Management Discussion Thread | Vin the Off-Season!

[andora]

I think K'Andre Miller is probably even too good to target. We all know the name Braden Schneider if we're talking NY.

LA, for example, is a team that has a ton of young defenders waiting in the wings. They're a team that's on the verge of breaking out, have the cap space next season for an extension, without a lot of players to re-sign. They could have been one option if they wanted to make a big move.

Without looking - say horvat to kings with extension i wonder how pinched they are with kopitars last year plus horvats first year of extension

Horvat/danault/lizotte is an interesting mix with byfield kupari and turcotte

 

[AwesomeInTheory]

Perplexed by all the nerds loving "cap flexibility" over all else. Does having good players not matter? Miller is a great player, Mikayeve brings things we don't have in the roster already. Would the Bitter Bros rather we pull a Coyote and go full tank for 5 years?

As a fan I want the team to be in the fight, not nerding over stats or lamenting moves that I want but are not attainable. The organization has made huge reorganizational strides and cleaned house. All these pocket pundits with their "plans and projections" and BCIT diplomas are going on mute.

I think most folks would be happy of there was a clear course of action and direction for this team.

Doubling down on essentially the same team as last season and providing more of the same wasn’t what folks were expecting with Benning getting bounced.

Right now it feels like management are talking out of both sides of their mouth. They wanted to free up cap space and “make some moves” and now they wanted to keep Miller and do whatever they were doing.

It’s confusing and doesn’t speak to a thought out plan. You might think worrying about small details are for “nerds”, but it’s that approach which has led to Tampa’s continued success.

 

[Ruthervin]

We have no assets.

We are not going to improve. We are going to be paying more to EP & Horvat.

There is no help coming from the farm. We are a contended-for-playoffs team that has the cap structure of a team that is exiting its cup window. If you don't see how this is a problem you simply don't understand how the NHL under a hard salary cap works.

1) Farm - Lekkerimaki, Rathbone, and Karlsson are all legit assets in my opinion. Rathbone will have a reasonable shot of making the team this year on the 3rd pairing, while I can definitely see Karlsson making the 4th line once the Canucks are ready to move on from Pearson (Hoglander takes Pearson's spot while Karlsson moves onto the 4th line). I'll explain Lekkerimaki in my 3rd point.

2) Even with future extensions to Pettersson and Podkolzin, we will still have enough money to improve our team once Pearson, Dickinson, and Myers come off the books and replace those contracts with better value. A year later, the same thing can happen with Poolman off the books.

3) If Lekkerimaki pans out, he can step into line up either next season or the year after, and replace one of Boeser or Garland (who can then be moved for picks and/or prospects)......which would give us even more cap space to make our team more well rounded.

4) 1st and 2nd rounds picks over these next few years. If the Canucks can retain all/most of their picks over these coming years (unlike the Benning regime), then we should have plenty of enough time to build up our farm over these next 3-4 seasons (I say 3-4 seasons because some of our core players such as Boeser and Demko will become UFA's over this time).

So with respect PuckMunchkin, I'm not sure if I share your decidedly 'half-glass empty' outlook of the Canucks.

 

[rypper]

To your 4th point that doesn't really compute with signing Miller and pushing for playoffs/cup aspirations.

If the team wants to make moves for playoff help, without any assets on the farm, it's the picks that will have to move. What you're suggesting with the 4th point is why a lot of us wanted to move Miller and accumulate assets and then push all in.

 

[andora]

1) Farm - Lekkerimaki, Rathbone, and Karlsson are all legit assets in my opinion. Rathbone will have a reasonable shot of making the team this year on the 3rd pairing, while I can definitely see Karlsson making the 4th line once the Canucks are ready to move on from Pearson (Hoglander takes Pearson's spot while Karlsson moves onto the 4th line). I'll explain Lekkerimaki in my 3rd point.

2) Even with future extensions to Pettersson and Podkolzin, we will still have enough money to improve our team once Pearson, Dickinson, and Myers come off the books and replace those contracts with better value. A year later, the same thing can happen with Poolman off the books.

3) If Lekkerimaki pans out, he can step into line up either next season or the year after, and replace one of Boeser or Garland (who can then be moved for picks and/or prospects)......which would give us even more cap space to make our team more well rounded.

4) 1st and 2nd rounds picks over these next few years. If the Canucks can retain all/most of their picks over these coming years (unlike the Benning regime), then we should have plenty of enough time to build up our farm over these next 3-4 seasons (I say 3-4 seasons because some of our core players such as Boeser and Demko will become UFA's over this time).

