Newsday: Lou expected to extend for 3 more years

[Seph]

He's not arguing that he was a top pairing defenseman but that management should've seen that coming and not traded him "no matter the cost."

I mean, he literally stated he was talking about "what a good player Toews actually was when [Lou] dealt him." Then he used regular season ice time for the season before he was dealt in an attempt to bolster his point.

 

[PK Cronin]

I mean, he literally stated he was talking about "what a good player Toews actually was when [Lou] dealt him." Then he used regular season ice time for the season before he was dealt in an attempt to bolster his point.

He's doing both then and it doesn't really make the argument any better.

 

[Osakahaus]

I mean, he literally stated he was talking about "what a good player Toews actually was when [Lou] dealt him." Then he used regular season ice time for the season before he was dealt in an attempt to bolster his point.

The Toews problem was that he also was a mess defensively at times. He wasn't complete before arriving in Colorado

 

[CupHolders]

Sorry, I just skimmed through the last few posts about Lou’s view on Toews. I think you only have to search and read Lou’s comments about Toews shortly after the trade.

He clearly states that he was valued and they had hoped to keep him, but his accepting arbitration made it too large a risk for the remainder of the roster.

I don’t, nor have ever understood this notion that Lou undervalued Toews.

Moreover, he even mentioned that going to Colorado was an expected benefit to Toews himself.

 

[doublechili]

The biggest screw up wasn't actually trading Toews, but not trying to replace what you lost in losing him. Chara wasn't the right player. Ditto for Romanov. You heard Lou mention D being a strength. This is simply not true. The Isles don't have a pairing that scares you offensively.

I don't think Chara or Romanov were intended to be replacements for Toews or Leddy. Lou himself said this time last year (and reiterated the other day) that ideally the team needed to find 2 defensemen - a defensive and an offensive D. Romanov was the defensive D. Lou acknowledged this week that they couldn't get the other piece.

Despite the focus on an offensive winger for some, I hope the main goal is to get a dynamic offensive, puck-moving, PP QB defenseman. Otherwise, we go into the season hoping Dobson and/or Aho develop significantly, but I'd rather not hope (again).

 

[Chapin Landvogt]

He's not arguing that he was a top pairing defenseman but that management should've seen that coming and not traded him "no matter the cost."

The cost would have been Barzal or Pulock.

All three were RFAs. Only two could be kept.

Sure, one can argue until they're blue in the face that the team should have moved Pulock instead of Toews.

But it was a time of tight roster squeezing for most all teams and Pulock was at a phase in his career where he was in line for more dough than Toews one way or another.

That surely lessened his market, if management had even had any desire to keep Toews over Pulock.

 

[JPIsles18]

I mean, he literally stated he was talking about "what a good player Toews actually was when [Lou] dealt him." Then he used regular season ice time for the season before he was dealt in an attempt to bolster his point.

He's doing both then and it doesn't really make the argument any better.

I respect both your guys' opinions. Let's agree to disagree regarding what my point is.

Is the need for you guys to believe Lou and Trotz are always right that strong? Forget what my point is for a minute and let's focus on how great of a player Toews has "become." I put that in quotations because his underlying stats and the eye test were pretty strong. He was a player who was excellent at breakouts while being fairly strong defensively. He goes to Colorado and finally puts it all together in a greater role as a true top pairing defenseman. Forget what my point is. The Isles whiffed badly on evaluating this player. Lou and Trotz should take the L on this and own it. This isn't a player like Verhaeghe that came out of nowhere. He was really good at the NHL level for the Isles and the Isles couldn't figure out a way to keep a cheap top pairing (or at worst, a top 4 dman).

I don't want to keep rehashing this as some on here continuously hammer the tight cap nonsense. That was the reason he got dealt because it was the path of least resistance. Good GMs don't do things because it was the most convenient thing to do at the time. If they evaluated the player correctly, I believe Lou would've done more to keep him and deal Leddy instead. The bottom line is that they likely valued Leddy more as you pointed out, he was leaned on more in the playoffs.

