months. But goaltending sucked even worse.

 

[DAChampion]

Here's our actual GAA for those same months. The numbers for our goalies are staggeringly bad:

December: 40 GA in 14 G = slightly under 3.00 GAA / .882 SV%
January: 36 GA in 11 G = 3.30 GAA / .877 SV%
February: 40 GA in 13 G = slightly over 3.00 GAA / .903 SV%

The Habs would need to have scored 'on average' more than 3 goals per game to win. There are only two teams with GF of more than 3 per game. In other words, even if the Habs had top-5 scoring on 'average', they would STILL lose thanks to the worst goaltending in the NHL.

See the problem? No amount of denial changes the fact that terrible goaltending sabotaged any chance this team had of winning. Yes, scoring sucked for two months. But goaltending sucked even worse.

There's no one denying that the goaltending has been problematic, stop with the phantom strawman arguments.

 

[ECWHSWI]

Here's our actual GAA for those same months. The numbers for our goalies are staggeringly bad:

December: 40 GA in 14 G = slightly under 3.00 GAA / .882 SV%
January: 36 GA in 11 G = 3.30 GAA / .877 SV%
February: 40 GA in 13 G = slightly over 3.00 GAA / .903 SV%

The Habs would need to have scored 'on average' more than 3 goals per game to win. There are only two teams with GF of more than 3 per game. In other words, even if the Habs had top-5 scoring on 'average', they would STILL lose thanks to the worst goaltending in the NHL.

See the problem? No amount of denial changes the fact that terrible goaltending sabotaged any chance this team had of winning. Yes, scoring sucked for two months. But goaltending sucked even worse.

sure, 1.64 GF, 2.21 GF...

guess you expected many wins with these performances, right ?


thee sabotaging stuff is an opinion, not a fact, so you can drop the little denial game you're trying to get going here. the "you disagree therefore you're in denial" stuff is juvenile at best.

reality is, not only did the Habs sucked hard at scoring goals, they also had a stretch of games were defenders were basically scoring in their own net. Habs forwards and defensemen making sure the opponent can score goals.

lets pretend
- scoring isnt an issue
- MB didnt grab Oilers AHL goalie to help his rookie #2
- MT didnt break up our best line (Galch-Eller-Ghetto)
- MT did not break up the Plekanec/Patches duo
- MT did not increase TOI of DD
- MT tried to have his players play the trap
- MB tried to acquire help upfront to compensate fact we lost our best player
- we are not playing a system that kills offense
- the org. isnt in love with 4th line type of players


yeah, let's pretend all that and blame the goalies. It's all on them. They can't play at Carey Price level therefore they're sucking hard.

 

[Lshap]

There's no one denying that the goaltending has been problematic, stop with the phantom strawman arguments.

Unless you dispute the numbers, there is absolutely nothing 'strawman' about goaltending! It's the single most important position in the game!

 

[WhiskeySeven*]

Carey Price had a record-setting year last year and we were the lowest scoring playoff team.

Only someone intentionally avoiding the truth would claim that this team fell apart because of bad goaltending. The truth is that bad goaltending hurt us a lot but so did the dearth of offensive talent - and in the BargainBin thread, we can point the finger at him for literally every fault with this team. He's had 4 years, an unlimited budget (and then some, with free buyouts and stuffing players in the AHL) and the unwavering support of his boss.

July 1, 2015 -> Jan 1, 2016: He acquired Barberio, Fleischmann, Kassian, Semin, Byron, Lessio and Ben Scrivens.

Someone tell me this guy doesn't have a fetish for scrubs and plugs. Someone convince me that this guy has vision, talent, direction.

 

[Mad Brills*]

He's a GM that's scared to make big moves due to the possible drawbacks. That why he's done deals like Briere, PAP, Semin, Kassian, as while they have some risk, at worst the fallout from them won't be that great. It's all been half measures his whole time here, as price has saved him from firing his friend multiple times. It's been said for 4 summers now, but this summer has to be the one that Bergevin bites the bullet and goes all in on fixing the top 6 with a legitimate player and getting a better backup plan for Price. Has to. Or else nothing will change, and he'll scapegoat Therrien with a healthy price sometime next season, and hire another possible retread, if we look at his hiring history within the organization, at multiple levels. I mean the direction of this team over the next few years hinges on him finally making a full measure this offseason. As he said on January 21st, "Its on me."

