TSN Radio Leafs Lunch interviews Brendan Shanahan and Dave Nonis (April 14, 2014)

[Commander Clueless]

you'd think that sooner or later the tide would have to change, even if it takes 50 years. other teams have changed. Chicago sucked for 20 years before they re-surfaced. And I think that happened as a result of a management change; the new owners cared to win. But the Leafs go through new owners a little more frequently, but the same problems gets passed from ownership to ownership with this franchise, it's like they're floating on the clouds way above the hockey team, and never really looking down to see what's happening on the ice, their heads are always in the clouds with their concentration focused anywhere else other than the well being of the Leafs. its like working for a huge corporation thats so big, no one knows who's running it or who's in charge, and the employees on the floor sit around scratching their heads every day asking "how does this company make any money with the way they operate?" Been there before. Seems to be the same way with the Leafs. No one knows who's really steering the ship, almost seems like no one's in charge, only that a few guys have "prominent" positions that are good for the cameras but they as well are just passengers onboard this huge money making machine with little ability to steer it.

This is either the turning point with Shanahan or it isn't. But everyone's waiting with renewed hope to see. Which keeps us all hooked again. Just like every year. Is this all a genuine change in management to finally turn the tide or is it another PR move to keep everyone hooked on the same old failed product

Exactly. Is Shanny the figurehead or does he actually represent a shift in attitude in management?

I want so badly to believe he'll make a difference for the team, but the pessimist in me says this is PR and nothing more.

I hope Shanahan proves me wrong and actually instills the "culture" he and Leiweke apparently want.

 

[ACC1224]

you'd think that sooner or later the tide would have to change, even if it takes 50 years. other teams have changed. Chicago sucked for 20 years before they re-surfaced. And I think that happened as a result of a management change; the new owners cared to win. But the Leafs go through new owners a little more frequently, but the same problems gets passed from ownership to ownership with this franchise, it's like they're floating on the clouds way above the hockey team, and never really looking down to see what's happening on the ice, their heads are always in the clouds with their concentration focused anywhere else other than the well being of the Leafs. its like working for a huge corporation thats so big, no one knows who's running it or who's in charge, and the employees on the floor sit around scratching their heads every day asking "how does this company make any money with the way they operate?" Been there before. Seems to be the same way with the Leafs. No one knows who's really steering the ship, almost seems like no one's in charge, only that a few guys have "prominent" positions that are good for the cameras but they as well are just passengers onboard this huge money making machine with little ability to steer it.

This is either the turning point with Shanahan or it isn't. But everyone's waiting with renewed hope to see. Which keeps us all hooked again. Just like every year. Is this all a genuine change in management to finally turn the tide or is it another PR move to keep everyone hooked on the same old failed product

Why would they need a PR move?

 

[hfman]

Exactly. Is Shanny the figurehead or does he actually represent a shift in attitude in management?

I want so badly to believe he'll make a difference for the team, but the pessimist in me says this is PR and nothing more.

I hope Shanahan proves me wrong and actually instills the "culture" he and Leiweke apparently want.

nice to see some like-minded views. apologies for rambling but its what i do lol. many management personnel in the past have used MLSE as a stepping stone (ie Dryden, JFJ, and so on) to get to bigger and better places for them as individuals. Is that what this is. Another high-profile gig for Shanny who will in a few years write this down on his resume and then move on to higher profile gigs elsewhere - they've all done it before him - so is he just the next passenger on that train - and then the next guy comes in behind him once he's gone and managing the province of ontario.. .. who might it be, Brodeur? You see where I'm going with this. And the only reason I see it this way is because I've seen this movie before. Is it any different with Shanny. If so, why. Whats to lead us to believe that somehow he will over-ride this corporations' inherited losing culture and turn the tide. Can one man just because his name is Shanahan come in here and be the catalyst this hockey team has been looking for for 50 years? Hard to bite on this one. I prefer to see it as a move that's been made a lot of times already; we've seen it before and am thinking we'll see it again 5 years down the road.. all while their hockey team sits either at the bottom or somewhere in the middle. how can you expect anyone to not be cynical.

 

[Daisy Jane]

Why would Shanahan leave the NHL league office, where he was being groomed for bigger/brighter things, or even take the Toronto position (because McKenzie said with Sather's future being up in the air, Shanny could have stayed in NY and Preside over the Rangers).

If this was a Leafs alumni, then yeah -maybe I'd go on the "PR" move and nothing more. Shanahan has no ties to Toronto other than being born here, and other teams were interested in hiring him (again Rangers, Calgary).

I get the whole being burned over and over again, but he hasn't done anything yet, so I'm not getting why it's doomy-gloomy. Even if it was a PR move - so? most leafs fans aren't buying it anyway. We're still for the most part (going by this board, twitter, and other media outlets) angry, cranky, and want change. Shanahan said, that Leafs fans aren't going to be mollified by words, they're going to be mollifed by action and winning, and he's going to get to work.