It's always fun to be a fan of an organization that rarely produces top young talent, only to give them away for free.

 

[PK Cronin]

I respect both your guys' opinions. Let's agree to disagree regarding what my point is.

Is the need for you guys to believe Lou and Trotz are always right that strong?

This is an incredibly childish and dumb question. Is the need for you to believe your fancy stats are always right that strong?

I've disagreed with plenty of what Lamoriello has done, including part of his handling of this situation (not replacing Toews or Leddy effectively).

Forget what my point is for a minute and let's focus on how great of a player Toews has "become." I put that in quotations because his underlying stats and the eye test were pretty strong. He was a player who was excellent at breakouts while being fairly strong defensively. He goes to Colorado and finally puts it all together in a greater role as a true top pairing defenseman. Forget what my point is. The Isles whiffed badly on evaluating this player. Lou and Trotz should take the L on this and own it. This isn't a player like Verhaeghe that came out of nowhere. He was really good at the NHL level for the Isles and the Isles couldn't figure out a way to keep a cheap top pairing (or at worst, a top 4 dman).

You're just not listening or refusing to acknowledge the situation the team was in. We've gone over this and you offer nothing as a rebuttal other than how good Toews is. We might disagree about how good he is but won't disagree that he was good.

You keep trying to lay blame on management for a bad evaluation while disregarding everything that impacted the decision to have him traded.

1) Flat cap
2) Arbitration
3) Leddy wasn't movable without attaching serious assets to move him
4) Removing assets by attaching them to Leddy removes the ability to shed Ladd's salary later on
5) Toews wouldn't have been as good on the Islanders as he is on Colorado
6) He had a bad playoff
7) The Islanders went further without him than with him

I don't want to keep rehashing this as some on here continuously hammer the tight cap nonsense.

It's not nonsense, it's the biggest reason he was jettisoned out of town. This is simple logic.

That was the reason he got dealt because it was the path of least resistance. Good GMs don't do things because it was the most convenient thing to do at the time. If they evaluated the player correctly, I believe Lou would've done more to keep him and deal Leddy instead. The bottom line is that they likely valued Leddy more as you pointed out, he was leaned on more in the playoffs.

It's always fun to be a fan of an organization that rarely produces top young talent, only to give them away for free.

He wasn't given away for free. You're offering no counter to the cap situation other than saying that Lamoriello should've found a way to keep him. That's burying your head in the sand and not acknowledging the uniqueness of the situation that was forced upon the organization and the NHL. There was a hefty price to be paid to move out salary like Leddy. I even asked you what price you would've been willing to pay to do that and you offered nothing because you either know it'd be too costly or you don't want to think about it since it won't back up your position. I'm not sure Leddy was the preference long term since he was older but the difference between Leddy and Toews in the short term wasn't much.

 

[Seph]

I respect both your guys' opinions. Let's agree to disagree regarding what my point is.

Is the need for you guys to believe Lou and Trotz are always right that strong? Forget what my point is for a minute and let's focus on how great of a player Toews has "become." I put that in quotations because his underlying stats and the eye test were pretty strong. He was a player who was excellent at breakouts while being fairly strong defensively. He goes to Colorado and finally puts it all together in a greater role as a true top pairing defenseman. Forget what my point is. The Isles whiffed badly on evaluating this player. Lou and Trotz should take the L on this and own it. This isn't a player like Verhaeghe that came out of nowhere. He was really good at the NHL level for the Isles and the Isles couldn't figure out a way to keep a cheap top pairing (or at worst, a top 4 dman).

I don't want to keep rehashing this as some on here continuously hammer the tight cap nonsense. That was the reason he got dealt because it was the path of least resistance. Good GMs don't do things because it was the most convenient thing to do at the time. If they evaluated the player correctly, I believe Lou would've done more to keep him and deal Leddy instead. The bottom line is that they likely valued Leddy more as you pointed out, he was leaned on more in the playoffs.

It's always fun to be a fan of an organization that rarely produces top young talent, only to give them away for free.