 

[Lshap]

sure, 1.64 GF, 2.21 GF...

guess you expected many wins with these performances, right ?


thee sabotaging stuff is an opinion, not a fact, so you can drop the little denial game you're trying to get going here. the "you disagree therefore you're in denial" stuff is juvenile at best.

reality is, not only did the Habs sucked hard at scoring goals, they also had a stretch of games were defenders were basically scoring in their own net. Habs forwards and defensemen making sure the opponent can score goals.

lets pretend
- scoring isnt an issue
- MB didnt grab Oilers AHL goalie to help his rookie #2
- MT didnt break up our best line (Galch-Eller-Ghetto)
- MT did not break up the Plekanec/Patches duo
- MT did not increase TOI of DD
- MT tried to have his players play the trap
- MB tried to acquire help upfront to compensate fact we lost our best player
- we are not playing a system that kills offense
- the org. isnt in love with 4th line type of players


yeah, let's pretend all that and blame the goalies. It's all on them. They can't play at Carey Price level therefore they're sucking hard.

You're making things up. Please find where I ever said it's all on goaltending. I have NEVER said that. What I DID say is that over the entire season Therrien is probably the second-biggest factor behind the collapse. He didn't cause it, but he certainly handicapped the offence with constant line shuffling.

From the beginning, I've said there are always multiple factors behind a massive collapse. Coaching, slumps, locker-room chemistry, and of course offence and goaltending -- nothing operates in a vacuum. This has been my position from day-one and it remains correct. Blaming it purely on Therrien (the most convenient target for many) is simplistic and wrong.

And as far as "Denial", check the many posts claiming "Goaltending is not the problem". Based on numbers that clearly state otherwise, that is denial.

 

[CGG]

btw name a team who managed to make the PO while scoring 2 or less for the vast majority of their games...

Our offense sucked last season, I think we'll all agree. 16th place in GF out of teams that made the playoffs. Actually tied with Ottawa for 15th, but whatever.

Chicago scored 6 more goals than Montreal last season and they won the Stanley Cup. It gets even closer if you remove the empty netters. They scored 4 more goals at even strength over 82 games. And they won the Cup.

Last season Montreal's possession numbers stunk. This year they're quite amazing, 5th or 6th place in the league depending on the source. Definitely top 10. Possession isn't the issue. They are generating more shots and more chances than most teams. They are giving up less shots and less chances than most teams.

Montreal outscored LA last season, and this season too. They have more goals this year than playoff-bound St Louis, LA, Anaheim and Detroit. Outside of Chicago and Washington, most of the Stanley Cup favorites have a worse offense than Montreal.

The point is you can win with mediocre offense. And let's be honest, that's what Montreal has, mediocre offense. It's not league worst. They outscored Buffalo by 60 goals last year, so let's not get too dramatic. It's mediocre. You can win with mediocre offense, as long as you have great goaltending. Montreal doesn't have great goaltending, they have best-in-the-world goaltending when Price is healthy.

Again, I'm all for improving the offense. But having a 12th-ranked offense in the league when the very young team has great possession numbers and an almost impossibly low shooting percentage does not scream of an area that needs a massive overhaul. And this is not to defend Therrien either, I'll be glad when he gets sacked on April 11. But the problem of course is obvious - goaltending. Bad, awful, goaltending sunk them this year. If Montreal lets in a bad-but-reasonable 2.5 goals a game instead of 3 a game since Price's injury, even with their poor offensive showing over the past 3 months, they're in the playoffs.