 

[Faltorvo]

I don't think that it was almost 50 years of complacency.

The Ballard Years - that [bad word, bad word] didn't flat out care about the team and wanted to make money, and not spend a dime.

Burns & Quinn era the teams were competitive. Now - were they remiss in not drafting properly. Yes. Were they complacent, no. Players that would have put them over the top weren't signing in Canada due to the Canadian peso at the time.

The JFJ/Peddie era. In all honesty, Peddie had to have been Ballard's long lost kid or something, because all he cared was about making money. again - complacency isn't the word I'd use. Being freaking stupid and idiotic - yes, but complacent? No. Peddie wanted to make money even when JFJ flat out said "this is how things are going to be after the lockout, this is how we'll look good." and he was told, "just get us to the playoffs."

Burke Era: i don't think you can use the word complacent here. (I'll refrain of the word I'd use apparently, I'm wrong in my assessment of Burke). but he was also impatient.

Nonis: was too slow.

again - the fact that people still believe that a cash cow machine like MLSE think they'll just be happy with 3 home games in the playoffs, in and out makes no sense and it just fits into this whole narrative that y'all want to believe. I think that impatience ruined this team, I think stupidity has ruined this team, but complacency - not the word I'd slap on the team.


So i find it hilarious that people are upset that instead of having a guy rushing in and declaring "I'm going to fix everything!!!" says "I'm going to take my time and see exactly what I can do to help." is getting labeled complacent. Because In my opinion - it's not just the team on the ice - it's the present (the Leafs) the present future [Marlies] the future, future (drafting), and the identity we want to give to the League.

that's not going to be a "poof! Presto-Changeo!" situation.

to the bolded


Oh DJ, I think your missing something here.

It's not the wraith of not getting past the first round that a gms/coachs need to fear from ownership


it's the ,not getting them "just the first round in" that draws the most dangerous ire.

 

[Faltorvo]

Why would Shanahan leave the NHL league office, where he was being groomed for bigger/brighter things, or even take the Toronto position (because McKenzie said with Sather's future being up in the air, Shanny could have stayed in NY and Preside over the Rangers).

If this was a Leafs alumni, then yeah -maybe I'd go on the "PR" move and nothing more. Shanahan has no ties to Toronto other than being born here, and other teams were interested in hiring him (again Rangers, Calgary).

I get the whole being burned over and over again, but he hasn't done anything yet, so I'm not getting why it's doomy-gloomy. Even if it was a PR move - so? most leafs fans aren't buying it anyway. We're still for the most part (going by this board, twitter, and other media outlets) angry, cranky, and want change. Shanahan said, that Leafs fans aren't going to be mollified by words, they're going to be mollifed by action and winning, and he's going to get to work.

After all these years and changes over and over and over again

I say this, no one attached to this organisation HAS EARNED the benefit of the doubt, from me.

especially when the person that hired you and his boss look to be nothing more then the same gaggle we have witnessed all these years.

Fast track this/quick fix this "JUST TO GET US INTO THE PLAYOFFS"


I mean all TL wants is "to get them going" that was his claim to fame at the presser and that's ALL TFC and the Raps have actually accomplished is to "get going" they have not done or EARNED anything yet.

At least some TFC and Raptor fans can hold their heads up with pride, they started to turn away from the entertainment product placed infront of them.

 

[Ari91]

leafs have been in no man's land for 50 years. and this years playoffs is a reminder of just how bottom feeding this franchise is. watched montreal last night and realized that even though they've been mediocre for a long time as well, they at least provide some excitement and make the playoffs every now and then. They have a decent team from season to season. The Leafs? 7 playoff games in 11 years. And we know how that rare treat ended. How bad is that, really? Some guys in here are 11 years older since the last time the leafs won a playoff series. Some guys have families and kids now. Thats a long, long time. We've had other "presidents" who came and went - Dryden for one - but then he left the position to go into politics instead - i don't know whether to laugh or cry. We just keep sitting on the sidelines and watch all these teams coming around full circle - during this 50 year drought we've seen teams like tampa bay suck, then win a cup, then suck, then be back in the race again this year. Teams like Anaheim sucked, then won a cup, then sucked, and are now competing again. Detroit keeps on winning. Pittsburgh. Chicago. On it goes. I was watching Tampa Bay last night and thought "hey, they're back in it again - I remember when they won that cup years ago".. well when they won the cup long time ago, the leafs sucked - and then when tampa bay disappeared for a while and became a bad team - the leafs still sucked - and now that tampa bay is back and competing again - the leafs still suck. All these teams have progressed over the years/decades. The Leafs? Suck. suck. suck. All the other teams are running laps around them. Other teams go into rebuilds, but then come alive again a few years later as they should- but the leafs just keep sucking and never ever surface. Tweak this and rebuild that it doesn't matter, the team is still just debris scattered everywhere. And to have this situation happen in one of the largest hockey markets on the planet is a great oxymoron to say the least, it's barely comprehensible. Something has been fundamantally wrong with the team's ownership over the decades and it's passed on from owner to owner. It never gets better. Not yet anyways.