I love how I have you want to agree to disagre about what your original point was, but then childishly sneak in that you were still totally right about it. Also, I've continually been asking you about why the 29 other GMs who didn't think Toews was a top pairing dman at the time and why neither they or their scouts passed their eye test if it was as clear as claim. So, that you felt the need to try to take that shot about how this is just about some need for Lou /Trotz to be right and not about your revisionist history, makes it pretty clear you don't respect my opinion as you still won't even address it, but will put other words in my mouth.

If you truly wanted to agree to disagree then you don't follow it with a bunch of paragraphs about how you are actually still right and others are wrong and biased. If you are going to ask someone else to agree to disagree you need to actually be willing to do the same yourself. You are resorting to some very childish tactics here, which makes it seem all the more like you really do have a need for Lou and Trotz to be wrong and are biased due to that. Trying to reduce the situation down to simply the path of least resistance reinforces that.

BTW, his underlying stats weren't even all that great. Cizikas had a notably higher xGF% than him in the regular season that year (53.99 vs 51.84), but I don't see you crowing about the steal Lou got on Zeeker as an obvious top line forward. And Toews' underlying stats in the playoffs weren't great either -- of the 16 players with at least 200 5v5 minutes played, Toews had the 12th worst xGF%, and he again finished below Cizikas (50.32 vs 49.10).

 

[doublechili]

FWIW, I think there may be the following categories of posters on the board:

1. consistently push the narrative that Lou is good;

2. think that Lou is good;

3. think that despite some negatives, Lou is a net positive;

4. ambivalent about Lou;

5. think that despite some positives, Lou is a net negative;

6. think that Lou is bad;

7. consistently push the narrative that Lou is bad.

And I think what happens sometimes is that posters who might fall within categories 3-5 read a post by a 1-2 or 6-7 poster and disagree, and then get called a 1 or 7.

 

[Glory Days]

FWIW, I think there may be the following categories of posters on the board:

1. consistently push the narrative that Lou is good;

2. think that Lou is good;

3. think that despite some negatives, Lou is a net positive;

4. ambivalent about Lou;

5. think that despite some positives, Lou is a net negative;

6. think that Lou is bad;

7. consistently push the narrative that Lou is bad.

And I think what happens sometimes is that posters who might fall within categories 3-5 read a post by a 1-2 or 6-7 poster and disagree, and then get called a 1 or 7.

I think that is very true. This board is getting like the US political scene. The moderates get called out for being a socialist liberal or a maga conservative depending on one’s viewpoint.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

I think it's a reasonable question to ask, how much longer will Lou be GM of the Isles. The Isles need to prepare for a succession plan. The Isles got very close to winning the Cup with Lou, he deserves a lot of credit for turning the Isles back into a relevant organization from the Snow years. If Lee didn't get hurt when the Isles lost in game 7 against TB in the conference finals. Isles would have won the cup IMO. Unfortunately. The Isles have never been close to that team since, it may be time to transition with new ideas.

 

[MarsTBOW]

We will likely never know what the plan really is on how Lou plans to ride out into the Sunset....

 

[The Winter Soldier]

We will likely never know what the plan really is on how Lou plans to ride out into the Sunset....

I would have been entertaining offers for Nelson, Pageau, Palmieri all season. And revisit them now. The current team is not a stanley cup roster. Adding one player will not change this. They had their run 3-4 years ago. Time now is to sell, add assets, and retool. I would even ask Varly to waive his NTC. Centers and Goalkeepers are always in demand at the TDL. Lou has a real chance here, but I am skeptical he has thrown in the towel yet. This has been a good and bad trait of his.

 

[Throttle]

I think it's a reasonable question to ask, how much longer will Lou be GM of the Isles. The Isles need to prepare for a succession plan. The Isles got very close to winning the Cup with Lou, he deserves a lot of credit for turning the Isles back into a relevant organization from the Snow years. If Lee didn't get hurt when the Isles lost in game 7 against TB in the conference finals. Isles would have won the cup IMO. Unfortunately. The Isles have never been close to that team since, it may be time to transition with new ideas.

