Prospect Info: Logan Brown (C) Part 2

[topshelf15]

Stutzle made the NHL without ever “competing” in a training camp or dominating the AHL.

Wasnt there some deal that if he didnt play with us he would go back to the DEL or something

 

[OmniSens]

Wasnt there some deal that if he didnt play with us he would go back to the DEL or something

Yeah, I believe it was the NHL or back home.

 

[topshelf15]

Yeah, I believe it was the NHL or back home.

Then we saw him....Lol...That kid has to be on the most exiting wingers at 18 years old since Hossa

 

[Micklebot]

Stutzle made the NHL without ever “competing” in a training camp or dominating the AHL.

If he didn't look like he belonged at training camp he'd have been sent back to the DEL. He already had a full season of pro experience in the DEL so it's not like he hadn't paid any dues just because he didn't play AHL hockey. Coaches didn't just hand him a spot, he was one of our best wingers last season so he clearly deserved the spot based on his abilities,

 

[Sweatred]

If he didn't look like he belonged at training camp he'd have been sent back to the DEL. He already had a full season of pro experience in the DEL so it's not like he hadn't paid any dues just because he didn't play AHL hockey. Coaches didn't just hand him a spot, he was one of our best wingers last season so he clearly deserved the spot based on his abilities,

I love everything about Jimmy Stu ... but PD was on record saying he was going to play in the NHL before he stepped foot in Canada. He was OK on the PP last year but beyond that struggled at times. If he was a NCAA or CHL product I bet he does an extra developmental year. Anyway, no need to argue that point ... but if you look at these players you see verrrryy different pathways forced to the NHL.

1. Jimmy (none)
2. White (soft AHL, soft training camp)
3. Bath (full AHL development)
4. Brown (full AHL development)

My point isn't to suggest if Brown deserves a spot, its to suggest not every player grinds out the minors and forces the teams hand by beating out someone for a spot. Lots of players are given an easier path to the NHL (and cash) than what Brown got from the Sens.

 

[Micklebot]

I love everything about Jimmy Stu ... but PD was on record saying he was going to play in the NHL before he stepped foot in Canada. He was OK on the PP last year but beyond that struggled at times. If he was a NCAA or CHL product I bet he does an extra developmental year. Anyway, no need to argue that point ... but if you look at these players you see verrrryy different pathways forced to the NHL.

1. Jimmy (none)
2. White (soft AHL, soft training camp)
3. Bath (full AHL development)
4. Brown (full AHL development)

My point isn't to suggest if Brown deserves a spot, its to suggest not every player grinds out the minors and forces the teams hand by beating out someone for a spot. Lots of players are given an easier path to the NHL (and cash) than what Brown got from the Sens.

Brown got chances to play at the NHL level, the coach didn't like what he saw so only gave him 10 mins a night before scratching him and sending him back. Stützle, and White for that matter, impressed the coach enough to get big minutes and be trusted in important roles, they made the club not because their path was easier but because the coaches at the time liked how they played. You think White had a soft camp, I'd wager Boucher and Crawford disagreed. You think Stützle would have been sent back if he were a CHL player, well DJ Smith playing him every game he was available and being 6th in mins per game suggests they probable would not have. We've kept CHL guys and European guys up for extended looks before sending them down in the past, Formenton and Zibanejad come to mind, they didn't do enough to stick so they went back. Had Stützle not earned his spot he'd have been scratched a sent back to Europe or down to the AHL husk like we've done in the past

 

[Sweatred]

Brown got chances to play at the NHL level, the coach didn't like what he saw so only gave him 10 mins a night before scratching him and sending him back. Stützle, and White for that matter, impressed the coach enough to get big minutes and be trusted in important roles, they made the club not because their path was easier but because the coaches at the time liked how they played. You think White had a soft camp, I'd wager Boucher and Crawford disagreed. You think Stützle would have been sent back if he were a CHL player, well DJ Smith playing him every game he was available and being 6th in mins per game suggests they probable would not have. We've kept CHL guys and European guys up for extended looks before sending them down in the past, Formenton and Zibanejad come to mind, they didn't do enough to stick so they went back. Had Stützle not earned his spot he'd have been scratched a sent back to Europe or down to the AHL husk like we've done in the past

Ehhh.. okay. I get that you believe that.

