You're so wrong it's unbelievable. 2013 to 2016 Clark didn't have a first rounder. He didn't have a second rounder in two of those years. He found Shesterkin, Graves, Buchnevich and Duclair. Gettinger looks to have promise as does Wall. In 2011 and 2012 they didn't have a ton of picks but they drafted Skjei 28th and Miller 15th. I see you completely discount the fact Clark and his staff probably were largely responsible for bringing DeAngelo here. Or Zibanejad here. If you take a look at the last 3 years, you can see what your scouts actually can do when you have your first round picks or even some extra picks instead of throwing them all away on go for it now deals. In the four years Clark didn't have a first rounder he found what looks to be a franchise goalie and a forward that we hope is finally a top 6 guy. Graves looks to be a very good d man who unfortunately, Gorton screwed up with by trading him. When you get rid of y our first rounders, you have to take huge chances in the later rounds which usually doesn't work out.
Player Discussion Lias Andersson: Part III
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You're so wrong it's unbelievable. 2013 to 2016 Clark didn't have a first rounder. He didn't have a second rounder in two of those years. He found Shesterkin, Graves, Buchnevich and Duclair. Gettinger looks to have promise as does Wall. In 2011 and 2012 they didn't have a ton of picks but they drafted Skjei 28th and Miller 15th. I see you completely discount the fact Clark and his staff probably were largely responsible for bringing DeAngelo here. Or Zibanejad here. If you take a look at the last 3 years, you can see what your scouts actually can do when you have your first round picks or even some extra picks instead of throwing them all away on go for it now deals. In the four years Clark didn't have a first rounder he found what looks to be a franchise goalie and a forward that we hope is finally a top 6 guy. Graves looks to be a very good d man who unfortunately, Gorton screwed up with by trading him. When you get rid of y our first rounders, you have to take huge chances in the later rounds which usually doesn't work out.
This board has long had this absurd idea that other teams scouts consistently find good to great players in rounds other than the 1st. It doesn't happen very often for all teams. Thus why it's so important to keep your first round picks. Look at the Bruins for example. Since 2013, Pasternak was there one great pick. They had the 13th, 14th and 15th picks in the first round. Two of those prospects stink and the other is a role player.
haohmaru
boomshakalaka
When you use examples like Tim Gettinger, Tyler Wall and players we didn’t even draft as your evidence that someone has done a good job drafting the past 13 years, something is seriously wrong.
Bringing this over from roster building;
My personal reading of the Andersson article is that there is only one fact present in the entire thing and it’s being interpreted and colored significantly by the author to generate clicks and buzz.
JD asked Andersson if he’d like to come over for training camp and Andersson said I don’t feel ready yet.
Reading between the lines and not getting sucked in by all the excess the author included of his own making, that’s really all I get out of this, and I don’t know that there’s anything wrong with that.
Andersson did well in his limited games in Sweden. He seems to be “healing” from whatever his physical, mental, emotional issues were, and hopefully maturing. And JD seems to be handling him well. I don’t know that coming back and trying to win a spot on the playoff roster would have done anything for his confidence or overall progress, and if he doesn’t feel that he’s 100% over whatever crap he was dealing with - even if it was entirely of his own making (and I’m slow to say “entirely”) - than let him stay home until the next regular season.
I would be MUCH quicker to judge if he turned down an invite to the main camp before the next regular season. JD doesn’t seem to have an issue with Lias’ response; he may have even expected it. For all we know, he expected Andersson to stay put but made the invitation as a means of saying “the door is open, you’re still welcome”.
Andersson’s odds of panning out are admittedly low but this is a non-story to me. Just a way to generate clicks and debate while there’s nothing else to report on. Like I said, if this was main camp and Andersson refused an invite, I’d be surprised. I think this is a big nothing burger.
My personal reading of the Andersson article is that there is only one fact present in the entire thing and it’s being interpreted and colored significantly by the author to generate clicks and buzz.
JD asked Andersson if he’d like to come over for training camp and Andersson said I don’t feel ready yet.
Reading between the lines and not getting sucked in by all the excess the author included of his own making, that’s really all I get out of this, and I don’t know that there’s anything wrong with that.