The isles have no succession plan in place for Lou. (Uh-huh). Why do the Isles have to share a succession plan?

 

[MarsTBOW]

The isles have no succession plan in place for Lou. (Uh-huh). Why do the Isles have to share a succession plan?

Yes knowing how they do business in this way, why would someone expect them to change?
There really is no strategic reason for telling us (Or the rest of the NHL) what they will do, so I expect not knowing and no reason for them to tell us, nor are they obliged to tell anyone.

 

[seafoam]

John Collins will conduct the search.

 

[Throttle]

Yes knowing how they do business in this way, why would someone expect them to change?
There really is no strategic reason for telling us (Or the rest of the NHL) what they will do, so I expect not knowing and no reason for them to tell us, nor are they obliged to tell anyone.

‘They’ ? The Isles are not a public company, so like most sports team, you’ll know when you know.

Unless you are using the highly successful model of Toronto w/Lou and Dubas. That wasn’t succession planning, that was greasing the market for a stat sheet to take over one of the leagues most prominent franchises.

 

[MarsTBOW]

‘They’ ? The Isles are not a public company, so like most sports team, you’ll know when you know.

Unless you are using the highly successful model of Toronto w/Lou and Dubas. That wasn’t succession planning, that was greasing the market for a stat sheet to take over one of the leagues most prominent franchises.

The "They" was me referring to Scott Malkin and Jonathan Ledecky, I have no illusions of the team being a "Public Owned" team to in which would let it's Shareholders "Know" what's going on.

 

[doublechili]

Lou is listed as week-to-week with general body soreness. If he can't continue the succession plan calls for him to be replaced by Prince Harry, Alexander Haig or Fredo Corleone, in that order.

Seriously, as Throttle said, we'll know when we know.

 

[crashthenet]

I think that is very true. This board is getting like the US political scene. The moderates get called out for being a socialist liberal or a maga conservative depending on one’s viewpoint.

There's much more at stake here.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

The team has obviously flat lined with Lou, this group has gone as far as it can go. Isles need to pivot or continue with the team on the fringes of making the playoffs. Team is not horrible but they are not great either. This is a no man's land in NHL terms.

 

[Torrey Redux]

The team has obviously flat lined with Lou, this group has gone as far as it can go. Isles need to pivot or continue with the team on the fringes of making the playoffs. Team is not horrible but they are not great either. This is a no man's land in NHL terms.

Not surprising that everyone wants Lou gone yesterday now, but the seeds of the current middling, directionless lineup and prospect and contract disasters (yes, disasters is the right word) were sown during the COVID runs and 90+ percent of the people now calling for his head were drinking the same Kool Aid that Lou was; that the Islanders were great and on the verge of a Stanley Cup. The problem is that we were never great and our runs, while nice and a good distraction during tough times, were as much the product of circumstance as anything else, and Lou buying into our supposed greatness by signing ill-advised, long-term NTC contracts while eviscerating our farm system was only going to end one way.

So, it's nice that pretty much everyone is now on the same page about Lou, but the fact is you all got what you wanted from him at the time and now is the time when we're all going to have to start paying for it.

 

[MJF]

So, it's nice that pretty much everyone is now on the same page about Lou, but the fact is you all got what you wanted from him at the time and now is the time when we're all going to have to start paying for it.

Should we have all disavowed Lou and those results from the start? The fact is that he came to a crossroads after the 2021 playoffs. He gave the team one more chance to get to the Finals. But in the offseason of 2021 instead of being able to add the necessary pieces to get them there, the best he could do was Zdeno Chara. When that team missed the playoffs that was the time for Lou to start breaking it down, not bringing in Lambert and running it back (yes RUNNING IT BACK) yet again. He misread what he had in the organization and mismanaged his salary cap in the 2 years post-covid.

As I've said in the past, I think Lou lost his objectivity with the team. He fell in love with his core because, in his words, "they play like men."

 

[doublechili]

the COVID runs

Wasn't just COVID bad enough?