Confirmed with Link: Lefebvre relieved of his duties. Search for a new coach in Laval thread

[Vachon23]

Eric Veilleux is coming ! he's a really good friend of Martin Lapointe..

 

[Miller Time]

I missed it but during the noon hour, heard Marinaro and guests comment it. Apparently, Lebeau claims that the Habs' issue is 85% drafting and 15% development and how the AHL coaching staff was not given much talent to work with.

The foxhole is deep....

Excuses and avoiding accountability is the bread and butter of this foxhole group... Pathetic

 

[Miller Time]

I didn't hear the interview but he was on French radio earlier and he was saying that the real issue is drafting. He spoke about development being dependant on the players they are given to work with. He's not wrong. But he said it's 85% drafting and 15% development. Don't agree at all with his percentages.

I also believe Lefebvre once told him that he cares a little too much about winning in the AHL and should be more focused on developing. God forbid you have someone on your staff that pushes the guys to win. Like it won't help in their development.

I understand that the main goal is to develop these kids to take the next step. But how could you sit and not care about the score and wins and losses all that much? If the coach doesn't think it's a priority, why should the players?

On the french radio, he said that almost right away, he can see if a player has the tools for the NHL. Others he can tell real quick that they don't. And then there are those in between, who can go either way. He placed Andrighetto, Carr, and Hudon in the third category. He mentioned that Carr has looked good in the little he was given and that Hudon proved after this year that he is an NHL player. But at the time, he wasn't sure which way they would go. He said that the Habs don't have that elite talent where they know for sure he is destined for a great NHL career.

Sounds like someone who understands very little about athlete development...

Great reflection of how little correlation there is btw "experience" and competence

 

[OldCraig71]

I missed it but during the noon hour, heard Marinaro and guests comment it. Apparently, Lebeau claims that the Habs' issue is 85% drafting and 15% development and how the AHL coaching staff was not given much talent to work with.

Gee, I wonder if anyone in this steaming pile of dung of a franchise takes responsibility for anything?

 

[Spearmint Rhino]

The problem is it's not the same ratio for all players, some it might be 85% drafting and 15% development, others its 15% drafting and 85% development. As much as they're thought of as pros and expect them to all respond in the same way that's not how it works

Gallagher and Galchenyuk will never respond in the same way to the same method of development/coaching but that's what I think this Habs 'philosophy' is, moulding 'soldiers' to have no personality or creativity, putting square pegs in round hole doesn't work

 

[Runner77]

Good post...

I just know that scouts typically follow direction from above...case and point

The Ottawa Senators, under Bryan Murray I believe, instituted a very strict policy of not drafting Russian players. The last time they drafted one was in 2007.

That means if the Ottawa Senators end up drafting 2nd this year as they're slated too...you can guarantee they're not drafted Schvenikov (unless things have changed and i'm not aware).

So even if there's a scout in the Senators organziation who believes that he's the best player at that pick, they're not going to pick him.

The same applies to scouts in Montreal...if there's a focus on drafting "character" or "attitude", then that's what the overall tone of the drafting is going to be and I think you can see that in several picks over the years (though they seemed to have put that aside somewhat last year).

Thanks. I totally agree that culture plays a role. Where the gatekeeper to the final decisions has a slant that curtails high IQ, talent and skating in favor of some cockamaney intangible that can mean a ton of things, then yeah, you get a lot of potentially valuable assets that make their way to the teams picking next.

There is also a strategic element, obviously in respect of what to do and when and that is dictated by risk assessment. And here having quality scouts help you manage your risk, in conjunction with your tolerance for risk. The Habs seems to prefer to play it safe in their later rounds when they should be taking chances with higher reward assets.

 

[Le Barron de HF]

Eric Veilleux is coming ! he's a really good friend of Martin Lapointe..

I'm not a close follower of the Q, but I would like to believe there are better guys than him. Yes he won the MC (despite losing early in the playoffs) but his résumé is far from impressive. Lots of busts (Paradis, Roussel, Kabanov).

 

[scrubadam]

I agree on most of the things you wrote but I would not say that this team was "loaded". Lots of early call ups and injuries.