Andersson did well in his limited games in Sweden. He seems to be “healing” from whatever his physical, mental, emotional issues were, and hopefully maturing. And JD seems to be handling him well. I don’t know that coming back and trying to win a spot on the playoff roster would have done anything for his confidence or overall progress, and if he doesn’t feel that he’s 100% over whatever crap he was dealing with - even if it was entirely of his own making (and I’m slow to say “entirely”) - than let him stay home until the next regular season.
I would be MUCH quicker to judge if he turned down an invite to the main camp before the next regular season. JD doesn’t seem to have an issue with Lias’ response; he may have even expected it. For all we know, he expected Andersson to stay put but made the invitation as a means of saying “the door is open, you’re still welcome”.
Andersson’s odds of panning out are admittedly low but this is a non-story to me. Just a way to generate clicks and debate while there’s nothing else to report on. Like I said, if this was main camp and Andersson refused an invite, I’d be surprised. I think this is a big nothing burger.
KirkAlbuquerque
#WeNeverGetAGoodCoach
McAvoy was a home run in 2016 also. They completely beefed the 2015 draft so they’re lucky they got Pasta and Charlie. Just goes to show you. I bet going into that 2015 draft they thought they were going to end up with 3 studs. It’s considered the best draft in a generation yet 3 of the first 6 picks were underwhelming.
The draft is a total crapshoot and player development is underrated.
NoQuitInNewMexico
Registered User
It's (technically) the playoffs and our forward depth isn't very good, so I don't know what his angle is here. Whatever.
Boston is just an obscure example to use. Pastrnak and McAvoy would be the two best players Gordie Clark has drafted in the past ten years, and probably ever (McAvoy doesn’t blow me away but we haven’t drafted a defenseman of his caliber during the Gordie era). In the case of Pastrnak, quality far exceeds quantity. Duclair, Buchnevich and Graves doesn’t return you Pastrnak.
And for all the praise we give Gordie for drafting Buchnevich, Jake Debrusk has been more productive. Another odd example to highlight by the OP. Boston is a wildly successful team built off the back of their drafting and player development.
The draft is a crapshoot and all teams mess up. We just mess up more than most and we’re essentially the only team in the league that hasn’t hit the jackpot.
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Dude, read and research. Try looking at the first round picks he's had the past few years when they actually kept their picks. Kakko was a no brainer obviously. Kravtsov is to be determined. Some worry there. Chytil looks like a steal at 21. Andersson has game but mentally he fell apart. Still not giving up on him. Miller looks to be a kid with top 4 d potential. Lundkvist was a steal for the ages IMO. He will be a star much like Fox. Non first rounders. Barron was a steal in the 6th round. Keane was a steal in the 3rd round and netted us a prospect tearing up the AHL with goals who was a 1st round pick and is 6'4 with wheels. Robertson is showing high upside. So is Zac Jones. Wall was one of the best college goalies. His upside is very high. Are you complaining about Clark finding a franchise goalie in Shesterkin in the 4th round? Or scouting and signing Georgiev who could start on a lot of teams in the league? Of course not because you would rather close your eyes and just say Clark stinks. Rangers strength scouting wise is finding goalies and defenseman. They use those to often acquire young forwards. I think they could do better drafting forwards but teams usually give up a lot more for goalies and defenseman than they do forwards. Gauthier for Keane is a perfect example of that.
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The fact that Clark and his staff were probably the driving force for getting Zibanejad and DeAngelo makes up for a Andersson and some draft pick misses 10 fold. You don't want to seem to accept that. Drafting players is one part of a scouts jobs. Looking at other players teams drafted and trying to get your team to deal for them before they break out is also a part of their job. The Rangers are considered one of most talented young teams in hockey and all you are doing is whining and complaining about the scouts.
What you are doing with Clark is the same nonsense I hear with our fan base about our defenseman. Every little mistake or questionable decision a good part of our fan base whines, cries and vents on our defenseman. You would have thought Skjei was the worst defenseman in the league listening to some our fan base and he brought back a first round pick. Where were you bashing Clark when the Rangers asked for Lindgren in the Rick Nash deal? You don't think Clark and his staff were responsible for telling Gorton this is a guy we need to get? Granted Gorton has Boston ties and I'm sure Lindgren was on his radar but you have a scouting staff for a reason. To help your GM.