 

[CGG]

He's a GM that's scared to make big moves due to the possible drawbacks. That why he's done deals like Briere, PAP, Semin, Kassian, as while they have some risk, at worst the fallout from them won't be that great. It's all been half measures his whole time here, as price has saved him from firing his friend multiple times. It's been said for 4 summers now, but this summer has to be the one that Bergevin bites the bullet and goes all in on fixing the top 6 with a legitimate player and getting a better backup plan for Price. Has to. Or else nothing will change, and he'll scapegoat Therrien with a healthy price sometime next season, and hire another possible retread, if we look at his hiring history within the organization, at multiple levels. I mean the direction of this team over the next few years hinges on him finally making a full measure this offseason. As he said on January 21st, "Its on me."

Please point to one team in the league, just one, that has elite (Top 10) level starting goaltending, and also has a surefire backup on the roster capable of stepping up and being a # 1 goalie for 4 months with little drop off in performance in case the starter has a lengthy injury mid-season. It doesn't exist.

Teams that have "proven" backups also by and large have bad starting goalies. You can't devote cap space to a proven backup if you have a star starter. It doesn't work that way. The backup goalie needs to be cheap, so a young guy coming up or a terrible AHL caliber veteran. Those are your only options. No prime free agent is going to sign a cap-friendly deal to come to Montreal as Carey's backup in the hopes of maybe playing 20 games a season.

Or, put this another way. With the little cap space that we will have, do you want to improve the Top 6 or get a bona fide backup in case Price gets hurt again next season?

 

[ECWHSWI]

You're making things up. Please find where I ever said it's all on goaltending. I have NEVER said that. What I DID say is that over the entire season Therrien is probably the second-biggest factor behind the collapse. He didn't cause it, but he certainly handicapped the offence with constant line shuffling.

From the beginning, I've said there are always multiple factors behind a massive collapse. Coaching, slumps, locker-room chemistry, and of course offence and goaltending -- nothing operates in a vacuum. This has been my position from day-one and it remains correct. Blaming it purely on Therrien (the most convenient target for many) is simplistic and wrong.

And as far as "Denial", check the many posts claiming "Goaltending is not the problem". Based on numbers that clearly state otherwise, that is denial.

No need to, simple fact you come back to goaltending everytime someone tries to bring something else as major issue (whatever that something is) is pretty much the same. Goaltending is worse, goaltending is worse, goaltending is worse, bla bla bla.


and blaming it purely on goaltending is as simplistic and wrong (and before you tell me you never said that, re-read previous paragraph).

as for being convenient, putting the blame on MT is also logical, as you said yourself, the guy hadicaped the offense -> on a team that had to rely on two rookie goalies in nets..

 

[ECWHSWI]

Our offense sucked last season, I think we'll all agree. 16th place in GF out of teams that made the playoffs. Actually tied with Ottawa for 15th, but whatever.

Chicago scored 6 more goals than Montreal last season and they won the Stanley Cup. It gets even closer if you remove the empty netters. They scored 4 more goals at even strength over 82 games. And they won the Cup.

Last season Montreal's possession numbers stunk. This year they're quite amazing, 5th or 6th place in the league depending on the source. Definitely top 10. Possession isn't the issue. They are generating more shots and more chances than most teams. They are giving up less shots and less chances than most teams.

Montreal outscored LA last season, and this season too. They have more goals this year than playoff-bound St Louis, LA, Anaheim and Detroit. Outside of Chicago and Washington, most of the Stanley Cup favorites have a worse offense than Montreal.

The point is you can win with mediocre offense. And let's be honest, that's what Montreal has, mediocre offense. It's not league worst. They outscored Buffalo by 60 goals last year, so let's not get too dramatic. It's mediocre. You can win with mediocre offense, as long as you have great goaltending. Montreal doesn't have great goaltending, they have best-in-the-world goaltending when Price is healthy.

Again, I'm all for improving the offense. But having a 12th-ranked offense in the league when the very young team has great possession numbers and an almost impossibly low shooting percentage does not scream of an area that needs a massive overhaul. And this is not to defend Therrien either, I'll be glad when he gets sacked on April 11. But the problem of course is obvious - goaltending. Bad, awful, goaltending sunk them this year. If Montreal lets in a bad-but-reasonable 2.5 goals a game instead of 3 a game since Price's injury, even with their poor offensive showing over the past 3 months, they're in the playoffs.

are Habs the 12th best offense since and during Price absence ?