Well loaded in the sense that they brought in a some vets at the beginning of the year. And they were actually decent to start. I guess things fell off with all the injuries and call ups but I think the team should of been better based on who was signed/assigned to the team to start the year.

 

[Vachon23]

I'm not a close follower of the Q, but I would like to believe there are better guys than him. Yes he won the MC (despite losing early in the playoffs) but his résumé is far from impressive. Lots of busts (Paradis, Roussel, Kabanov).

he has a good resume .. he's been in the final 3 times his team are always competitive. Ask Baie-Comeau fans if they missed him.. there going any where now

 

[durojean]

and you think he led this team in scoring because he wasn't coached by Lefebvre? It took him 6 pro seasons to lead the team in scoring (he actually finished 2nd, but let's ignore that for one second) and you think he finally reached this lofty goal, 6yrs after making his pro debut.

Because he wasn't coached by Lefebvre?


He did have a very good rookie season...do you think that had something to do with his own talent and the fact he played on an extremely talented team and was insulated with guys like Hedman & Strahlman?

or do you think he had a very good rookie season exclusively because he wasn't coached by Lefebvre?


I think you're exaggerating by saying he had a 'great' rookie season...but either way, do you think, if he had played under SL, everything he learned prior with Frolunda, would of been wiped away?


Mete could very well, and IMO, should end up in the AHL next year...he played this year because Bergevin completely mismanaged this team. I don't see the correlation you're making between him and Lefebvre.


Yes, Juulsen looks to be a second pairing guy...like it or not, he DID play in the AHL. I suppose if Juulsen had come up, and looked awful, you'd be pointing to the 30 games he played under SL as a reason why, no doubt.

But since that's not the case....


Morgan Ellis? STOP
Scherbak? Yes, he's a year behind, mostly because he's been hurt every year since he turned pro
Leblanc? Didn't want to play professional hockey
Tinordi? Sucked...AHL coaches don't perform miracles
Beaulieu? Progress? at what point has Beaulieu progressed since he was drafted? He's the EXACT player today, that we saw when he was drafted
McCarron? Did you think McCarron was going to be an NHL scorer before SL got his hands on him?
DLR? Don't agree there, he's progressed, albeit very slowly...but he's starting to turn a corner

What about Hudon? Andrighetto? Pateryn? Lernout?


No one has said the opposite - that's not my point.

Yes SL is a terrible coach and should of been fired years ago...

I think you're fooling yourself if you think another coach could of gotten more out of the players you listed though.

A lot of excuses to explain a lack of progression from the players. Fact is, we don't know if a better environment and a better coaching staff could of help.

I choose to believe it could.

 

[Sorinth]

You serious now? Wow lol

You point point the finger at someone, and then say "defensive much"??


What conclusion do you THINK I've reached?

I'm curious, because it's clear to me, you have no freaking clue.

You see my username and you're assuming.

But tell me, what's my conclusion?

Every post you make where you don't explain why you didn't include more years just proves my point. Rather then provide an explanation, you want to make it out to be me vs you because it deflects from the actual point.

 

[417]

A lot of excuses to explain a lack of progression from the players. Fact is, we don't know if a better environment and a better coaching staff could of help.

I choose to believe it could.

Bad drafting it's not an excuse

 

[Le Barron de HF]

he has a good resume .. he's been in the final 3 times his team are always competitive. Ask Baie-Comeau fans if they missed him.. there going any where now

I look at more than the record. I care about the NHLers he's produced. Bournival was one, Zykov could be another.

 

[Vachon23]

I look at more than the record. I care about the NHLers he's produced. Bournival was one, Zykov could be another.

yess but he didn't develop them when they where in the AHL

 

[WeThreeKings]

Bad drafting it's not an excuse

The regression of 80% of the players he coached is an indication that bad developmental coaching had more to do with it.

Source: I've seen a lot of junior games, I've seen a lot of AHL games and I've seen every training camp game since Lefebvre has been employed.

 

[Miller Time]

Bad drafting it's not an excuse

Of course it is.