 

[OD99]

Ehhh.. okay. I get that you believe that.

So what is your thought as to why it happened as you believe? They had something against Brown? They wanted to pump up Stutzle?

I think a dynamic 3rd overall pick coming in to a team that is maybe soft on forwards making the team is not shocking.

Colin White came off an impressive college career and showed the defensive desire to get a spot and even then he didn't have his true rookie year until 4 years after being drafted with some injuries contributing to that. White played 50 AHL games over 2 seasons and Logan has played 94 over 3 seasons.

Logan played 35 junior games the year after being drafted then followed up that campaign with only 32 games in the OHL the next. From there he played 56 (48 points) games in the AHL followed by 25 (28 points) the next.

I want Brown to be a good, consistent player for us and I hope he comes to camp and proves he needs a longer look but he hasn't done much to force the teams hand.

Play hard and stay on the ice are the 2 basic requirements to be an NHL player and he hasn't proven to deliver on either of those yet.

 

[Sweatred]

So what is your thought as to why it happened as you believe? They had something against Brown? They wanted to pump up Stutzle?

I think a dynamic 3rd overall pick coming in to a team that is maybe soft on forwards making the team is not shocking.

Colin White came off an impressive college career and showed the defensive desire to get a spot and even then he didn't have his true rookie year until 4 years after being drafted with some injuries contributing to that. White played 50 AHL games over 2 seasons and Logan has played 94 over 3 seasons.

Logan played 35 junior games the year after being drafted then followed up that campaign with only 32 games in the OHL the next. From there he played 56 (48 points) games in the AHL followed by 25 (28 points) the next.

I want Brown to be a good, consistent player for us and I hope he comes to camp and proves he needs a longer look but he hasn't done much to force the teams hand.

Play hard and stay on the ice are the 2 basic requirements to be an NHL player and he hasn't proven to deliver on either of those yet.

I’m by now means discounting his injuries and health … however I think Brown struggled breaking in at Center vs other players at wing… especially as an offensive only type Center. He gets the keys to the first or second line or nothing … white or Jimmy didn’t have to break in as a center.. white has been a useless Center the past two years. I assume a healthy Brown could lose most of his faceoffs and get 8 assists if he plays C2 and PP2 last season in White’s spot. I’d take a healthy Brown over White and Tierney anyway.

He checks lots of boxes that annoy or fail to motivate coaches to play him.

The point I am making is that lots of teams allows players of his skill to figure it out in the NHL. The Sens have chosen not too. We are paying White $5 million to learn the NHL game … that’s an easier path than what we’ve asked Logan to take.

 

[OD99]

I’m by now means discounting his injuries and health … however I think Brown struggled breaking in at Center vs other players at wing… especially as an offensive only type Center. He gets the keys to the first or second line or nothing … white or Jimmy didn’t have to break in as a center.. white has been a useless Center the past two years. I assume a healthy Brown could lose most of his faceoffs and get 8 assists if he plays C2 and PP2 last season in White’s spot. I’d take a healthy Brown over White and Tierney anyway.

He checks lots of boxes that annoy or fail to motivate coaches to play him.

The point I am making is that lots of teams allows players of his skill to figure it out in the NHL. The Sens have chosen not too. We are paying White $5 million to learn the NHL game … that’s an easier path than what we’ve asked Logan to take.

Check.

So it is back to a straight up White comparison. No doubt he is more offensively gifted than White and hope he can find a way to be motivated enough to give a proper effort...history suggests he won't but love to be wrong and have him making sweet passes for us in Ottawa this season.

 

[Sweatred]

Check.

So it is back to a straight up White comparison. No doubt he is more offensively gifted than White and hope he can find a way to be motivated enough to give a proper effort...history suggests he won't but love to be wrong and have him making sweet passes for us in Ottawa this season.