 

[jaffy27]

No need to, simple fact you come back to goaltending everytime someone tries to bring something else as major issue (whatever that something is) is pretty much the same. Goaltending is worse, goaltending is worse, goaltending is worse, bla bla bla.


and blaming it purely on goaltending is as simplistic and wrong (and before you tell me you never said that, re-read previous paragraph).

as for being convenient, putting the blame on MT is also logical, as you said yourself, the guy hadicaped the offense -> on a team that had to rely on two rookie goalies in nets..

You don't blanket 2 rookie goalies with "Offence", if Washington couldn't pull it off, we sure as hell couldn't.

Goaltending, along with horrible defensive coverage with zero offence is how we got here. Everyone's got their hands in this train wreck of a season.

Goalies let in bad goals = goaltenders
Defensive coverage = Therrien, forwards and defenseman
Lack of finish around the net = forwards
Lack of offensive opportunities for good players = Therrien (see Galchenyuk vs DD)
Lack of offensive talent = Bergevin

That pretty much sums up our season

 

[CGG]

are Habs the 12th best offense since and during Price absence ?

No.

Is Price part of the team going forward next season? Yes.

Do you think either deliberately or subconsciously that the players play different knowing that Price is on the shelf long term? Do you think this alleged "Therrien reverts back to dump & chase style because he's an idiot" has something to do with everyone realizing that Montreal has garbage goaltending after Price went down so they're trying to play more cautious and terrified of making mistakes? Do you think Therrien has tried to clamp down on Subban doing "individualistic" plays in part because he knows there's garbage goaltending behind him and any turnover he makes is almost 100% guaranteed to end up in the back of the net?

YES.

You cannot cut out the first 25 games of the year. They happened. If anything it's iron clad proof that the offense is there or at least can be effective. The team without Price and their performance without Price is not at all a true representation of what the team is all about.

 

[ECWHSWI]

You don't blanket 2 rookie goalies with "Offence", if Washington couldn't pull it off, we sure as hell couldn't.

Goaltending, along with horrible defensive coverage with zero offence is how we got here. Everyone's got their hands in this train wreck of a season.

Goalies let in bad goals = goaltenders
Defensive coverage = Therrien, forwards and defenseman
Lack of finish around the net = forwards
Lack of offensive opportunities for good players = Therrien (see Galchenyuk vs DD)
Lack of offensive talent = Bergevin

That pretty much sums up our season

you don't, but we're not talking about becoming a powerhouse offensively here, just being good enough for 1 or 2 more W per month since December, have a OTL instead of reg. loss once in a while, not even .500 hockey... not even close to .500 hockey actually...

Habs do that and they're a PO team...

 

[Winter Eclipse]

Truly mind-boggling that Therrien and Bergevin still have adherents who honestly believe they're doing an ok-to-excellent job.

 

[Winter Eclipse]

You cannot cut out the first 25 games of the year.

Except that you do that right here:

Do you think either deliberately or subconsciously that the players play different knowing that Price is on the shelf long term? Do you think this alleged "Therrien reverts back to dump & chase style because he's an idiot" has something to do with everyone realizing that Montreal has garbage goaltending after Price went down so they're trying to play more cautious and terrified of making mistakes? Do you think Therrien has tried to clamp down on Subban doing "individualistic" plays in part because he knows there's garbage goaltending behind him and any turnover he makes is almost 100% guaranteed to end up in the back of the net?

This is the hypocrisy people have consistently tried to explain to you; you yourself delineate a specific time period (Price being on the shelf long-term) but then demand that we use season long stats to analyze it.

 

[CGG]

you don't, but we're not talking about becoming a powerhouse offensively here, just being good enough for 1 or 2 more W per month since December, have a OTL instead of reg. loss once in a while, not even .500 hockey... not even close to .500 hockey actually...