Is Shanahan all of a sudden the savior here to turn around 50 years of comedy? Is he the new Cliff Fletcher of the 2010s? Don't know. Doubt it, with the way this franchise is being operated. He still has to report to "the board" like everyone else. And "the board" doesn't know if the Leafs are a hockey team or a curling team.. they're too busy watching their investments

All you gave me was a paragraph worth of excuses of why you're so ridiculously cynical but not one explanation as to why you aren't stupid for continuing to follow a team that you believe will never change.

No one is claiming Shanahan to be a saviour. People are simply looking at the change and being cautiously optimistic that it can lead to the right kind of turnaround that will see this team actually progress into annual playoff contenders and hopefully Cup contenders one day.

People here already getting down on Shanahan for not even a week's worth in his new role. Already speculating and assuming he's just some puppet. It's common decency to charge the faults of an individual to which he is guilty of, not that came at the hands of his predecessors. Years of suffering as a Leafs fan doesn't give people a free pass to be jerks about it and not get called out for it. It's not even about giving the guy the benefit of the doubt. It's not that hard for people to sit down, shut up and wait for something to happen before going off the rails about it instead of *****ing about all of the bad things they think will happen. One thing to be cynical, but to already assume failure because that's what history suggests is a very damaged mental approach but whatever, enjoy your misery I guess.

 

[Daisy Jane]

After all these years and changes over and over and over again

I say this, no one attached to this organisation HAS EARNED the benefit of the doubt, from me.

especially when the person that hired you and his boss look to be nothing more then the same gaggle we have witnessed all these years.

Fast track this/quick fix this "JUST TO GET US INTO THE PLAYOFFS"


I mean all TL wants is "to get them going" that was his claim to fame at the presser and that's ALL TFC and the Raps have actually accomplished is to "get going" they have not done or EARNED anything yet.

At least some TFC and Raptor fans can hold their heads up with pride, they started to turn away from the entertainment product placed infront of them.

and that's your right. i have no proof to see that Shanahan is all get into the playoffs.' let's be fair here. the playoffs means you have a chance, and we all want to win. so goal #1 should be get into the playoffs,and most people at MLSE or attached with them was only focused on goal #1.

the ultimate goal (duh) is to win the cup. but the management is so focused on #1 that they miss other steps to ensure that #1 is more frequent and Ultiamte Goal is achieved.

Shanahan hasn't even worked 7 days and he gets zero credit until he does something you like? okay sure - because that's fair. again - it really seems that most people

A: hate the fact we now have a president. why? because it's a another suit.

B: that the new suit isn't working fast enough for people.

C: that it's still going to be the same crap.

He's only been in in charge FOUR DAYS.
any significant change that we want for success is going to take at least at least longer than that. and again, i don't think it's just fixing the Leafs. it's fixing the Leafs in every and all aspects.

 

[richardn]

Shanahan brought in place is just a pr stunt to try and pull the wool over everyone's eyes that this is a good team and all is good now we got Shanny. I want to vomit at the thought of this team being iced next season with minimal changes and retooling. I have a feeling next season is going to to set us back another 5 plus years. We will be finishing out of the playoffs once again but picking out side of the top 10.

It pisses me off that I am not even the least bit excited to see this team hit the ice next year. I would rather see them ice the Marlies then this roster. This team is full of cancer. There isn't no treaent that's going to give it a clean bill of health.

It's going to be very interesting to see what Nonis does in the UFA market I am sure he will find another over paid under achieving bum.

Come this time next year we will all be crying that we missed out on McDavid but this time heads will role and people will finally shipped out but like usuall with this organization a day late and a dollar short.

I know this is a long rant but I am severely pissed as a Leafs fan that it sounds like not much change is coming.

 

[Durrr]

Shanahan brought in place is just a pr stunt to try and pull the wool over everyone's eyes that this is a good team and all is good now we got Shanny. I want to vomit at the thought of this team being iced next season with minimal changes and retooling. I have a feeling next season is going to to set us back another 5 plus years. We will be finishing out of the playoffs once again but picking out side of the top 10.

It pisses me off that I am not even the least bit excited to see this team hit the ice next year. I would rather see them ice the Marlies then this roster. This team is full of cancer. There isn't no treaent that's going to give it a clean bill of health.

It's going to be very interesting to see what Nonis does in the UFA market I am sure he will find another over paid under achieving bum.