I think I also mentioned Jimmy and Tierney.

 

[OD99]

I think I also mentioned Jimmy and Tierney.

But they aren't really comparable in any way.

High scoring, dynamic winger bursting with charisma and has the skills to step in the NHL with other rookies and have a significant impact and an established veteran who can play up and down the line-up and is particularly valuable on PK.

It's fine - I get the frustration, just wanted clarity on what you felt was happening. We can agree to disagree despite my desire that Brown had been given a bit more of a chance earlier.

 

[Sweatred]

But they aren't really comparable in any way.

High scoring, dynamic winger bursting with charisma and has the skills to step in the NHL with other rookies and have a significant impact and an established veteran who can play up and down the line-up and is particularly valuable on PK.

It's fine - I get the frustration, just wanted clarity on what you felt was happening. We can agree to disagree despite my desire that Brown had been given a bit more of a chance earlier.

You are mistaken … I’ve never claimed they are “the same”…. I’ve suggested some players get easier and harder paths to the NHL.

The team hasn’t rolled out the red carpet for Brown. They have treated him more like Bath then White or Jimmy.

 

[SensPerpetualRebuild]

Wasn’t there a C spot available for Brown last training camp? But he had an underwhelming camp and got beat out by Norris?

 

[Ice-Tray]

Can anyone legitimately argue that Brown is going to out work Norris or Pinto for a shot at centre ice on our team?

Sweet passes is all good, but if you can’t win a board battle, or match pace up and down the ice, you aren’t going to get a chance to make those passes at ES.

The thing holding Brown back has always been the same. Coaches sugar coat it by calling it “NHL pace” but really it comes down to determination, competitiveness, and courage. Those three things drive a player to compete for time and space against other hungry players looking to make your life miserable.

It’s not for everyone, and those three traits are very hard to teach a person. It is why so many young players can coast on high level skills all the way up to the pro game, and then can’t crack the NHL. Everyone has some high level skills in the NHL, the most common separator amongst the non superstar players is what goes in between the ears.

 

[Sweatred]

Wasn’t there a C spot available for Brown last training camp? But he had an underwhelming camp and got beat out by Norris?

Id say Norris clearly beat out Logan… I doubt Tierney, White, or Arti outplayed him and he was just a victim of contracts/waiver eligibility. … combined with whatever his health problems were.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Id say Norris clearly beat out Logan… I doubt Tierney, White, or Arti outplayed him and he was just a victim of contracts/waiver eligibility. … combined with whatever his health problems were.

None of the three guys you mention have issues with NHL pace. That’s Brown’s issue.

Personally I enjoyed Arti. He was a big centre who was surprisingly skilled. Late in his career no doubt but he was crafty and made nice plays, just not as quick up and down the ice. He was hard to move off the puck, and him and Daddy had some nice chemistry.

I won’t get into it with you about White for obvious reasons.

Tierney gets a lot of flack, and he isn’t the toughest when it comes to board battles, but he does push the pace into the defensive, and offensive zone, is a great PK option, and has been a steady middle six point producer who works hard.

 

[Xspyrit]

Even if you forget about the injury trouble and the very small amount of games Logan has played since covid... the way they are building the team, he just doesn't seem to fit here

I said the same for Bobby Ryan, Anthony Duclair, Rudolfs Balcers... and I think Erik Brannstrom won't ever really fit too.

Heck do you think they would have signed Mike Hoffman if it was possible? Don't even think so. He's just not their type.

Right or wrong, there's building this in a particular way and I don't think a guy like Logan Brown fit the plans. Remember he was picked BEFORE the rebuild. Strategy has changed since. Should have been traded last season when he didn't make the team out of camp.

It will be the exact same situation next season if Brannstrom doesn't "fully graduate"

We seem to love our "diminishing assets"

Zbad + 2nd rounder for Brassard + 7th rounder

Zbad+ 2nd rounder for Gustavsson, Sogaard, JBD, and Ian Cole, and a 7th rounder.
Soogard a flip of second rounders , Sens moving up in the second round cost them a third.
Ian Cole traded for a 3rd, used as part of the trade to get Zaitsev and C. Brown.