So with respect PuckMunchkin, I'm not sure if I share your decidedly 'half-glass empty' outlook of the Canucks.

I do agree mostly.. i mean you dont need 5 guys making the team every year

A rotation of one forward making the jump every 12 to 18 months and 1 dman every two seasons is good spacing

 

[andora]

I think most folks would be happy of there was a clear course of action and direction for this team.

Doubling down on essentially the same team as last season and providing more of the same wasn’t what folks were expecting with Benning getting bounced.

Right now it feels like management are talking out of both sides of their mouth. They wanted to free up cap space and “make some moves” and now they wanted to keep Miller and do whatever they were doing.

It’s confusing and doesn’t speak to a thought out plan. You might think worrying about small details are for “nerds”, but it’s that approach which has led to Tampa’s continued success.

Lack of explanation could also be not divulging parts of your plan publicly

Giving away too much info can affect market prices or intentions not in your favor.

The plan to re sign miller and free up cap space through some moves can co exist, if timing doesnt perfectly align for both to happen together it doesnt mean you need to drop one

I am sure they have some soft dates that if the market doesnt open up and moves can be made they could go contingiency and dump a player or two for no gains.

I am sure after the shoe eventually drops and they are able to make a couple moves things could become clearer for us

 

[andora]

Tampas team last year was comprised of

Forwards
8 drafted
2 undrafted
2 ufas
2 trades

Defence
2 drafted
4 trade one of which undrafted
1 ufa

Goalie
1 drafted
1 waiver

Lots of ways to do it.. scouting and undrafted players are paramount for us the next 24 months

 

[Hit the post]

Tampas team last year was comprised of

Forwards
8 drafted
2 undrafted
2 ufas
2 trades

Defence
2 drafted
4 trade one of which undrafted
1 ufa

Goalie
1 drafted
1 waiver

Lots of ways to do it.. scouting and undrafted players are paramount for us the next 24 months

They also dealt to us our best forward and subsequently won two straight Cups after that (and appeared in the Finals in the 3rd year). A good GM is more than just drafting.

 

[credulous]

2) Even with future extensions to Pettersson and Podkolzin, we will still have enough money to improve our team once Pearson, Dickinson, and Myers come off the books and replace those contracts with better value. A year later, the same thing can happen with Poolman off the books.

you keep saying this but the team needs to actually identify and acquire these 'better value' players. you don't typically get these kind of assets without giving up something in return. ditching bad contracts is just step one in getting better. it's not the thing that makes you better

if the canucks are just going to sit on those contracts and wait for them to expire then they're (likely; barring a garland or boeser move that doesn't involve money coming back) going to basically concede that they need to find some miraculous value every other team overlooks in order to do anything the next two seasons and then they're going to be pressed to find three cap controlled assets that can provide similar on ice value in order to not take a step back if and when they commit that cap to pettersson and podkolzin

canucks management is walking a tightrope. the team as constructed has significant holes to address, has no roster flexibility, no surplus parts that carry any value and very little in the way of internal improvement on the cusp. wait two years is a terrible plan. trying to fix the roster without commiting or risking anything significant is a terrible plan

the only way out of mediocrity for the canucks is to swing at least one and probably more than one big deal to bring in more talent on the defense and better balance at forward. if this team looks largely the same two years from now i feel safe in predicting they will have seen limited success and will be in no better position than they are now to actually piece together a contender

 

[Peen]

we cannot talk about players expiring in years when we need to compete the next year or two

that argument made sense if we were going to do a semi-holding pattern for two years as an argument to justify a quick re-tool on the fly while staying relatively "meaningful games in march" competitive

the semi-parallel to gillis in 2008 makes sense, but they need to get dan hamhuis, one of burrows/hansen/malhotra, and another good second pairing guy. it doesn't all need to be in one year, obviously. it's ridiculous to expect them to go from bottom ten to elite contender in a year which is what those three moves would do. but the gap to go from where they are now as the ~15th best team in the league is insanely hard to bridge. they are under insane time constraints to do it quickly, so my point is they need to show now that they can make those meaningful upgrades & tough decisions quickly. getting a few items ticked prior to the summer makes dealing w things in the summer much easier as well

 

[Ruthervin]

you keep saying this but the team needs to actually identify and acquire these 'better value' players. you don't typically get these kind of assets without giving up something in return.