Come this time next year we will all be crying that we missed out on McDavid but this time heads will role and people will finally shipped out but like usuall with this organization a day late and a dollar short.

I know this is a long rant but I am severely pissed as a Leafs fan that it sounds like not much change is coming.

You can't honestly have ever thought the team was going to actually re-rebuild lol. This is such a pessimistic and narrow minded view of the entire process, no team ever looks good until they are good. Look at the Ave's last year, they had some good pieces sure, but they were still god awful and nothing close to being a team. Granted the Ave's got some better pieces in more important positions, the leafs still have some solid players. We finally most likley have a young reliable goaltender, and young players in key positions such as D and center.

Also, calling the Shanny hire a PR stunt is a joke. The timing is defiantly that of a PR stunt, but the reality of the hiring is legitimate. Shanny isn't some washed up executive or Leafs alumni with no experience, this is a guy who was being prepped for big things in the league offices, and wanted by several teams. A proven winner who will do everything to win as a president of hockey ops.

If the leafs could just trade up in this draft, take one of the top center prospects, I see no reason why this team can't become competitive long term with it's current build, as long as we continue to add young talent as we go. The leafs have been awful at trading mature assets for younger ones, and that's why we are here today. Hopefully the organization learns from other teams, and can dump some guys like Lupul and Franson for picks/prospects because that's honestly where success starts. Look at the Ducks, trading Ryan away as they are a top team in the league. They got a top 10 pick from Ottawa and a NHL ready former first round pick. This is how team's sustain success, I hope the leafs are watching.

 

[613Leafer]

You can't honestly have ever thought the team was going to actually re-rebuild lol. This is such a pessimistic and narrow minded view of the entire process, no team ever looks good until they are good. Look at the Ave's last year, they had some good pieces sure, but they were still god awful and nothing close to being a team. Granted the Ave's got some better pieces in more important positions, the leafs still have some solid players. We finally most likley have a young reliable goaltender, and young players in key positions such as D and center.

The difference is the key players for the Avs going into this year were Duchene (22), Landeskog (20), ROR (22), MacKinnon (18), etc at the start of the year. Stastny and EJ are their only top players who are 25+.

For the Leafs it was Phanoof (28), Kessel (25), JVR (24), Bozak (27), Lupul (30), etc. Kadri, Gardiner, and Rielly as our only 23 and under players, and Rielly the only one with as much upside as those Colorado young players.

Sure, youre not good until youre good. But there are also bad teams with plenty of upside, and bad teams with the majority of their top players in their primes.

Edit: in case of confusion, those were ages at the start of the season, not current ages.

 

[richardn]

You can't honestly have ever thought the team was going to actually re-rebuild lol. This is such a pessimistic and narrow minded view of the entire process, no team ever looks good until they are good. Look at the Ave's last year, they had some good pieces sure, but they were still god awful and nothing close to being a team. Granted the Ave's got some better pieces in more important positions, the leafs still have some solid players. We finally most likley have a young reliable goaltender, and young players in key positions such as D and center.

Also, calling the Shanny hire a PR stunt is a joke. The timing is defiantly that of a PR stunt, but the reality of the hiring is legitimate. Shanny isn't some washed up executive or Leafs alumni with no experience, this is a guy who was being prepped for big things in the league offices, and wanted by several teams. A proven winner who will do everything to win as a president of hockey ops.

If the leafs could just trade up in this draft, take one of the top center prospects, I see no reason why this team can't become competitive long term with it's current build, as long as we continue to add young talent as we go. The leafs have been awful at trading mature assets for younger ones, and that's why we are here today. Hopefully the organization learns from other teams, and can dump some guys like Lupul and Franson for picks/prospects because that's honestly where success starts. Look at the Ducks, trading Ryan away as they are a top team in the league. They got a top 10 pick from Ottawa and a NHL ready former first round pick. This is how team's sustain success, I hope the leafs are watching.

Looks like Shanahan and Nonis's comments got you hook line and sinker.

 

[Brown Dog]

What happened to Leafs we saw from Game 2 of the playoffs last year to the 10-minute mark of the third period of Game 7?

That team legitimately played toe-to-toe with a Bruins team that won the conference and nearly won the Cup (and if not for a collapse where bad luck played a large role would have beaten those Bruins). They were arguably the better team for much of that series.

And since then we've upgraded the goaltending and added our most promising young player to the lineup (Rielly).

Thinking about that makes me think there is possibly some hope with this group, if the right coach can be brought in to implement a system that works and restore some sort of winning identity and consistency. Of course some significant changes also seem necessary, I think starting with Phaneuf.

If I think back to the two times in my lifetime when this franchise dramatically turned its fortunes around for the better, they came on the heels of a blockbuster trade (i.e., Gilmour and Sundin). I think this team needs that now.