Habs do that and they're a PO team...

Far easier to hope that your goaltenders stop a few more to at least approach average or mediocre performance, leading to a few more points here and there. If Condon/Scrivens/Tokarski played like the 24th best goalie combo in the league instead of 30th, Habs would be in the playoffs too.

 

[Lshap]

No need to, simple fact you come back to goaltending everytime someone tries to bring something else as major issue (whatever that something is) is pretty much the same. Goaltending is worse, goaltending is worse, goaltending is worse, bla bla bla.


and blaming it purely on goaltending is as simplistic and wrong (and before you tell me you never said that, re-read previous paragraph).

as for being convenient, putting the blame on MT is also logical, as you said yourself, the guy hadicaped the offense -> on a team that had to rely on two rookie goalies in nets..

Here's an even better definition of "Bla bla bla": Multiple threads where 90% of the posts hammer away at the same targets using the same dull insults, over and over and over and over again. That is the very essence of 'bla bla bla'. You're certainly entitled to keep repeating these opinions, but accusing a dissenting opinion of repetition is ironic.

EDIT: And no, I did NOT blame this season's results purely on goaltending. Not sure how many times I have to say this.

 

[CGG]

Except that you do that right here:



This is the hypocrisy people have consistently tried to explain to you; you yourself delineate a specific time period (Price being on the shelf long-term) but then demand that we use season long stats to analyze it.

Not at all. I'm fine with using the whole season. Just don't exclude the good parts to fit your agenda. There's no reason to chop out the start with Price. There's at least a reason to consider the Habs aren't 100% in all other areas of the game since he got hurt. Habs have a mediocre offense. Yes, it's worse than it should be the last 3 months without Price, I think that point is obvious. Price won't score goals, but it lets you play a lot more confidently and you will likely score more goals as a result, when you're not terrified that any turnover will end up in the back of your net.

But ignore all that. Habs are middle-of-the-pack offense over the course of the whole season, just like Chicago was last season. Could the Habs use an offensive improvement? Sure. But middle-of-the-pack can be perfectly fine, as long as you have good goaltending. Right now the Habs have garbage goaltending without Price. Replace garbage goaltending with best goaltending on Earth next season when Price is fully healthy, and the team will be absolutely fine. Preserve the new-found dominance in possession (no worse than Top 10 in basically any enhanced team stat) and they will be near the top of the league. And that's without any personnel improvements. Therefore I really don't think the Habs are a bad team, or will be bad next season. Improvements would help sure, but I don't think a complete overhaul is needed. Bring back the entire cast again and they will be near the top of the standings, simply from the massive change from garbage goaltending to best-in-class goaltending.

And for the record, none of this is to defend Therrien. He needs to go. And I assume he will be gone by the middle of April.

 

[Jay Wolf]

Carey Price had a record-setting year last year and we were the lowest scoring playoff team.

Only someone intentionally avoiding the truth would claim that this team fell apart because of bad goaltending. The truth is that bad goaltending hurt us a lot but so did the dearth of offensive talent - and in the BargainBin thread, we can point the finger at him for literally every fault with this team. He's had 4 years, an unlimited budget (and then some, with free buyouts and stuffing players in the AHL) and the unwavering support of his boss.

July 1, 2015 -> Jan 1, 2016: He acquired Barberio, Fleischmann, Kassian, Semin, Byron, Lessio and Ben Scrivens.

Someone tell me this guy doesn't have a fetish for scrubs and plugs. Someone convince me that this guy has vision, talent, direction.

Not to convince you of anything, mostly since I agree with a lot of what you say, but a case can be made for his "build from the draft" credo. Maybe he too feels that this team is crap down the middle and isn't going anywhere until 27 is capable of taking them there. Similarly, he might see 34 and 28 as important pieces as well and is biding his time until they're ready. That murderers row of nothingness you listed above sure looks like someone who's going through the motions... for whatever reason.

