Leafs Management Thread: Shanahan says Maple Leafs in no rush for new GM

[BayStreetBully]

Dubas was taking some calls as was Shanny but that doesn't mean Dubas was making the final decisions . I know some of the younger people on this board love the idea of someone this age running the team but im not thrilled with the idea of a person with his limited experience as well zero NHL experience having the final say on any hockey matters.

My guess is Shanny told Dubas "take all initial calls on the Kessel deal, hear them out, but don't tell them anything other than 'I will discuss this with the others, and we will get back to you'." And then for all ongoing discussions, Shanny or Hunter probably took over.

If that is how it played out, I applaud Shanny for it. It helps build Dubas' credibility in the eyes of other teams by letting him be the initial point of contact, but still allows for the more "weathered" Shanny/Hunter to handle the actual negotiations.

 

[hobarth]

Grigorenko was supposed to be a top 5 pick in 2012 but he feel to #12 and I suspect Buffalo would have hoped that they hadn't wasted the pick on him so Bracco or any draftee dropping is usually very telling, not alway but usually.

Hunter choose players by their stats/talent without any acknowledgement of their ultimate suitability for NHL employment or at least it seems to me. It seemed very amateurish to me, you Daisy Jane and I could simply look at a players stats and deduce they have talent. Slow small talented players don't make it to the NHL all the time even tho they generally outscore their bigger peers. There are a variety of reasons for this but now even big slow players don't make the NHL.

Small players have little potential outside of their offensive potential, all teams prefer and have big guys as their 3rd and 4th liners because of physicality and effectiveness, if a high draft choice that is smaller doesn't make it offensively then you have a bust because they have little utility beyond their offense, fair probably not but it is what it is.

I agree that TO should have the best coaches possible but I get confused when the team is flooded by low end UFAs leaving little room for TO future to be coached by those superior coaches. Is TO now becoming a remedial destination for trading and isn't TO wasting a great resource by having the coaches coach the unwanted. I doubt players are ruined by being exposed early to the NHL, I think only the never would have been ready don't survive an early NHL introduction. If you go out of your way to fortify the team with the best coaches then get those coaches to coach your potential ASAP don't role out the old excuses like another year in the AHL won't hurt them. I thought that Kadri was actually wasted/maturity delayed by leaving him in the AHL, he could successfully coast in the AHL further ingraining his reliance on his talent rather than forcing him to become better. We and Kadri are paying for the sloppy manner Kadri was developed, the proper guidance in an environment that constantly challenged him might have sped up his development. He's 25 before he seriously enrolls in a physical conditioning program, why?

The way TO is populating the lineup is rationalized by old wives tales, we need a made in TO model mode of development, use the best people to develop our best prospects then having the best coaches now makes sense.

 

[Gabriel426]

Honestly, I will have no problem if Shanny comes out and appointed himself as GM right now or name Gretzky as GM or whoever, since this management is going to make decisions by committee. Thus it will just be another voice. The pros for doing that is ego, and pride will not come in play or at the very least, those factors will be at a minimum. The Cons is conflict, since people will always have different preferences and opinions.
Having said all that, I think the management team is doing well, not bc of the draft or the trade but mainly bc they are sending messages out there that they will stand by and protect their players, also, they are willing to challenge the media(Simmons and the like) if they make an untrue or far fetch statements. As for drafting and developing, that take time, and all players have different timeline. As fans we just need to be patience and see how it develops.

 

[Nithoniniel]

Grigorenko was supposed to be a top 5 pick in 2012 but he feel to #12 and I suspect Buffalo would have hoped that they hadn't wasted the pick on him so Bracco or any draftee dropping is usually very telling, not alway but usually.

Hunter choose players by their stats/talent without any acknowledgement of their ultimate suitability for NHL employment or at least it seems to me. It seemed very amateurish to me, you Daisy Jane and I could simply look at a players stats and deduce they have talent. Slow small talented players don't make it to the NHL all the time even tho they generally outscore their bigger peers. There are a variety of reasons for this but now even big slow players don't make the NHL.