 

[hullsy47]

Right.
Let Shanny do something before we declare it more of the same.

problem is if shanny decides to trade kessel or phaneuf ,,,,,,,,then half this board will crap a kitten ....we are lousy period ,,,,u can bet shanny is gathering intel from every hockey he knows ,,,,,,not just nonis,who IMO goes back to basically asst gm,
the key to me is ...would shanny have endorsed long term signings of phaneuf and extending kessel,or signing of clarkson ,,somebody here looks imcompetent ,and if shanahan still wholeheartedly endorses this core of leadership ,then so be it ,then the culture is fine ,but changing culture means getting your highest paid guys to be clutch and
care ...something tells me kessel hasnt missed a card game since theleafs got eliminated
.just rumors but yhe boy likes his cards i hear

 

[TheThrill81*]

Thinking about that makes me think there is possibly some hope with this group, if the right coach can be brought in to implement a system that works and restore some sort of winning identity and consistency. Of course some significant changes also seem necessary, I think starting with Kessel and/or JVR

More blockbuster potential there, and more reasonable than to suggest trading Phaneuf, which has to be one of the dumbest ideas by some people on here in a while.

Just for the record, I wouldn't want us to trade JVR or Kessel. But since we're Bipolar Nation and we turn on players at the drop of a dime, it's only fitting that I also make suggestions which have no merit.

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

More blockbuster potential there, and more reasonable than to suggest trading Phaneuf, which has to be one of the dumbest ideas by some people on here in a while.

Just for the record, I wouldn't want us to trade JVR or Kessel. But since we're Bipolar Nation and we turn on players at the drop of a dime, it's only fitting that I also make suggestions which have no merit.

I do get that trading Kessel does not make any sense unless we aim for a full rebuild and that is not going to happen. But calling the idea of trading Phaneuf dumb is dumb. He, unlike Kessel, does not have the talent to justify his high salary and actually hurts the team with his poor decisions making. I am not one of Phils biggest fans and was very much against trading for him at the time when we did but he is an elite talent and some one you can work with and get results. Dion on the other hand does not have the hockey IQ nor does he any longer have the physical attributes to make up for lack of brains so he is infact a burden for the team. And that Dion also represent the leadership of this team in a much higher regard then Kessel does it is pretty easy choice to make if you want to change culture and leadership on the team. He can change the music in some other teams locker room.

 

[Durrr]

Looks like Shanahan and Nonis's comments got you hook line and sinker.

Lol no I'm just not a complete pessimist about the situation, as I said in my post, even if this core doesn't work out, the amount of assets we could acquire for this core is ridiculous (and I mean just the older guys Dion, Kessel Lupul). As long as you have these guys, and they retain value, the organization is still taking steps forward. Just gota convert them into young assets when the time is right.

Also, the coaching has been awful. I'd love to see what this group can do under a quality coach when the deadweight in Franson/Lupul/Clarkson is shed.

 

[glue]

you'd think that sooner or later the tide would have to change, even if it takes 50 years. other teams have changed. Chicago sucked for 20 years before they re-surfaced. And I think that happened as a result of a management change; the new owners cared to win. But the Leafs go through new owners a little more frequently, but the same problems gets passed from ownership to ownership with this franchise, it's like they're floating on the clouds way above the hockey team, and never really looking down to see what's happening on the ice, their heads are always in the clouds with their concentration focused anywhere else other than the well being of the Leafs. its like working for a huge corporation thats so big, no one knows who's running it or who's in charge, and the employees on the floor sit around scratching their heads every day asking "how does this company make any money with the way they operate?" Been there before. Seems to be the same way with the Leafs. No one knows who's really steering the ship, almost seems like no one's in charge, only that a few guys have "prominent" positions that are good for the cameras but they as well are just passengers onboard this huge money making machine with little ability to steer it.

This is either the turning point with Shanahan or it isn't. But everyone's waiting with renewed hope to see. Which keeps us all hooked again. Just like every year. Is this all a genuine change in management to finally turn the tide or is it another PR move to keep everyone hooked on the same old failed product

Well..they're going to be playing with fire if this time again there is no serious change..lots of leaf fans I've talked to are at an all time low in terms of how they feel about this team...if they keep Carlyle, Nonis and Phaneuf as captain with some minor tinkering..there are definitely going to be some bandwagon jumpers..

 

[Durrr]

The difference is the key players for the Avs going into this year were Duchene (22), Landeskog (20), ROR (22), MacKinnon (18), etc at the start of the year. Stastny and EJ are their only top players who are 25+.

For the Leafs it was Phanoof (28), Kessel (25), JVR (24), Bozak (27), Lupul (30), etc. Kadri, Gardiner, and Rielly as our only 23 and under players, and Rielly the only one with as much upside as those Colorado young players.