Or maybe he's just in over his head as you say. One thing is for sure: if he comes back with the same coach next season, that alone is grounds for dismissal! You can throw all that other stuff out!!

 

[Bryson]

Please point to one team in the league, just one, that has elite (Top 10) level starting goaltending, and also has a surefire backup on the roster capable of stepping up and being a # 1 goalie for 4 months with little drop off in performance in case the starter has a lengthy injury mid-season. It doesn't exist.

Teams that have "proven" backups also by and large have bad starting goalies. You can't devote cap space to a proven backup if you have a star starter. It doesn't work that way. The backup goalie needs to be cheap, so a young guy coming up or a terrible AHL caliber veteran. Those are your only options. No prime free agent is going to sign a cap-friendly deal to come to Montreal as Carey's backup in the hopes of maybe playing 20 games a season.

Or, put this another way. With the little cap space that we will have, do you want to improve the Top 6 or get a bona fide backup in case Price gets hurt again next season?

Budaj, Halak, Huet, Price. Previous regime did a MUCH better job of acquiring quality goaltending. Marc Bergevin = Tokarski, Condon, Scrivens lmao!

When Henrik Lundqvist went down, The Rangers went on a tear with Cam Talbot. He had 21W-9L, .926 sv%. This year with Edmonton he has 16W-22L, .919 sv%. Same goalie with similar sv% yet on a good team he had a winning record, on a bad team he is at the bottom of the league.

 

[WhiskeySeven*]

Not to convince you of anything, mostly since I agree with a lot of what you say, but a case can be made for his "build from the draft" credo. Maybe he too feels that this team is crap down the middle and isn't going anywhere until 27 is capable of taking them there. Similarly, he might see 34 and 28 as important pieces as well and is biding his time until they're ready. That murderers row of nothingness you listed above sure looks like someone who's going through the motions... for whatever reason.

Or maybe he's just in over his head as you say. One thing is for sure: if he comes back with the same coach next season, that alone is grounds for dismissal! You can throw all that other stuff out!!

If he wanted to build through the draft while still respecting our team's performances enough to buy every deadline, I would've expected to see less FA signings like Murray, Bouillon, Drewiske, Barberio, etc. I would've expected to see Chucky get a ton of chances at C until it worked. I would've expected to see DD and Pleks phased out.

But he not only hedges his bets when it comes to the draft, he also doesn't sign FAs, doesn't make trades and doesn't play good hockey. He has literally nothing going for him or our team in the past 4 years, not even Jeff Petry is all that impressive - 6 year contract to a guy whose career high is 27 points. He's a good hockey player but at 5.5x6 he isn't all that impressive or a coup.

 

[Lshap]

Budaj, Halak, Huet, Price. Previous regime did a MUCH better job of acquiring quality goaltending. Marc Bergevin = Tokarski, Condon, Scrivens lmao!

When Henrik Lundqvist went down, The Rangers went on a tear with Cam Talbot. He had 21W-9L, .926 sv%. This year with Edmonton he has 16W-22L, .919 sv%. Same goalie with similar sv% yet on a good team he had a winning record, on a bad team he is at the bottom of the league.

I agree our backups were pathetic, and that's on Bergevin. I can excuse him for Condon because in October nobody knew Price's future. But by mid-December when the major cracks were evident, Bergevin had the chance to keep the team afloat with a capable backup and got ****ing Scrivens. What a shame.

Talbot's stretch as Lundqvist's backup was amazing last year, but it's not surprising he regressed when having to handle the full season on a worse team. It's a combination of both factors, naturally.

 

[Habs4ev*]

Both problems have hurt the habs but stop with the goaltending already. That problem is going away.

how do you know? and how can you be so sure?

the price injury could be career threatening, when he is back, how do you know he will be any better then condon? how do you know he wont get injured again early next season?

i don't mean to be pessemistic but assuming price will be back at the beginning of next season in his previous "lights out" form is not realistic, the guy will not have played a game in almost an entire year,

people are dumb to assume when price returns everything will return to sunshine, rainbows and lollipops,

price will never be as good as he was last season