Small players have little potential outside of their offensive potential, all teams prefer and have big guys as their 3rd and 4th liners because of physicality and effectiveness, if a high draft choice that is smaller doesn't make it offensively then you have a bust because they have little utility beyond their offense, fair probably not but it is what it is.

I agree that TO should have the best coaches possible but I get confused when the team is flooded by low end UFAs leaving little room for TO future to be coached by those superior coaches. Is TO now becoming a remedial destination for trading and isn't TO wasting a great resource by having the coaches coach the unwanted. I doubt players are ruined by being exposed early to the NHL, I think only the never would have been ready don't survive an early NHL introduction. If you go out of your way to fortify the team with the best coaches then get those coaches to coach your potential ASAP don't role out the old excuses like another year in the AHL won't hurt them. I thought that Kadri was actually wasted/maturity delayed by leaving him in the AHL, he could successfully coast in the AHL further ingraining his reliance on his talent rather than forcing him to become better. We and Kadri are paying for the sloppy manner Kadri was developed, the proper guidance in an environment that constantly challenged him might have sped up his development. He's 25 before he seriously enrolls in a physical conditioning program, why?

The way TO is populating the lineup is rationalized by old wives tales, we need a made in TO model mode of development, use the best people to develop our best prospects then having the best coaches now makes sense.

I could not disagree more with pretty much everything you mention in this post.

First of all, I find it weird that you equate their drafting policy with just stat-watching after a draft where they picked an unknown Lithuanian guy with zero official stats attached who seem to have a ton of potential. People watching the camp have reported that he seem to have the very same high-end talent that a few of our other high-profile picks.

Secondly, the idea that smaller skilled players don't make it often is a myth that needs to die. There is actually not one aspect of a prospect games that is as likely to bring them to the big league as skill. The vaunted "safe pick" of a NHL-sized body with established two-way game is actually not as safe as a highly skilled kid, regardless of stature. You want to get as much players that turn into NHLers as possible? Get the best combination of intelligence, skill and a good head at every position you draft.

Your view on team building seem outdated as well. More and more teams realize that stature isn't a requirement for defensive play, so you see plenty of teams starting to populate the lower part of their lineup with smaller players that can defend. Physicality isn't a requirement either, as evidenced by the closest thing we've got to a modern dynasty that also happen to be the least physical team in the league by a margin.

I have no idea what you are talking about with the UFAs. Toronto has acquired not "low end UFAs" and "the unwanted", but actually solid NHLers to populate their lineup. Why? Most likely because you don't hand an NHL job to prospects on a silver platter, you make them work for it.

Your talk about prospect development is illogical at best. You don't think an 18-year old being overmatched in physicality, skating, technical skill and know-how wouldn't have his development hindered? Have you ever been in a position where you are completely outmatched all the time? It kills confidence, which in itself is an important factor, and it gives you no time to develop skill of your own. Good luck trying to develop an offensive game when you don't have the puck, and when you do you don't have the time you need to execute.

So all these guys must never have potential from the start then, right? Because they don't actually develop their skills and physical attributes over years of practice?

You talk about coaches developing this, but coaches can only take what is already there and utilize it, and tell them how to utilize it. They can teach know-how, they can't put in the thousands of hours of training necessary for a prospect to develop the skills necessary to be an impact player, know-how or not.

Babcock said it himself, NHL is not a development league. You don't compete on the highest level only to make it all secondary to the learning curve of youngsters who might or might not be part of the teams future.

Personally I couldn't be happier with how this organization is run right now.

 

[Macman]

I could not disagree more with pretty much everything you mention in this post.

First of all, I find it weird that you equate their drafting policy with just stat-watching after a draft where they picked an unknown Lithuanian guy with zero official stats attached who seem to have a ton of potential. People watching the camp have reported that he seem to have the very same high-end talent that a few of our other high-profile picks.

Secondly, the idea that smaller skilled players don't make it often is a myth that needs to die. There is actually not one aspect of a prospect games that is as likely to bring them to the big league as skill. The vaunted "safe pick" of a NHL-sized body with established two-way game is actually not as safe as a highly skilled kid, regardless of stature. You want to get as much players that turn into NHLers as possible? Get the best combination of intelligence, skill and a good head at every position you draft.