Sure, youre not good until youre good. But there are also bad teams with plenty of upside, and bad teams with the majority of their top players in their primes.

Edit: in case of confusion, those were ages at the start of the season, not current ages.

For sure, we missed the boat on building through the draft so our ability to "contend" with this core may be shortened, but our players are still young. The ave's got it right with those players, and drafting Mac first over all was just icing on the cake. On the flip side, look at the Oilers, and how the core is an average age of 20-21, yet they can't play anything close to competitive hockey over a season.

This team has the ability to be a competitive hockey team, the idea that you have to have a core under 24 to win the cup is a false reality in this place. The bruins are a much older team then us, yet they contend year after year. We have way to much deadweight taken up by players that all want to do the same thing, score; but don't bring other aspects that are needed from these types of players.

Lupul/Clarkson/Franson/Raymond/Orr/Bozak and even Kadri (right now, lets see what happens next year), are all players that just don't fit if you want to be successful with the core of players we have.

Kessel's center needs to be a large physical center who can open up room for Kessel and allow him to cheat defensively, but Bozak is too weak on the puck and a passenger to achieve this (he had a great year, brings something in defensive abilities but still not cut out for that line).

Lupul did absolutely nothing this year expect provide poor secondary scoring at non crucial times.

Clarkson- just did absolutely nothing. Couldn't bring two-way play or possession, just a disaster really.

Raymond- Great price tag, but thinks he's Phil Kessel and is clearly not close to that type of player. Constantly gave up the puck on poor shot selection, not being a team player etc.

Orr- just did nothing.

Kadri- needs to play with an edge to be effective, we saw it last year, this year he seemed rather shallow in his play. Then again, look at his line mates, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt this season, he has a year left to prove himself.

Franson - Absolute defensive disaster, cost us minimum 1 goal single handedly per game. Offensive output easily replaced by Gardiner/Rielly, really has no spot on this team besides being a big right handed shot.



Sorry for the long type out, but can you guys honestly expect to win when half your roster is filled by players that have absolutely no role of importance on the team.They're called role/support players, but I don't see any important roles or support being given. Now I'm not letting the core off easy for poor play down the final stretch, but look at the players I just listed. Those are players playing serious minutes for this team, and they just don't cut it. At minimum, I'd say Franson/Lupul/Orr need to get off this team by next season. These guys need to be converted into young players or picks (not orr of course) so that players on the Marlies can start to compete for spots on the team. T

 

[Stephen]

I'm going to play the optimist devils advocate right now.

Right now we're still very upset and "blow everything up!" [even though we think it may or may not be true]. I think we can all agree that most of our assets aren't that very valuable, and those that do have some weight to them, we don't want to trade right away (Gardiner, Kadri) or at all (Bernier, Rielly) [and/or insert your particular guy here, say like JVR etc]

So. unlike some markets (Buffalo, Florida, the Islanders) that can go, yah we're going to start selling everyone off and get some pieces, the Leafs can't do that because we WILL be undersold. Also - Shanahan said constantly, he can't come in and just 'say' things, he needs to work and assess things. That doesn't mean he won't start blowing things up - he's just not going to say so as of yet.

Daisy, that's a good point.

Right now, there's a lot of emotion surrounding this team, and even if the right course of action is to ultimately "blow it up" and get rid of guys like Phaneuf, Franson, Lupul, Reimer, Clarkson, etc. I think Shanahan and Nonis need to stabilize the ship somewhat before holding the firesale. Yes, maybe some or all of those pieces will eventually need to go, but we're better off selling them in "hockey trades" down the road while they've regained some value and sanity has returned to the Leafs. Can't be selling low all the time. Gotta be smart.

We need to pull a Boston and find a Raycroft/Rask type deal that works for us, where we send someone who is terrible but perceived to have rebound potential for something better. I think the core sucks and does need to be dynamited but it has to be done so with intelligence.

 

[Brown Dog]

More blockbuster potential there, and more reasonable than to suggest trading Phaneuf, which has to be one of the dumbest ideas by some people on here in a while.

Just for the record, I wouldn't want us to trade JVR or Kessel. But since we're Bipolar Nation and we turn on players at the drop of a dime, it's only fitting that I also make suggestions which have no merit.

Why no merit to the very idea of trading Phaneuf? That's a bit much.

I can understand you disagreeing, but no merit? The guy has been the captain of three consecutive train wrecks, has some pretty obvious short-comings as a player (though also a lot of assets), and he's about to enter a 7-year contract that will end long after his prime years as a player.

I think most would agree significant changes are needed this off-season and those won't come by shuffling the deck chairs of the team's supporting cast.

 

[dimi78]

Why no merit to the very idea of trading Phaneuf? That's a bit much.