What you are doing with Clark is the same nonsense I hear with our fan base about our defenseman. Every little mistake or questionable decision a good part of our fan base whines, cries and vents on our defenseman. You would have thought Skjei was the worst defenseman in the league listening to some our fan base and he brought back a first round pick. Where were you bashing Clark when the Rangers asked for Lindgren in the Rick Nash deal? You don't think Clark and his staff were responsible for telling Gorton this is a guy we need to get? Granted Gorton has Boston ties and I'm sure Lindgren was on his radar but you have a scouting staff for a reason. To help your GM.
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I agree with the rest of your post, but Debrusk has had 43, 42 and 35 points in three “full” seasons, with 35 in 65 this past year.
Buch had 20 in a half season his first year, but has had 43, 38 and 46 in the three full seasons since, with 46 in 68 this past season.
Buch has been on a worse team, has the better most recent season and better career points per game, even including 20 in his rookie year.
Debrusk has not been more productive. Nonsense. Debrusk was also a fairly high first round pick. Buchnevich was taken in the third round. I would hope that Debrusk would end up being more productive. He was taken 14th overall in the draft. You vastly overrated Boston's player development and drafting. The backbone of their team for years was Chara and they did nothing to develop him or draft him. He was developed when they traded for them. Their drafting overall the past 5 to 8 years is below average. Pasternak has bailed them out. The Bruins are essentially a one line team. If that line doesn't dominate, they don't win.
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Sure, the stats are closer and may favor Buch, but we’re splitting hairs here. And for the record, Buchnevich has played with far better line mates than Debrusk during his career. It’s neck and neck.
Either way, my point there was that we can’t praise one guy and criticize the other for essentially drafting identical players production-wise. We’re using Buchnevich as a positive on Clark’s resume and Debrusk as a negative on Boston’s resume, which is completely ridiculous and is a microcosm of the mental gymnastics that people go through to defend Clark.
Draft position makes Clark look better in this particular instance, but far far worse in nearly every other one. I don’t see him nabbing Charlie McAvoy’s and David Pastrnaks with the picks he’s had in that range.
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A first line built entirely through the draft, with the highest pick being in the late first. We haven’t even drafted a single, bonafide first liner.
It’s like all logic goes out the window when some of you defend Gordie Clark. Using a bunch of question marks that are currently in our prospect pool as evidence that he has done well during his 13 year tenure as our director of player personnel is a pathetically weak argument.
I agree with your post. I just think Buch gets underrated around here.
Yeah, Clark has made some nice picks over the years but has also had whole drafts that just suck. I outlined it in another thread, or maybe earlier here. Those "good finds" are great but the inability to find even a single true star is troubling.
(I'm excluding Shesterkin because I'm talking about skaters.)
I also don't know about Bobrov who everyone thinks is great. We've taken more Europeans since he joined, but overall I don't know if we've done better in that area.
But, people are going to believe what they want to believe. It's easy to talk yourself into liking things or believing all is well.
the thing that makes it so hard to judge the performance of the scouting staff is the length of time that it takes to truly judge a draft. to an extent it is the shiny new toy syndrome...every year when you see prospect rankings people think the most recent draft picks are better than the prospects that you already had. and lots of times it is because we know less about those new picks...but reality is that most picks don't make it so overtime the overall results trend negatively.
bobrov joined the team in 2015-16, since the 2016 draft we have drafted the following players out of europe: Tarmo Reunanen, Lias Andersson, Filip Chytil, Calle Sjalin, Dominik Lakatos, Patrik virta, Vitali Kravtsov, Nils Lundqvist,Olof Lindbom, Jakob Ragnarsson, Lauri Pajuniemi, Simon Kjellberg, Kaapo Kakko, Karl Henriksson, Leevi Aaltonen and Adam Edstrom
there is some pretty good prospects there that most people think very highly of. so right now that is view extremely positively and therefore Bobrov is getting his props. but to date, Andersson, Chytil and Kakko are the only guys that have played in the NHL...so how will that list be viewed in 3 years, 5 years etc? It is very possible that in a few years the rangers will have chytil, kakko, kravtsov, lundkvist, pajuniemi and henriksson all part of the team playing big roles and bobrov will be celebrated by rangers fans as the guy that helped rebuild the franchise and turn us into contenders. but its also possible that the majority of those guys never play in NA and we later reflect on those drafts as 'we got nothing'
SA16
Sixstring
The difference between teams scouting departments and drafting is 99% luck and then it's easy to make a story fit around it about how they were good/how they were bad.