Drafting can't be separated from development. Even in the top of the first round, "sure" bets don't pan out.

Yakupov, Daigle, Stefan, Cleary... These weren't errors in drafting, they were talented players who didn't develop into what they had the potential for.

Pointing a finger at one part of the equation is the epitome of excuse making and reflective of the loser mentality (and attitude) that has infected our organization under bergevin

 

[417]

Every post you make where you don't explain why you didn't include more years just proves my point. Rather then provide an explanation, you want to make it out to be me vs you because it deflects from the actual point.

I've spent the last 48hrs shredding the Habs drafting strategy under Bergrvin...

It's not my fault you selectively ignore that.

I looked at both the years that preceded Bergrvin AND the years under Bergevin to criticise their drafting as the reason why there's not more homegrown talent on this team

You don't want to see it...that's on you.

 

[417]

The regression of 80% of the players he coached is an indication that bad developmental coaching had more to do with it.

Source: I've seen a lot of junior games, I've seen a lot of AHL games and I've seen every training camp game since Lefebvre has been employed.

You think they regressed...I think they topped out because they just weren't that good.

Whether it's the more of the drafting that's the problem or the coaching/development is not the main thing for me.

It's just acknowledging that both of those areas haven't been good, and it's not JUST under Bergevin's regime, you can go back under Gauthier as well and towards the end of Gainey's time.

I don't know why that's so contentious

 

[WeThreeKings]

You think they regressed...I think they topped out because they just weren't that good.

Whether it's the more of the drafting that's the problem or the coaching/development is not the main thing for me.

It's just acknowledging that both of those areas haven't been good, and it's not JUST under Bergevin's regime, you can go back under Gauthier as well and towards the end of Gainey's time.

I don't know why that's so contentious

That's not contentious. They haven't done nearly good enough at the draft table but they've also botched the development of a lot of players as well.

When I say scorched earth rebuild. I mean that I don't want anyone who's breathed the same air as Bergevin left with the team.

 

[Vachon23]

Sylvain Lefebvre, Larry Carriere, Shane Churla and Timmins should all be replaced

 

[badbrains]

 

[beh3moth]

I agree with this. I think organizations have a philosophy when it comes to drafting. Sometimes its big players, others its skill, maybe its Europeans, or OHL, etc...

I think habs focused too much on meatheads for a while. Guys like Tinordi Mac Crisp JDLR etc. Lots of big guys with NHL ready bodies, but Peewee level IQ.

The philosophy should be hockey IQ, then Skill, then speed.

I think a lot of those picks were reactions to the perception of the Habs as the smurfs in the early 2010s. Gomez, Gionta, Gallagher, Cammalleri...

 

[417]

Drafting can't be separated from development. Even in the top of the first round, "sure" bets don't pan out.

I never said drafting should be separated from development...

Not once... I've criticized the coaching consistently. Unless you're selectively filtering sections of my posts, I don't understand how you could have missed it.

Yakupov, Daigle, Stefan, Cleary... These weren't errors in drafting, they were talented players who didn't develop into what they had the potential for.

Semantics

Pointing a finger at one part of the equation is the epitome of excuse making and reflective of the loser mentality (and attitude) that has infected our organization under bergevin

Again...I don't understand how you would think I've just pointed the finger at one part of the equation.

 

[Runner77]

Whether it's the more of the drafting that's the problem or the coaching/development is not the main thing for me.

It's just acknowledging that both of those areas haven't been good, and it's not JUST under Bergevin's regime, you can go back under Gauthier as well and towards the end of Gainey's time.

Molson, we have a problem.

 

[scrubadam]

I think a lot of those picks were reactions to the perception of the Habs as the smurfs in the early 2010s. Gomez, Gionta, Gallagher, Cammalleri...

Agree 100%. Mentioned it in the Gainey thread. Individually Gio and Cammy were good pickups, but it stamped the SMURF stereotype on the habs that the felt they had to spend the next few years trying to get away from.

BG was maybe ahead of his time back then since today the game has opened up a lot more for the smaller skilled players. But back then it was more of a big mans league. Everyone wanted the next Lucic.