Your view on team building seem outdated as well. More and more teams realize that stature isn't a requirement for defensive play, so you see plenty of teams starting to populate the lower part of their lineup with smaller players that can defend. Physicality isn't a requirement either, as evidenced by the closest thing we've got to a modern dynasty that also happen to be the least physical team in the league by a margin.

I have no idea what you are talking about with the UFAs. Toronto has acquired not "low end UFAs" and "the unwanted", but actually solid NHLers to populate their lineup. Why? Most likely because you don't hand an NHL job to prospects on a silver platter, you make them work for it.

Your talk about prospect development is illogical at best. You don't think an 18-year old being overmatched in physicality, skating, technical skill and know-how wouldn't have his development hindered? Have you ever been in a position where you are completely outmatched all the time? It kills confidence, which in itself is an important factor, and it gives you no time to develop skill of your own. Good luck trying to develop an offensive game when you don't have the puck, and when you do you don't have the time you need to execute.

So all these guys must never have potential from the start then, right? Because they don't actually develop their skills and physical attributes over years of practice?

You talk about coaches developing this, but coaches can only take what is already there and utilize it, and tell them how to utilize it. They can teach know-how, they can't put in the thousands of hours of training necessary for a prospect to develop the skills necessary to be an impact player, know-how or not.

Babcock said it himself, NHL is not a development league. You don't compete on the highest level only to make it all secondary to the learning curve of youngsters who might or might not be part of the teams future.

Personally I couldn't be happier with how this organization is run right now.

Well said.

 

[Joey Hoser]

Hunter choose players by their stats/talent without any acknowledgement of their ultimate suitability for NHL employment or at least it seems to me.

I don't believe someone could get to the position Hunter is in and have the reputation he has by being that face-palmingly stupid. I don't think you realize how stupid it would be to do that. It's just not realistic.

Gee, I wonder what's more likely. That Hunter is that stupid, or you've misinterpreted the situation?

 

[Drew75]

I could not disagree more with pretty much everything you mention in this post.

First of all, I find it weird that you equate their drafting policy with just stat-watching after a draft where they picked an unknown Lithuanian guy with zero official stats attached who seem to have a ton of potential. People watching the camp have reported that he seem to have the very same high-end talent that a few of our other high-profile picks.

Secondly, the idea that smaller skilled players don't make it often is a myth that needs to die. There is actually not one aspect of a prospect games that is as likely to bring them to the big league as skill. The vaunted "safe pick" of a NHL-sized body with established two-way game is actually not as safe as a highly skilled kid, regardless of stature. You want to get as much players that turn into NHLers as possible? Get the best combination of intelligence, skill and a good head at every position you draft.

Your view on team building seem outdated as well. More and more teams realize that stature isn't a requirement for defensive play, so you see plenty of teams starting to populate the lower part of their lineup with smaller players that can defend. Physicality isn't a requirement either, as evidenced by the closest thing we've got to a modern dynasty that also happen to be the least physical team in the league by a margin.

I have no idea what you are talking about with the UFAs. Toronto has acquired not "low end UFAs" and "the unwanted", but actually solid NHLers to populate their lineup. Why? Most likely because you don't hand an NHL job to prospects on a silver platter, you make them work for it.

Your talk about prospect development is illogical at best. You don't think an 18-year old being overmatched in physicality, skating, technical skill and know-how wouldn't have his development hindered? Have you ever been in a position where you are completely outmatched all the time? It kills confidence, which in itself is an important factor, and it gives you no time to develop skill of your own. Good luck trying to develop an offensive game when you don't have the puck, and when you do you don't have the time you need to execute.

So all these guys must never have potential from the start then, right? Because they don't actually develop their skills and physical attributes over years of practice?

You talk about coaches developing this, but coaches can only take what is already there and utilize it, and tell them how to utilize it. They can teach know-how, they can't put in the thousands of hours of training necessary for a prospect to develop the skills necessary to be an impact player, know-how or not.