I can understand you disagreeing, but no merit? The guy has been the captain of three consecutive train wrecks, has some pretty obvious short-comings as a player (though also a lot of assets), and he's about to enter a 7-year contract that will end long after his prime years as a player.

I think most would agree significant changes are needed this off-season and those won't come by shuffling the deck chairs of the team's supporting cast.

If there's a hockey trade to be made that improves both the short term and the future of the team for any player you do it. That's not the question to ask however. The question is if that trade is out there to be made or not. Trade for the sake of trade is good way setting your team back way back when it involves your better players.

 

[MajorLeaf]

All you gave me was a paragraph worth of excuses of why you're so ridiculously cynical but not one explanation as to why you aren't stupid for continuing to follow a team that you believe will never change.

I agree with hfman on most of his points about the decades of mediocrity of the Maple Leafs. Why are fans cynical and still stupid for following this team?

An analogy to the Maple Leafs fan situation is akin to being married. A person marries their love for better or worse and will always be loyal to their spouse no matter what. At some point in the marriage the other half becomes abusive or even violent to the point other people are saying why stay with your abusive spouse, why not leave then?!

If this abusive treatment by Maple Leafs management continues where fans are told one thing and the results show the opposite then you will see people divorcing themselves from the team. There will be generation of children born in Toronto that will NOT become Maple Leafs fans because quite frankly the team is awful. They will become Penguins fans because of Crosby, or Chicago fans because of Toews and the cup runs, etc.

In the 1980's I saw a lot of teenagers cheer on the Oilers or the Habs because they were winners and never looked back. Do you know how many people during the late 1980’s and early 1990’s in Toronto became Habs fans because they won the Stanley Cup?

I know of MANY people that are Habs fans because the Habs have a pedigree of wining for decades. Only in the 2000's have the Habs not won the cup, but that can change sooner rather than later.

Look around Toronto with all those Montreal Canadiens car flags flying in Toronto. It is PATHETIC. You would not see any Maple Leafs car flags flying in Montreal ever. That is how bad it is in Toronto when our rival team has fans in OUR city taunting us for this teams failures. Heck we even have our rival fans feel sorry for us on how bad these multiple managers have messed up the Maple Leafs.

You ask why stay loyal to the Maple Leafs? The team now more than ever needs to earn the loyalty back from Maple Leaf diehard fans soon or eventually even the abused fan will divorce themselves from the Toronto Maple Leafs. It's only a matter of time.

No one is claiming Shanahan to be a saviour. People are simply looking at the change and being cautiously optimistic that it can lead to the right kind of turnaround that will see this team actually progress into annual playoff contenders and hopefully Cup contender’s one day.

This team will never be Cup contenders not with Larry Tanenbaum still calling the shots and the dysfunctional Board of Directors. Look at all the General Managers, coaches and players that have come through the revolving door under Tanenbaum since 2003. It is mind boggling that this many people can get it wrong.

The only one constant in this mess with all these different people is Tanenbaum. The ownership got worse with two rival companies owning each piece of MLS&E. Shanahan is just another face to the dysfunction that is MLS&E.

People here already getting down on Shanahan for not even a week's worth in his new role. Already speculating and assuming he's just some puppet. It's common decency to charge the faults of an individual to which he is guilty of, not that came at the hands of his predecessors. Years of suffering as a Leafs fan doesn't give people a free pass to be jerks about it and not get called out for it. It's not even about giving the guy the benefit of the doubt. It's not that hard for people to sit down, shut up and wait for something to happen before going off the rails about it instead of *****ing about all of the bad things they think will happen.

As stated above, with Tanenbaum still the Chairman of the Board, not much will change. Shanahan still has to report to his bosses it's not like he will have full autonomy on decisions.

It's not that hard for people to sit down and close our mouths to wait for something to happen before going off the rails? It has been decades of fans being patient, sitting down, quietly giving their hard earned dollars over this time on ticket prices along with concessions that are the highest in the league.

The fans have been VERY patient with the Maple Leafs to the point that abusive regimes in other countries have been toppled after their citizens could not take decades of abuse from their country's authority.

Look around at all the protests and violence around the world where the citizens had enough and decided to make a better world for themselves. Why Maple Leafs fans have not held protests outside the doors of the Air Canada Centre and why fans continue to pay money to see this awful product is mind boggling.

One thing to be cynical, but to already assume failure because that's what history suggests is a much damaged mental approach but whatever, enjoy your misery I guess.

Being a Maple Leafs fan is the definition of insanity, it's as if MLS&E has some hypnotic hold over the fan base to force them into paying for their mediocre product. Not only does the Maple Leafs have the audacity to force this fan base into icing this mediocre product for decades, MLS&E had the gull to hold this fan base hostage from allowing the NHL into having another team expand into the GTA.