I think there's plenty of ways that Alvin and Rutherford can get there:

Option #1: 2024 UFA/RFA. Lets say that Alvin and Rutherford decide to keep Myers, Pearson, and Dickinson for the next two seasons until the Summer of 2024. So - 11.9 million of the books right there. Lets say about 6 million of that goes to Pettersson and Podkolzin combined, while about 1.7 million of that goes to Hoglander. So, about 4.2 million left over. 1 million more to Dermott. Now 3.2 million.

-Hoglander takes Pearson's spot on the 3rd line
-Linus Karlsson takes Hoglander's spot on the 4th line.
-Lekkerimaki becomes good enough to be a legitimate top 6 sniper which makes one of Boeser or Garland expendable (lets say, for picks and/or prospects). So, lets say in total, you now have over approximately 9 million in cap space. Looking at UFA's, you have Brett Pesce (not sure he makes UFA), Matt Roy, Gustav Forsling, Jane Hakanpaa, etc. To address the Top 4, maybe the Canucks go HARD at one of those.

Maybe instead of UFA, the Canucks decide to look at some RFA's and swing a deal (lets say in this case, it involves Garland and maybe an add....as high as a 1st per se). 2024 RFA's = Filip Hronkek, Henrik Jokiharju, Braden Schneider etc.).

Option #2: Maybe next summer, the Canucks try and move Pearson, Myers, and Dickinson in advance to clear cap and explore 2023 UFA's and RFA's. So maybe that's Dumba, Orlov, Severson, Weegar, Fabbro, etc. If the Canucks explore this option, maybe it's because Lekkerimaki developed faster than expected and is projected by management to be a top 6 forward at the start of the 2023-2024 season (which would make one of Boeser or Garland expendable in a trade for one of the RFA's, or maybe a trade for picks/prospects which would allow us to for after one or two of the above UFA's.).

I don't have all of the answers or all of "know all's" of what management will do, but I do know that there is a 'pathway' of sorts for us graduating to a 1st round calibre team (where we are now), to a team that can progress further than the 2nd round.

 

[overboard]

2) Even with future extensions to Pettersson and Podkolzin, we will still have enough money to improve our team once Pearson, Dickinson, and Myers come off the books and replace those contracts with better value. A year later, the same thing can happen with Poolman off the books.

I wrote out a post about this point above, but then @credulous already said what I said here better.

 

[AwesomeInTheory]

Lack of explanation could also be not divulging parts of your plan publicly

Giving away too much info can affect market prices or intentions not in your favor.

The plan to re sign miller and free up cap space through some moves can co exist, if timing doesnt perfectly align for both to happen together it doesnt mean you need to drop one

I am sure they have some soft dates that if the market doesnt open up and moves can be made they could go contingiency and dump a player or two for no gains.

I am sure after the shoe eventually drops and they are able to make a couple moves things could become clearer for us

The problem is that they have given conflicting statements on what they wanted to do this off-season. One of the quotes I saw was that they didn’t want Miller’s status “hanging over their heads” going into Sept. Which could either mean they’ve made a decision on Horvat or “plans changed” and they had to try and salvage their plans of offloading Miller for a haul because the market wasn’t what they thought it would be (which is fine.)

The biggest issue with this team is the D. And they did very little to address those concerns.

Maybe they have something up their sleeves. I’m not certain they do, though.

 

[andora]

The problem is that they have given conflicting statements on what they wanted to do this off-season. One of the quotes I saw was that they didn’t want Miller’s status “hanging over their heads” going into Sept. Which could either mean they’ve made a decision on Horvat or “plans changed” and they had to try and salvage their plans of offloading Miller for a haul because the market wasn’t what they thought it would be (which is fine.)

The biggest issue with this team is the D. And they did very little to address those concerns.

Maybe they have something up their sleeves. I’m not certain they do, though.

fair enough, the plan could have included trade miller IF it was worth it, but re-signing him wouldn't be a disappointment. again, these things can all run congruently - and one way or another they didn't want miller's status to hang over going into training camp - that was a date they put in place.

now whether january comes and some team would have got desperate and offered rubies and diamonds for miller, doesn't matter anymore. the fact they put a date on something, and actioned something by said date says a lot as well. you can have a sheet of papers across the table with plans A through Z, and backups as well if certain things dont' work but putting dates on things and sticking to a timeline of decisions is, atleast in my opinion a strong business way of approaching things.

i'm sure they have other dates as well, specifically when they would look to release draft picks to be used in trade discussions if they cannot unload any contracts via hockey trades.

 

[wonton15]

I understand why he said that but that is disgusting to hear at all

 

[StreetHawk]

I understand why he said that but that is disgusting to hear at all

Sometimes GM says things just cause there’s no real other response. Can’t devalue what you have by being negative about it.