Babcock said it himself, NHL is not a development league. You don't compete on the highest level only to make it all secondary to the learning curve of youngsters who might or might not be part of the teams future.

Personally I couldn't be happier with how this organization is run right now.

Haha ... he lost me the moment he called Hunter's drafting "amateurish".

 

[Daisy Jane]

To be fair - people have the right not to be sitting right with the lack of experience, and I know that a lot of people aren't happy with the stature of the players that we drafted, as if that is going to be the only type of people that we draft, period in life, or that trades won't happen , etc.

To me, I am trying not to analyze everything move by move because some moves truly won't be realised until years down the future. As it stands right now, the Shanagement's first year is "even" for me. the moves that they've done to get the organization at least level with the rest of the league is comforting, and they are doing their best to ensure that we're flush with talent - not belligerence, pugnacity, and testosterone.

I know people keep tossing out, "yeah they're well spoken, they look good in suits," that is all superficial. If Brian Burke was here, hair and all and he was doing the exact same things that Shanahan had done, I'd be just as excited. (conversely, vice versa, I'd be ranting and raving about Shanahan right now if he was doing the same things Burke/Nonis did).

I don't care how 'young' they are - and honestly, I do find it slightly insulting that people just think because Dubas isn't as "known" that people would just ignore him, or treat him lesser than. I have had positions where I was less seasoned as other people but I was above them and conference with similar team leaders, and I never once was treated like a 2nd class citizen, and I find it hard to believe that grown men would treat another grown man so. I will acknowledge connections etc, but it's not like Dubas (or Hunter) are Hermits. I'm sure they're building said connections.

I want my management team smart. they're not going to win every trade, they are going to stumble, not everything is going to take, but I am glad, for once, that this organization with all the resources that they have pumping through them, isn't just satisified with being status quo, or worst, being behind and thinking it's okay. They are going out there, making mistakes, getting messy, as well as making some serious strides. Hopefully it all pans out.

If there is a GM out there who can help that. I am all for it. if not, then I really don't want to get one for the sake of everyone being "happy" with an experienced GM, or someone who ran their paces, because, Hello. Jim Benning.

 

[burpsalot]

Small players have little potential outside of their offensive potential, all teams prefer and have big guys as their 3rd and 4th liners because of physicality and effectiveness, if a high draft choice that is smaller doesn't make it offensively then you have a bust because they have little utility beyond their offense, fair probably not but it is what it is.

Take a look at the list of Selke winners.

 

[Pookie]

I was in the not impressed with lack of management experience camp.

Consider me in the "willing to give these guys a shot camp" based on this offseason.

Trading for more draft picks. Signing many players with potential and risk to try out contracts, including Kadri. Trading Kessel. Creating competition throughout the roster. Landing experience in Babcock.

Sure, there are still risks here. The MLSE board room will want to see results and their contracts all expire before a rebuild should take hold. That could create pressure to speed it up.

But based on their restraint and calculated moves, I see no reason to be pessimistic with this current direction.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

All this management team has done to now, in the latest reincarnation of rebuilds or hybrid rebuild, is do what the Oilers have been trying for years. Build by the draft. I don't think it requires genius thinking to tank and build by the draft. If Shanahan's plan is indeed a slow, painful rebuild as we have been told it will be.

All we have for now is from JFJ, Burke, to Nonis. Is Another plan. It should not be declared a success until it is actually a success.

The core minus Kessel is still here, we have Babcock, perhaps the biggest asset we have added. This should account for a few more wins, and a change in culture.

But as for brilliant bright management? Tank and draft is not what I would consider as being brilliant, nor is it reinventing the wheel and thus should be lauded. Nor do we know if it will work or fail.

 

[Gutchecktime]

I don't think the Oilers drafted all that well outside of their top picks though, and they certainly have always had trouble convincing a lot of even "lesser UFAs" to take deals there without overpaying. They also haven't had a coach anywhere near as good as Babcock while they were rebuilding.

You can't just rely on accumulating high draft picks alone that's for sure. But I'm not concerned that's actually going to happen here.