The Maple Leafs have a monopoly for the GTA and the only way this changes if the NHL allows another team for fans to have choice into cheering for a team IN their city. Until then, Maple Leafs fans can only be cynical and pessimistic because there is no competition for the Maple Leafs to change their ways.

The Maple Leafs are literally holding the fans hostage if you want to cheer for a NHL hockey team within Toronto. The only other option is to divorce your allegiance and cheer for another team, which most loyal fans do not want to do, thus creating this hostage situation, cynicism and insanity among the loyal fan base.

 

[ULF_55]

... what are you not seeing.. we were in this identical spot years ago when fletcher came back and brought in burke... we were in the tank and said 'the future is bright, and we are going to "rebuild/retool/whatever lame catchword we want to use" and become a competitive team soon...but nothing ever happened except 7 or 8 more years of the same old losing culture... and here we are again.. with a new guy again... "we are going to sit down and patiently look at our team and what we need to do to get better for the future"... its like man i already saw this movie back when burke was hired... now it's just on repeat... and when the movie's done we STILL have a dumpster bin hockey team...

you're acting like you havent seen all this before... maybe you havent, don't know your age... but we've seen this show before.. and what will we all say when brendan is running for ontario premier in 5 years or he's fired or move on to some other role even further behind the scenes and some new guy takes his place.. then that new guy comes in and says "we're re-evaluating our team and will do what is necessary to become a competitive hockey club"... it's like this whole thing can be rewinded or fast-forwarded; we already know the storyline from start to finish... the hockey team will still be in in the bottom 5 at the end of this movie guys... unless like i said someone somewhere can force a change.. hey who knows maybe it's brendan

Either Burke didn't know what he was doing or he was just another puppet told that he was expected to make the playoffs like Ferguson was.

However they don't need to blow it up, but the core has failed continuously. You shouldn't keep rebuilding a house on a faulty foundation.

 

[Daisy Jane]

Daisy, that's a good point.

Right now, there's a lot of emotion surrounding this team, and even if the right course of action is to ultimately "blow it up" and get rid of guys like Phaneuf, Franson, Lupul, Reimer, Clarkson, etc. I think Shanahan and Nonis need to stabilize the ship somewhat before holding the firesale. Yes, maybe some or all of those pieces will eventually need to go, but we're better off selling them in "hockey trades" down the road while they've regained some value and sanity has returned to the Leafs. Can't be selling low all the time. Gotta be smart.

We need to pull a Boston and find a Raycroft/Rask type deal that works for us, where we send someone who is terrible but perceived to have rebound potential for something better. I think the core sucks and does need to be dynamited but it has to be done so with intelligence.

exactly!

and I think - the key is Phaneuf. Regardless of how people feel about him, there is that small window of opportunity to move him - taking the risk that we either A: suck, or B: rise up and commit harder. the law of averages is there to show that even if the Leafs were to crash and burn with a Phaneuf trade - there's also equal evidence that the Leafs could be fair to middling. And I'm not even saying this so we can get McDavid or Eichel or whomever.

Phaneuf is treading on being hated here. (well no. he's hated here - he's treading on being Larry Murphy'ed here). He's getting booed at the ACC - but what's more scary (or what would be scary for me if I were management) - he's being booed on the road. He was booed against Tampa, Florida & Ottawa on the road. People don't like the contract that he's signed and everyone is like he's a clear #2. We're so cap-strapped - we're not going to be able to bring in a clear #1 to support him. As well as Gardiner/Rielly are and are going to be - they aren't going to play well enough to support him.

The Management can not afford a full Larry Murphyification to happen. To which I'd say I'd use Phaneuf to move up in this draft. - and move up all the Marlies' players to come up and let everyone grow together as a unit. let them make mistakes together, and then they can grow together. I've been saying this for months - our core, while young - is also on the wrong trend:

Our defense (our strength - ironic, I know) is too young right now. Gardiner isn't ready to make that step, Rielly is not ready to make that step,Gunnarson is good but playing not in the right position, Percy, MacWilliam, Granberg haven't moved up - but that small sample of Granberg breaking up a four on one without freaking out, playing the right player, and no goal was scored, leaves me to believe he's going to be okay.

Our Forwards are entering primes - the younger sets are JVR, Kadri, Holland, right now. so by the time our defense is going to be set to go (regardless of who we help supplement, we're still not ready) we're going to be in trouble again.

so I'd trim off Phaneuf (and take whatever happens), let other 'big' pieces go - supplement with marlies, and smart UFA signings. aka. wait say 2-3 weeks, and then get the players that you can get 1-2 years for say 2-3 million dollars. Support the youngsters, and then get a coach that can nurture them.

It might be ugly next season [so it works in our favour]. it could be a bit ugly the year after - but it should be enough time to let everything sync up with smart drafting & smart UFA signing (because to be fair - we can trade well). we're good to go.