1. The New York Rangers' second-round pick went to the Ottawa Senators as the result of a trade on June 22, 2019 that sent Florida's second-round pick and Pittsburgh's third-round pick both in 2019 (44th and 83rd overall) to Carolina in exchange for this pick.[26]

So basically it is Zbad for Gustavsson, Sogaard, JBD after the flip of picks to move up.

You're not considering that the main pick used to draft Mads Sogaard was the 2nd round pick (#44 OA) acquired in the Erik Karlsson trade. The 3rd (#83 OA) from the Brassard trade was the pick used to move up to 37th OA and draft Sogaard.

 

[Sweatred]

None of the three guys you mention have issues with NHL pace. That’s Brown’s issue.

Personally I enjoyed Arti. He was a big centre who was surprisingly skilled. Late in his career no doubt but he was crafty and made nice plays, just not as quick up and down the ice. He was hard to move off the puck, and him and Daddy had some nice chemistry.

I won’t get into it with you about White for obvious reasons.

Tierney gets a lot of flack, and he isn’t the toughest when it comes to board battles, but he does push the pace into the defensive, and offensive zone, is a great PK option, and has been a steady middle six point producer who works hard.

I understand what you are trying to say but the AHL is full of guys with NHL “pace” … it’s far from the single skill that determines success at the NHL level.

Tierney and Arti were pretty slow last year … I’m not sure they were any faster than Brown. Their experience no doubt inflates their pace but Brown doesn’t have 5 years in the league.

 

[Ice-Tray]

I understand what you are trying to say but the AHL is full of guys with NHL “pace” … it’s far from the single that determines success at the NHL level.

Absolutely, you need some transferable skill.

As X noted, to crack this Senators team as a kid you need a high pace game. It’s the one thing Brown is missing unfortunately. Well, that and staying healthy.

 

[Xspyrit]

Absolutely, you need some transferable skill.

As X noted, to crack this Senators team as a kid you need a high pace game. It’s the one thing Brown is missing unfortunately. Well, that and staying healthy.

Not just the high pace (Hoffman/Duclair are really fast/quick) but those guys are a bit more "all skill/finesse" and maybe not enough engaged physically. But it seems that Balcers has worked on getting stronger and has been improving this element in his game

Hoffman is the posterboy of that. His skill is impressive but his physical engagement and work without the puck won't work for every team. You kinda have to shelter guys like that. Personally, I wouldn't mind having 1 or 2 forwards like that and maybe 1 D-man as well, just to elevate the overall skill/ability of the team, which is also very important IMO.

 

[Cosmix]

Not just the high pace (Hoffman/Duclair are really fast/quick) but those guys are a bit more "all skill/finesse" and maybe not enough engaged physically. But it seems that Balcers has worked on getting stronger and has been improving this element in his game

Hoffman is the posterboy of that. His skill is impressive but his physical engagement and work without the puck won't work for every team. You kinda have to shelter guys like that. Personally, I wouldn't mind having 1 or 2 forwards like that and maybe 1 D-man as well, just to elevate the overall skill/ability of the team, which is also very important IMO.

I miss Duclair's speed and Hoffman's shot. We still need more of both to succeed.

 

[JD1]

I miss Duclair's speed and Hoffman's shot. We still need more of both to succeed.

I liked Duke. Never cared for Hoffman and I suspect he was getting dealt regardless of the locker room breakdown

Hoffman will be another reason the Habs will be east to play against this year

 

[Korpse]

I miss Duclair's speed and Hoffman's shot. We still need more of both to succeed.

Don't miss either players tendency to be on the wrong side of the puck. We need skilled players but not ones who play the game like they did.

 

[JD1]

Don't miss either players tendency to be on the wrong side of the puck. We need skilled players but not ones who play the game like they did.

What's amazing about that is they teach kids at 10 which side of the puck to be on