 

[BayStreetBully]

I don't care how 'young' they are - and honestly, I do find it slightly insulting that people just think because Dubas isn't as "known" that people would just ignore him, or treat him lesser than. I have had positions where I was less seasoned as other people but I was above them and conference with similar team leaders, and I never once was treated like a 2nd class citizen, and I find it hard to believe that grown men would treat another grown man so. I will acknowledge connections etc, but it's not like Dubas (or Hunter) are Hermits. I'm sure they're building said connections.

I'm not sure why you find that insulting. The way other teams deal with Dubas- they wouldn't be mean to him, but just try and take advantage. It's not personal, just business.

 

[Shwaguy*]

I'm not sure why you find that insulting. The way other teams deal with Dubas- they wouldn't be mean to him, but just try and take advantage. It's not personal, just business.

His age would have nothing to do with him being a target to be taken advantage of.

 

[BayStreetBully]

His age would have nothing to do with him being a target to be taken advantage of.

Actually, for Dubas, everything would stem from age. He is an early 1st round pick. He has worldly talents, but is unproven in his craft. Why would the veteran GMs give him the type of respect given to other GMs who have already proven themselves capable of winning in battle?

Tell you what. If you think age means nothing, then get yourself the top law school graduate to negotiate your next legal problem with a grizzled 30 year veteran.

 

[burpsalot]

I'm not sure why you find that insulting. The way other teams deal with Dubas- they wouldn't be mean to him, but just try and take advantage. It's not personal, just business.

That's okay, I'm sure Dubas will take advantage of them if they underestimate him because of his age.

 

[BayStreetBully]

That's okay, I'm sure Dubas will take advantage of them if they underestimate him because of his age.

It's hard to acquire a non-lottery protected 1st round pick from the Penguins if they won't give it to someone they underestimate in the first place.

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

It's hard to acquire a non-lottery protected 1st round pick from the Penguins if they won't give it to someone they underestimate in the first place.

Shanahan was leading the charge on that one, not Dubas.

 

[BayStreetBully]

Shanahan was leading the charge on that one, not Dubas.

I used it to illustrate the point that you can't just take advantage of someone anytime you want.

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

I used it to illustrate the point that you can't just take advantage of someone anytime you want.

Ah okay.

 

[Joey Hoser]

I really don't think this a huge problem. A player's value to a team doesn't change based on the experience of the person on the end of the phone, and it's not like some GM is going to manipulate Dubas into giving them Marner for a second.

 

[Stand Witness]

It's hard to acquire a non-lottery protected 1st round pick from the Penguins if they won't give it to someone they underestimate in the first place.

But the veteran Brian Burke managed to give up 2 unprotected lottery 1sts.

 

[BayStreetBully]

But the veteran Brian Burke managed to give up 2 unprotected lottery 1sts.

1st round picks were traditionally unprotected. Maybe nowadays it makes more sense to lottery-protect picks with the rule changes, but everything is up for negotiation. But makes you wonder when Boston can get a non-protected pick out of San Jose (correct me if I'm wrong), but we can't do the same with Pittsburgh.

Although in the case of Brian Burke, I'd say it's more a case of veteran experience being necessary but not sufficient to be a master GM.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

Grigorenko was supposed to be a top 5 pick in 2012 but he feel to #12 and I suspect Buffalo would have hoped that they hadn't wasted the pick on him so Bracco or any draftee dropping is usually very telling, not alway but usually.

Over the years Detroit has made an absolute killing on the draft floor by doing the opposite of what you suggest. They pick up guys who fell beyond where they were normally projected and it has served them very well.

 

[Guy Boucher]

All this management team has done to now, in the latest reincarnation of rebuilds or hybrid rebuild, is do what the Oilers have been trying for years. Build by the draft. I don't think it requires genius thinking to tank and build by the draft. If Shanahan's plan is indeed a slow, painful rebuild as we have been told it will be.

The Oilers kicked off their rebuild in 2008 with 5 draft picks.

The Leafs picked 9 times this year and already have 11 picks next year.

Seems like a massive difference in strategy. Might want to rethink the fantasy that the Leafs are copying the Oilers.