The Bruins found Pastrnak at 25. Did they do anything amazing to do that? I see places with him ranked 20,22,26,18,17,23. Seems like they just took the guy most thought was the best around there and happened to get lucky he had some insane post draft development.
The Lightning found Point at 79. If they thought he could be this good would they have taken 3 guys ahead of him and risked someone else getting him? Of course not. And I see tons of sources ranking Point way above that.
The keys to drafting is to just not do anything stupid and not to assume you are smarter than everyone else. If we could see every teams list and 30 teams had a guy ranked ~50 and the Rangers had this same guy ranked at 15 which do you think is more likely to be right and which is more likely to be wrong? The difference between some random guy with no experience (i.e. me) scouting and the teams scouting departments is massive. The difference between the individual teams is negligible and there is no way you can know which is best even by looking at past history.
The Bruins found Pastrnak at 25. Did they do anything amazing to do that? I see places with him ranked 20,22,26,18,17,23. Seems like they just took the guy most thought was the best around there and happened to get lucky he had some insane post draft development.
The Lightning found Point at 79. If they thought he could be this good would they have taken 3 guys ahead of him and risked someone else getting him? Of course not. And I see tons of sources ranking Point way above that.
The keys to drafting is to just not do anything stupid and not to assume you are smarter than everyone else. If we could see every teams list and 30 teams had a guy ranked ~50 and the Rangers had this same guy ranked at 15 which do you think is more likely to be right and which is more likely to be wrong? The difference between some random guy with no experience (i.e. me) scouting and the teams scouting departments is massive. The difference between the individual teams is negligible and there is no way you can know which is best even by looking at past history.
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luck is definitely a HUGE part of it. and thats a big reason why draft picks are valuable and you want to have more picks, not less. not that all those picks will work out but the more picks you have better odds of being lucky with a few...
people also tend to ignore what happens after the player is drafted as well...in many ways player development is more important than drafting. there are tons of players that were equal when drafted but then ended up having drastically different careers. its way too simplistic to say 'you took the wrong guy' and it is likely more about what happened with each player after that...
lastly, this isn't directed you personally cause lots of people say it, but i truly despise the concept of 'trying to be the smartest in the room'...fans use that anytime their team goes against the public draft guides that are not done by people that work with the teams and have a 1/2 paragraph on each player. we, as fans, typically have .00000000001% of the info that teams have on players. if following those rankings was the key to success, teams would save their $$, fire the entire scouting staff and just buy all the draft guides and pick based on that.
but those guide are wrong about players just as often as teams are, following them doesn't mean you will be successful, it just means that your fans might complain less on draft day. and if that is the goal of the organization you've got problems....
and people only complain when their team goes 'off the board' and the pick doesn't work. you rarely hear complaints about all the times teams went 'off the board' and they were right. In 2003, the red line report had Hugh Jessiman as the 4th best player in the draft (compared him to joe thornton) the rangers certainly weren't the smartest ones in the room when they followed that ranking...
Building through the draft is ideal, and necessary to a large extent.
We, however, have not done a great job of it and yet, we are very, very lucky for two reasons:
In 2016 we acquired Mika Zibanejad who had just turned 23. He was coming off of a 51 point season as well. Fast forward he is an elite point per game, two way #1C. How often do you acquire a #1C that young? We were lucky to acquire him and lucky in his development. He JUST turned 27 during the hockey freeze.
In 2017 we acquired a 22 year old Tony DeAngelo. Fast forward and he’s a ~60pt right handed D who finished 4th among all NHL D in scoring. He’s still 24. How often do you acquire possible point per game power play QB dmen at age 22? We were lucky to acquire him and lucky with his development. He’s not too shabby defensively either.
With those two pieces, which usually come from the draft because they’re such commodities, we lucked out and get to circumvent some of our poor drafting luck. We also lucked into a #2 overall pick and with any luck at all, he’ll at least be a genuine first line forward.
Panarin has fit like a glove. Shesterkin looks like the real deal. Picking up Fox is looking like a godsend.
Kakko (shouldn’t have to worry too much) taking a step is obviously necessary. If both Chytil and Kravstov can reach 2nd line ceilings we’re incredibly blessed with the foundation we have.