Just part of the business.

 

[logan5]

I understand why he said that but that is disgusting to hear at all

Is this for real!?! This guy should be viewed as just as dumb as Benning, because this is exactly something Benning would say. Looks like Allvin us just another average GM.

 

[andora]

Sometimes GM says things just cause there’s no real other response. Can’t devalue what you have by being negative about it.

Just part of the business.

exactly - it would be like Dubas saying he really likes his forward depth

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

I understand why he said that but that is disgusting to hear at all

that's the kind of bonkers thing you say when you're deep into a trade no one knows about yet

right?

...right?

 

[Vector]

that's the kind of bonkers thing you say when you're deep into a trade no one knows about yet

right?

...right?

One thing I legitimately enjoy about this management group is we have absolutely no idea when anything is going down. They could have 7 trades ready to go right now, not pull the trigger on any of them, and we would never know.

 

[Metalwood]

We have no assets.

We are not going to improve. We are going to be paying more to EP & Horvat.

There is no help coming from the farm. We are a contended-for-playoffs team that has the cap structure of a team that is exiting its cup window. If you don't see how this is a problem you simply don't understand how the NHL under a hard salary cap works.

no assets ... open your eyes man. there are young players in the farm system, maybe not chock a block with blue chippers but still some darts that could play out. you're sold on the negative narrative, the all mighty "cap space rules all". every team that wants to contend is spending to the cap... maybe YOU don't understand how it works. keep drinking that koolaid.

 

[Metalwood]

I think most folks would be happy of there was a clear course of action and direction for this team.

Doubling down on essentially the same team as last season and providing more of the same wasn’t what folks were expecting with Benning getting bounced.

Right now it feels like management are talking out of both sides of their mouth. They wanted to free up cap space and “make some moves” and now they wanted to keep Miller and do whatever they were doing.

It’s confusing and doesn’t speak to a thought out plan. You might think worrying about small details are for “nerds”, but it’s that approach which has led to Tampa’s continued success.

it doesn't happen in a vacuum. Tampa has had many years of continuity to build their team from Yezrman through to Brisbois. we had whole sale cleaning of house 10 months ago, maybe give it some time?

again with the "Cap space"... truth of it is they do have a plan, look at all the changes in player development its gonna take some time. maybe with better systems play the defense will improve significantly. there are a lot of pieces at play.

bottom line for me is i'm not going to worry about things I can't control. I'll cheer for the team and hope for the best, it is a game after all. i think some people take this sht wayyy too seriously. I do see a plan, just because it doesn't fit your wants or needs doesn't negate that.

 

[Canucks LB]

I get the feeling they wanted to change a lot, But they figured they would get some Big Offers for JT.
When they did not come, They assumed they could at least get rid of a contract or two like they did at the TDL.
It did not happen again,
So they basically said, well f*** it, Let's just keep JT Miller instead of losing him for nothing next year, or Risking injury during the year and can't trade him at the TDL.

Especially When he saw guys like Kadri and Huberdeau get Paid.

 

[Tact]

I get the feeling they wanted to change a lot, But they figured they would get some Big Offers for JT.
When they did not come, They assumed they could at least get rid of a contract or two like they did at the TDL.
It did not happen again,
So they basically said, well f*** it, Let's just keep JT Miller instead of losing him for nothing next year, or Risking injury during the year and can't trade him at the TDL.

Especially When he saw guys like Kadri and Huberdeau get Paid.

BS imo. The plan has always been to re-sign Miller and to make the playoffs. The rumours of the Canucks not allowing other teams to speak to Millers agent about extension proves that. I don’t really think they were serious when they were shopping him. But hey, I could be wrong.

 

[RandV]

I think most folks would be happy of there was a clear course of action and direction for this team.

Doubling down on essentially the same team as last season and providing more of the same wasn’t what folks were expecting with Benning getting bounced.

I know what you're saying but just wanted to comment for the talk about this still being 'Benning's team' have people forgotten that it was previously Benning and Green's team? Obviously in the 2021-22 season the Canucks under green were 8-15-2, then under Boudreau finished 32-15-10. That's roughly a 60 point season vs a 105 point season. That isn't necessarily going to translate to 1:1 to a new season but there's plenty of reason to assume that the team as is could be better than like a 90 point team or whatever.

The scary thing is if Benning did the obvious thing and replaced Green last year with a competent established coach (rather than just Trent Cull) he may still have a job. But because it was just Benning's nature to always do the dumbest thing possible here we are today with a new management group.