We do have LHD prospects but I don’t think they’re close enough nor sure things. We need to look at this position very carefully from here on. While Miller looks like a great prospect, we can’t bet the future or our window on him. We need a partner for Trouba who isn’t dead weight.
Everywhere else, the roster just looks like a matter of time and patience, and hopefully a little luck on Kravstov and Chytil.
Panarin - Strome/Chytil - Kakko
Kreider - Zibanejad - Buchnevich
Kravstov - Chytil/Strome - Gauthier/???
Lemieux - Howden/Andersson - ???/Gauthier
Howden probably needs to be updated to a real defensive specialist. Andersson probably never plays for us. We could do with upgrades on the 4th line. Maybe a steady vet for the third. Strome, I feel, has become part of the plans, so whether you’re satisfied with him or not, that’s likely what we’ve got. We have an entire right side of the defense and Lindgren. We have goaltending galore. Even if Miller made the jump to the NHL on the third pair next year, our window could be open by 2022. The only place I feel we glaringly need to address is a top 4 LHD.
We, however, have not done a great job of it and yet, we are very, very lucky for two reasons:
In 2016 we acquired Mika Zibanejad who had just turned 23. He was coming off of a 51 point season as well. Fast forward he is an elite point per game, two way #1C. How often do you acquire a #1C that young? We were lucky to acquire him and lucky in his development. He JUST turned 27 during the hockey freeze.
In 2017 we acquired a 22 year old Tony DeAngelo. Fast forward and he’s a ~60pt right handed D who finished 4th among all NHL D in scoring. He’s still 24. How often do you acquire possible point per game power play QB dmen at age 22? We were lucky to acquire him and lucky with his development. He’s not too shabby defensively either.
With those two pieces, which usually come from the draft because they’re such commodities, we lucked out and get to circumvent some of our poor drafting luck. We also lucked into a #2 overall pick and with any luck at all, he’ll at least be a genuine first line forward.
Panarin has fit like a glove. Shesterkin looks like the real deal. Picking up Fox is looking like a godsend.
Kakko (shouldn’t have to worry too much) taking a step is obviously necessary. If both Chytil and Kravstov can reach 2nd line ceilings we’re incredibly blessed with the foundation we have.
We do have LHD prospects but I don’t think they’re close enough nor sure things. We need to look at this position very carefully from here on. While Miller looks like a great prospect, we can’t bet the future or our window on him. We need a partner for Trouba who isn’t dead weight.
Everywhere else, the roster just looks like a matter of time and patience, and hopefully a little luck on Kravstov and Chytil.
Panarin - Strome/Chytil - Kakko
Kreider - Zibanejad - Buchnevich
Kravstov - Chytil/Strome - Gauthier/???
Lemieux - Howden/Andersson - ???/Gauthier
Howden probably needs to be updated to a real defensive specialist. Andersson probably never plays for us. We could do with upgrades on the 4th line. Maybe a steady vet for the third. Strome, I feel, has become part of the plans, so whether you’re satisfied with him or not, that’s likely what we’ve got. We have an entire right side of the defense and Lindgren. We have goaltending galore. Even if Miller made the jump to the NHL on the third pair next year, our window could be open by 2022. The only place I feel we glaringly need to address is a top 4 LHD.
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Well, on the "very positive" part I'd put Chytil and Lundkvist, but even that could change. Pajuniemi, I'm still skeptical of. Andersson looks like a bust. Reunanen shows promise. Henriksson had a mediocre year IMO. Lindbom is trending towards bust. Edstrom is interesting. Aaltonen has skill but did nothing last season and still seems like a huge long shot. Sjalin can't stay healthy and has regressed, Ragnarsson hasn't shown a lot, Virta and Lakatos are already gone.
It's a combination of potentially really good picks, picks that have some upside but are far off, bad picks, and terrible picks. So IDK, I don't feel very positive about him. Cautiously optimistic maybe.
On your general point though, of wait and see before we can say anything definitive, I agree. I'm just saying that when I look at what he's done, if it's better than what we had before or just feels better because of quantity.
Also I don't count Kakko because that pick was a given.
Stupid question and totally off the board, but would anybody know (looking at you AK) if Lias has a girlfriend?
